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Dennis Noyes on spec ECU

Joined Feb 2006
2K Posts | 0+
Ireland
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/42199/


Some of you may have seen this before, some not. It's not breaking news, but I came accross it today and thought I'd post it as it's very topical. I have to admit it's got me challenging my own opinions on the electronics issues. It makes sense that the manufacturers won't like it and to an extent I thought that would be enough to ensure the status quo. But it appears not. I'm still of the opinion that there are issues regarding how a single type ECU might work with different engine layouts and firing orders.

Still, aside from the technical, it's an interesting read. Some insight into the rule-making process.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jan 8 2008, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/42199/


Some of you may have seen this before, some not. It's not breaking news, but I came accross it today and thought I'd post it as it's very topical. I have to admit it's got me challenging my own opinions on the electronics issues. It makes sense that the manufacturers won't like it and to an extent I thought that would be enough to ensure the status quo. But it appears not. I'm still of the opinion that there are issues regarding how a single type ECU might work with different engine layouts and firing orders.

Still, aside from the technical, it's an interesting read. Some insight into the rule-making process.
My problem is that I think ezpeleta was largely responsible for the 2007 rule changes, whatever the theoretical process is supposed to be, and I am not confident of his ability to fix anything.

I agree with you that it is getting hard to ignore the anti-electronics case. I know you can't at all compare a ferrari (semi)road car with a race bike, but ferrari themselves are apparently now claiming that a good driver can lap fiorano within 1.5 seconds of michael schumacher in the new 430 scuderia with electronics developed by the aforesaid schumacher. The technology seems to be advancing rapidly.
 
the sooner they jetison tc the better imo. controll back to the rider... let thier brains & wrists do the job!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jan 8 2008, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My problem is that I think ezpeleta was largely responsible for the 2007 rule changes, whatever the theoretical process is supposed to be, and I am not confident of his ability to fix anything.

I agree with you that it is getting hard to ignore the anti-electronics case. I know you can't at all compare a ferrari (semi)road car with a race bike, but ferrari themselves are now claiming that a good driver can lap fiorano within 1.5 seconds of michael schumacher in the new 430 scuderia with electronics developed by the aforesaid schumacher. The technology seems to be advancing rapidly.
I'm not convinced that Ezpeleta was behind the 2007 rule changes. The manufacturers (MSMA) were for the 800cc rule and the reduction in fuel capacity.
As far as the tyre thing goes, I can't imagine it was Michelin that started it all off....

See "Burgess defends Rossi's tyre move" post 84 for how the votes etc all work. (BTW - how do you link to other threads?)
 
Traction control, Wheelie control, Launch control....
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WTF....lets just sit the riders in the grandstands with remotes to control the bikes..that'll keep'm safe.
<




Another thing that has not come up nor been reported about is the tire control thing...the most ridicules thing about the rule as it stands is choosing a tire BEFORE you even get on the track
<
....thats plain ....... stupid... they should AT LEAST be able to run the 2 practices THEN pick the tires to use in Q and the race...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 8 2008, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not convinced that Ezpeleta was behind the 2007 rule changes. The manufacturers (MSMA) were for the 800cc rule and the reduction in fuel capacity.
As far as the tyre thing goes, I can't imagine it was Michelin that started it all off....

See "Burgess defends Rossi's tyre move" post 84 for how the votes etc all work. (BTW - how do you link to other threads?)So the seven are, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati, Aprillia, Derbi and KTM? Did Team KR ever get any input to the desicion making process as a manufacturer, or are they just covered under IRTA?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 7 2008, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I appreciate what you are saying about governing bodies maintaining neutrality, however Dorna is not the governing body in motogp. They do of course have influence on what happens - there are 4 votes, one for the FIM, one for IRTA (the teams), one for the manufacturers (MSMA) and one for Dorna. (sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but...)

If all the seven MSMA members vote for or against any technical proposal their vote cannot be overridden, ie the MSMA can unilaterally enact or veto anything technical regardless of the FIM, IRTA and Dorna.[/b] If, however, one or more members of the MSMA votes against the rest, then the MSMA vote is classed as a simple "Yes" or "No" and can be overridden. In the event of a tie, Dorna does have the deciding vote.yamaka, you seem to know your way around the politics, could you see any of the main five manufacturers voting to re-write the rules on electronics when their street bike sales are becoming more and more technology driven?

And if Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Ducati all vote against a spec ECU where does that leave Aprillia, Derbi and KTM? Would they then hold the 'balance of power' or how does that work? It all has the potential to become very protracted, and very interesting.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jan 8 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So the seven are, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati, Aprillia, Derbi and KTM? Did Team KR ever get any input to the desicion making process as a manufacturer, or are they just covered under IRTA?

yamaka, you seem to know your way around the politics, could you see any of the main five manufacturers voting to re-write the rules on electronics when their street bike sales are becoming more and more technology driven?

And if they all vote against a spec ECU where does that leave Aprillia, Derbi and KTM?

Would they then hold the 'balance of power' or how does that work? It all has the potential to become very protracted.
Skidmark, it is not going to be protracted.

As you already pointed out the seven manufacturers include Aprilia, Derbi and KTM, so if they vote against the other MSMA elements then the MSMA vote is just one amongst four.

This means that if the FIM and Dorna decide they want control ECUs but IRTA and MSMA disagree, then if Manufacturers such as KTM want a control ECU then the voting system (Dorna getting the deciding vote) will cause that to happen....
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jan 8 2008, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Traction control, Wheelie control, Launch control....
<


WTF....lets just sit the riders in the grandstands with remotes to control the bikes..that'll keep'm safe.
<




Another thing that has not come up nor been reported about is the tire control thing...the most ridicules thing about the rule as it stands is choosing a tire BEFORE you even get on the track
<
....thats plain ....... stupid... they should AT LEAST be able to run the 2 practices THEN pick the tires to use in Q and the race...
Good point. I have already posted my concerns about this. Many of the changes to the rules for 2007 were allegedly for "safety". How can it be "safer" to pick tyres before a wheel has turned at a circuit, especially at a new or completely resurfaced track.

My answer to the tyre problem is to have Michelin, Bridgestone, Dunlop and even Pirrelli bring a tyre truck to each race. All teams could then buy each tyre for maybe $1 and try it. If it was not to they're liking then they'd go bck to the trucks and buy some more. This would be REAL competition between manufacturers. Sure, each would want to produce a tyre that the best rider of the time could win one and so they'd have a real tyre war on their hands. Be it Stoner, Rossi or Pedrosa; Ducati, Yamaha or Honda, they'd be producing the best tyres they could. And we. the road rider, would seriously benefit....
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 8 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My answer to the tyre problem is to have Michelin, Bridgestone, Dunlop and even Pirrelli bring a tyre truck to each race. All teams could then buy each tyre for maybe $1 and try it. If it was not to they're liking then they'd go bck to the trucks and buy some more. This would be REAL competition between manufacturers. Sure, each would want to produce a tyre that the best rider of the time could win one and so they'd have a real tyre war on their hands. Be it Stoner, Rossi or Pedrosa; Ducati, Yamaha or Honda, they'd be producing the best tyres they could. And we. the road rider, would seriously benefit....
now would'nt this be interesting....
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 8 2008, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As you already pointed out the seven manufacturers include Aprillia, Derbi and KTM, so if they vote against the other MSMA elements then the MSMA vote is just one amongst four.

This means that if the FIM and Dorna decide they want control ECUs but IRTA and MSMA disagree, then if Manufacturers such as KTM want a control ECU then the voting system (Dorna getting the deciding vote) will cause that to happen........, there are actually eight
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Sorry I should have been more specific. On what grounds are Aprillia, Derbi and KTM entitled to vote on regulations in a class that they do not currently race in? Surely this gives them the power of veto or a balance of power that isn't fair.

Ok, indulge me here for one moment. Let's say Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Ducati all vote unilaterally against a spec ECU. In theory, that should be the end of it. But if the current rules hold true, then all Ezzy has to do is persuade Aprillia, Derbi or KTM to vote for a spec ECU and he's still in business. So the balance of power is in the hands of a manufacturer of a 2-stroke machine, not racing in the motogp class, and therefore suffering no consequence as a result of their vote. Hardly fair, is it?

Does that not make the power of the MSMA to unilaterally enact or veto anything technical regardless of the FIM, IRTA and Dorna, completely redundant?

There must be some sort of provision for that. Do you see my point?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Jan 8 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...., there are actually eight
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Sorry I should have been more specific. On what grounds are Aprillia, Derbi and KTM entitled to vote on regulations in a class that they do not currently race in? Surely this gives them the power of veto or a balance of power that isn't fair.

Ok, indulge me here for one moment. Let's say Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Ducati all vote unilaterally against a spec ECU. In theory, that should be the end of it. But if the current rules hold true, then all Ezzy has to do is persuade Aprillia, Derbi or KTM to vote for a spec ECU and he's still in business. So the balance of power is in the hands of a manufacturer of a 2-stroke machine, not racing in the motogp class, and therefore suffering no consequence as a result of their vote. Hardly fair, is it?

Does that not make the power of the MSMA to unilaterally enact or veto anything technical regardless of the FIM, IRTA and Dorna, completely redundant?

There must be some sort of provision for that. Do you see my point?
AFAIK there are seven members of the MSMA - not sure who loses out.

What possible pressure could Dorna put on members with no bikes in Motogp? "We're going to get rid of two strokes" perhaps - already the plan. So what could Dorna do to coerce the non MotoGP manufacturers to their way of thinking. Very little I'd have thought. So you'd end up with the current Motogp protagonists and a couple of hopeful future Motogp manufacturers deciding on the technical implications for the future.

I have heard that the manufacturers don't want a control ECU. If this is the case then all Rossi's influence over Ezpeleta will be useless
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jan 8 2008, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the sooner they jetison tc the better imo. controll back to the rider... let thier brains & wrists do the job!


^^^^ +++++ 2000000
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 8 2008, 06:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not convinced that Ezpeleta was behind the 2007 rule changes. The manufacturers (MSMA) were for the 800cc rule and the reduction in fuel capacity.
As far as the tyre thing goes, I can't imagine it was Michelin that started it all off....

See "Burgess defends Rossi's tyre move" post 84 for how the votes etc all work. (BTW - how do you link to other threads?)

Read Noyes thoughts on how things work and "how things work" in his other writings. Dorna runs the show. The IRTA is irrelevant and the FIM have given Dorna it's blessing for financial reasons. MSMA is the only check on Dorna's power but they are outnumbered and they are in competition with one another so they rarely organize to block any changes.

That's a composite of Noyes' thoughts on the matter, he used to work for Dorna.

All I'm trying to say is, Ezy is very much in control of what is happening imo. The MSMA is the only other vote with any significance (de facto significance) but the MSMA is comparatively weak. I know you only need 1 filibuster to hold up tech legislation, but it seems that something within the MSMA is not functioning properly.

Why do I think the MSMA is broken? I find it hard to believe that the MSMA would allow 3 different formulas to be run in a 7 year spread.The change to 4-strokes makes sense b/c is correlates with their production machines. But the change to 800s has been nothing but expense for expenses sake. I can't imagine the theoretical reduction in tire expense offset the cost of new bike development.

Noyes has said before, and rightly so that racing dies when the fans believe the outcome has become predictable. So the change to 800s makes sense from a promotion perspective (assuming you incorrectly judge the impact on the spectacle). After 2005 no one anticipated that 2006 would be so close but Dorna had already jumped the gun and made a move to 800s.

Dorna have made the same assumption twice now. They seem to believe in the face of great change, that racing will more or less remain the same. The incompetence required to make that mistake, and to make it twice is unfathomable.

What I find even more egregious that Dorna once again are making rules to bail themselves out of a rules related jam. I don't think there is any doubt they were behind the spread of the RC211V to multiple riders. There is no doubt they were behind the move to 800s with the idea that it would make more young riders immediately competitive. Now they are handing Rossi tires to reverse the moves they made to help people compete with him.
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As a result of the 800s, big market riders have suffered greatly (Rossi and Hayden) while riders with relatively little pull have been greatly escalated (Stoner, Hopper, Vermeulen). I suspect the stock ECU is a result of Hayden's fall from grace as well as Rossi's. Many people wouldn't suspect that, but outside of Rossi, I'm pretty confident Hayden is the only other rider with the ability to capture a large North American fan base even before he was champ.

I think it's obvious that Dorna, and Dorna alone are running the show (outside of Fiat Yamaha, do you think anyone in the IRTA or MSMA really care what happens Rossi?). I think the stock ECU will go through if the fans want it, b/c the manufacturers don't care if they get to drop their electronics budget. They can develop TC and such more slowly and more cheaply with their production development budget.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jan 8 2008, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Traction control, Wheelie control, Launch control....
<


WTF....lets just sit the riders in the grandstands with remotes to control the bikes..that'll keep'm safe.
<

Excellent.


I like the idea of technology progressing for the consumer, but some how it must be done in a way to keep the control in the hands of the rider to keep the racing exciting.

Oh, did anybody notice some of what was said about the tire issue? I think it confirms again (as if I needned more proof) that there was some shady underdealings going on.

I just had a thought: Is it possible that giving Rossi the Bstones this year was just a quick fix and they intend to go to a single tire in the near future to go along with some electronics restrictions?

BTW: Rainey, Mamola, and Roberts are all right in this article. I also found myself agreeing with what Rossi had to say about traction control. (Yes, news flash, I'm not a Rossi-basher just because I point out that the tire issue played out stinking of foul play).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jan 8 2008, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Traction control, Wheelie control, Launch control....
<


WTF....lets just sit the riders in the grandstands with remotes to control the bikes..that'll keep'm safe.
<


I'm angry at Dorna and the Governing Body that they saw this coming and did .... all.

Now to take this away or change thing will be difficult for the teams and they will rebel.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jan 8 2008, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now to take this away or change thing will be difficult for the teams and they will rebel.
Did the F1 teams rebel?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 8 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did the F1 teams rebel?

I think your always gonna get a split decision on any big issue... and i think F1 teams either take it or leave, life goes on.

The thought of Honda or another big manufacturer even threatening to leave Motogp, Dorna will listen to them.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jan 9 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm angry at Dorna and the Governing Body that they saw this coming and did .... all.

Now to take this away or change thing will be difficult for the teams and they will rebel.

But it was part and parcel of 4 strokes when it came in ..... one of the major problems wiith why racers liked 2 strokes and not 4 strokes was the fact that when you shut the throttle the 4 strokes felt like you threw a brick in the spokes and the thing was slowing too much ...... the way to get them feeling better was via the slipper clutch and electronics. to make the engine and bike feel more "2 strokey". I think in reality Dorna are a marketting company and unfortunately are currently caught up in the "excuses for Rossi campaign". Ok I can justify Rossi wanting Brigestones but for Rossi to complain about "electronics" I find ridiculous, manipulative and glory hunting.

Ridiculous because fast engines use " electronics",

Manipulative because it plays on the gullibility of his own fans ie. Rossi calls Stoner the "King of the TC generation" which the fans lap up, as is evidenced on here. Somehow it kinda distracts from the fact hat Rossi was perhaps the first guy out there using a lot of the "electronics". But ok I am also willing to accept that maybe Rossi himself did not mean what the fans imply ...... maybe he really does mean that Stoner is better than him with modern spec. bikes irrespective of whether he won 5 times or not. Perhaps he never really felt at home on a 4 stroke either??? ..... but thats also odd when we consider 2006 was stoner's first year ever on a 4 stroke.

Glory Hunting ..... it implies Rossi's wins were some kind of "pure" ..... "un-tainted by TC"
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... wins
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jan 8 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another thing that has not come up nor been reported about is the tire control thing...the most ridicules thing about the rule as it stands is choosing a tire BEFORE you even get on the track
<
....thats plain ....... stupid... they should AT LEAST be able to run the 2 practices THEN pick the tires to use in Q and the race...

I think that is changed for this season. At least the proposal were more tires and picking them after the first practice (or two).
Add that there is no restrictions on wet tires, only slics and we have all in all a much better rule this year.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 9 2008, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that is changed for this season. At least the proposal were more tires and picking them after the first practice (or two).
Add that there is no restrictions on wet tires, only slics and we have all in all a much better rule this year.
Yes, more tyres (18 front 22 rear), but they still have to pick them before the start of a weekend.

However : "Whenever a new circuit is introduced in the MotoGP calendar for the first time or whenever an existing circuit is totally resurfaced, then a tyre test of a maximum of 2 days of duration must be organised at that circuit a minimum of 4 weeks prior to the race. This test will be open to all tyre and motorcycle manufacturers competing in the MotoGP class, but no rider designated by a MotoGP team will be permitted to take part in these tests."

see this for full details :
LINK
 

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