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beefsupreme · Mar 19, 2012

“Look at this bike. It costs millions but the fans can’t see any of the stuff that costs so much. If they can’t see it, what good is it?” -- Kenny Roberts

I'm with Lex and K.. If you really are a purist, you should have tuned out with the introduction of the control tire; to continue to watch and still complain is simply posturing.

povol · Mar 19, 2012

Beef Supreme said:
“Look at this bike. It costs millions but the fans can’t see any of the stuff that costs so much. If they can’t see it, what good is it?” -- Kenny Roberts

I'm with Lex and K.. If you really are a purist, you should have tuned out with the introduction of the control tire; to continue to watch and still complain is simply posturing.

You can see it in the stopwatch, and if performance had gone backwards with the control tire { which it didint }, that is exactly what i would have done, just like i did with Indy Car, and AMA. I simply have no interest in paying to see what i have already paid to see a decade ago. I faithfully went to 4-5 AMA Superbike races a year, for years. In a lot of those years, i knew how it was going to play out, and couldnt have cared less. It was only when they took me back 10 years in performance that they lost me, and thousands like me as paying customers.

mh_kingcobra · Mar 19, 2012

basspete said:
I said it at the time, Marco got shafted big time last year for having the balls to fight against Spencer, Jorge an that we prick on the Honda. Marco did nothing more dramatic than any of the above, and indeed Vale has done during the early days of their career. The only one who didn't do it more than once was the wee Repsol prick, and the Hayden 06 incident was the first and last time he actually pulled an overtake in motogp.

Could you imagine these guys in 500s against Schwantz, Doohan or Rainey? Watch how those guys raced, even ....... Criville could mix it when needed. The wee Repsol guy would not have got on a 500 in the day.

I really like Dani Pedrosa and I'm his fan but I'm not lying to myself. Half of the Le Mans accident last year was because of the strange way Pedrosa acts when he gets overtaked by riders other than Lorenzo and Casey. He freaks out every time someone gets him and makes some stupid moves. Back in Le Mans Pedrosa couldn't handle some few laps with Marco in front of him so he had to stupidly exit that last corner before the accident so fast and overtake someone like Marco from the inside. Well everybody knows bad things happen when you get that close to the SuperSic. He also did some other ........ moves when Spies overtook him in Jerez last year and I can assure you if Spies ended that race completely there was no way Pedrosa could take back his position.

michaelm · Mar 19, 2012

povol said:
You can see it in the stopwatch, and if performance had gone backwards with the control tire { which it didint }, that is exactly what i would have done, just like i did with Indy Car, and AMA. I simply have no interest in paying to see what i have already paid to see a decade ago. I faithfully went to 4-5 AMA Superbike races a year, for years. In a lot of those years, i knew how it was going to play out, and couldnt have cared less. It was only when they took me back 10 years in performance that they lost me, and thousands like me as paying customers.[/left][/left]

I don't like the 800s for other reasons, mainly that "one line" was mandated by the fuel economy nature of the formula, but if there has been revisionism by some of the successful participants in that formula there has certainly been revisionism about what preceded it. There was one year of fantastic racing with multiple potential winners in 2006. 10 of the last 11 championships prior to that year were won by 2 blokes, including 6 (of the last 7) 500 championships, and all 4 other 990 championships, and mostly in a fairly dominant fashion as opposed to 3 different riders and 3 different manufacturers winning the 5 championships of the 800 formula.

mylexicon · Mar 19, 2012

povol said:
You can see it in the stopwatch, and if performance had gone backwards with the control tire { which it didint }, that is exactly what i would have done, just like i did with Indy Car, and AMA. I simply have no interest in paying to see what i have already paid to see a decade ago. I faithfully went to 4-5 AMA Superbike races a year, for years. In a lot of those years, i knew how it was going to play out, and couldnt have cared less. It was only when they took me back 10 years in performance that they lost me, and thousands like me as paying customers.[/left][/left]

Why were you watching SBK in the first place? It has basically always been slower than MotoGP. Prototype bike racing has always been slower than prototype car racing.

All you've told us is that the manufacturers need to rebrand, reconcept, and reboot every 10 years to keep you entertained.

povol · Mar 19, 2012

mylexicon said:
Why were you watching SBK in the first place? It has basically always been slower than MotoGP. Prototype bike racing has always been slower than prototype car racing.

All you've told us is that the manufacturers need to rebrand, reconcept, and reboot every 10 years to keep you entertained.

Because unlike you and others, i have the ability to differentiate between classes, and enjoy them for what they are. I like every form of bike racing, but i have an understanding that as the machines advance, so do margins of victory. Gp would be much better off if fair weather fans understood the sport, and quit trying to turn it into something we already have. It makes zero sense.

mylexicon · Mar 19, 2012

povol said:
Because unlike you and others, i have the ability to differentiate between classes, and enjoy them for what they are. I like every form of bike racing, but i have an understanding that as the machines advance, so do margins of victory. Gp would be much better off if fair weather fans understood the sport, and quit trying to turn it into something we already have. It makes zero sense.

Is that why I have to explain the difference between SBK, SS, and SStk standards to you? or AMA vs BSB?

The margin of victory goes up with the "openess" of the formula, not the advancement. If everyone drove a McLaren MP, F1 would be advanced, and the racing would be relatively close. If I wrote an unlimited formula for stock production bikes (5,000 units produced) on stock road-legal tires, the margins between the different types of bikes would be enormous even though they are just low-tech stock nails.

Advancement and margin of victory are not related. You just read the Paolo Flammini article where he said that the manufacturers sell very different SBKs, and they need extensive modification to reach parity.

I also don't care that much about margin of victory, but if the racing is boring, the formula had better be open. Open formulas usually attract a wide variety of participants. The GP formula is not open, and MotoGP has only 3 factories. The situation cannot be denied, nor can it be blamed on casual fans, especially since fuel-limiting and naturally-aspirated displacement rules killed Group C in about 18 months. Motorcycles are not sports car prototypes, but the fundamentals of ICE powertrain are basically the same.

povol · Mar 20, 2012

mylexicon said:
Is that why I have to explain the difference between SBK, SS, and SStk standards to you? or AMA vs BSB?

The margin of victory goes up with the "openess" of the formula, not the advancement. If everyone drove a McLaren MP, F1 would be advanced, and the racing would be relatively close. If I wrote an unlimited formula for stock production bikes (5,000 units produced) on stock road-legal tires, the margins between the different types of bikes would be enormous even though they are just low-tech stock nails.

Advancement and margin of victory are not related. You just read the Paolo Flammini article where he said that the manufacturers sell very different SBKs, and they need extensive modification to reach parity.

I also don't care that much about margin of victory, but if the racing is boring, the formula had better be open. Open formulas usually attract a wide variety of participants. The GP formula is not open, and MotoGP has only 3 factories. The situation cannot be denied, nor can it be blamed on casual fans, especially since fuel-limiting and naturally-aspirated displacement rules killed Group C in about 18 months. Motorcycles are not sports car prototypes, but the fundamentals of ICE powertrain are basically the same.

Thanks, i needed a chuckle this morning.

beefsupreme · Mar 20, 2012

mh_kingcobra said:
Back in Le Mans Pedrosa couldn't handle some few laps with Marco in front of him so he had to stupidly exit that last corner before the accident so fast and overtake someone like Marco from the inside.

Pedrosa passed on the back straight and entered the turn ahead of Simoncelli. Maybe he should have let Simoncelli go (he didn't have Simoncelli's pace at that point), but Pedrosa didn't do anything wrong with his lines at that turn.

mh_kingcobra · Mar 20, 2012

Beef Supreme said:
Pedrosa passed on the back straight and entered the turn ahead of Simoncelli. Maybe he should have let Simoncelli go (he didn't have Simoncelli's pace at that point), but Pedrosa didn't do anything wrong with his lines at that turn.

I know he didn't do anything wrong and was in a great and right line but I'm talking about the last corner exit before the straight that made him ahead of Marco. That was so fast when someone like Marco is following you very close. He could have overtaken Marco in a better place and on a better situatuon.

hawkdriver · Mar 20, 2012

These guys have racing in their blood, they aren't going to just yield to each other if they feel they have a chance to gain positions. This is why we watch, the gutsy performance is what racing is about

povol · Mar 20, 2012

hawkdriver said:
These guys have racing in their blood, they aren't going to just yield to each other if they feel they have a chance to gain positions. This is why we watch, the gutsy performance is what racing is about

Yep, its a sprint. No time for giving up position hoping to make it up later. Speaking of sprints, did anyone see where Flaminni is floating the idea of having one longer race with a pit stop instead of the double header format.

cliche guevara · Mar 20, 2012

da fuq?

pitstops and motorcycle racing don't gel

truent · Mar 20, 2012

povol said:
Yep, its a sprint. No time for giving up position hoping to make it up later. Speaking of sprints, did anyone see where Flaminni is floating the idea of having one longer race with a pit stop instead of the double header format.

Please, Lord no.. anything that can be won in the pits is not racing to me

yamaka46 · Mar 20, 2012

cliché guevara said:
da fuq?

pitstops and motorcycle racing don't gel

truent said:
Please, Lord no.. anything that can be won in the pits is not racing to me

+1, or should that be +2!!

Maybe this is Dorna's way of ensuring that WSBK doesn't surpass MotoGP!! /conspiracytheory

bluegreen · Mar 20, 2012

truent said:
Please, Lord no.. anything that can be won in the pits is not racing to me

Isle of Mann ?

truent · Mar 20, 2012

Good point but If someone loses because some mechanic took an extra 3 seconds to put a tire on, and they were ahead before the pit, I'm sorry that has nothing to do with racing and the race just lost validity to me. Isle of Mann is it's own animal and personally I'd be fine with a few laps no pits, pure sprint

povol · Mar 21, 2012

truent said:
Good point but If someone loses because some mechanic took an extra 3 seconds to put a tire on, and they were ahead before the pit, I'm sorry that has nothing to do with racing and the race just lost validity to me. Isle of Mann is it's own animal and personally I'd be fine with a few laps no pits, pure sprint

Do you not consider F1, CART, LeMans, NASCAR, etc etc etc racing. Would someone lose a race because of a botched pit stop, of course, would that pit stop have you on the edge of your seat. I say yes It would. Think of the different strategies, do i take fuel fuel only to get the lead and hope my tires last against a guy coming fast on new tires. I dont care either way, but im sure the bean counters have done the math. Its easier to get sponsors, and sell commercials for an event that lasts 2-3 hours, than it is for one that is over if you have to take a dump and ate to much cheese the night before.

truent · Mar 21, 2012

povol said:
Do you not consider F1, CART, LeMans, NASCAR, etc etc etc racing. Would someone lose a race because of a botched pit stop, of course, would that pit stop have you on the edge of your seat. I say yes It would. Think of the different strategies, do i take fuel fuel only to get the lead and hope my tires last against a guy coming fast on new tires. I dont care either way, but im sure the bean counters have done the math. Its easier to get sponsors, and sell commercials for an event that lasts 2-3 hours, than it is for one that is over if you have to take a dump and ate to much cheese the night before.

lol sorry maybe i overstepped a bit, i do consider it racing.. but i choose not to watch them

povol · Mar 21, 2012

truent said:
lol sorry maybe i overstepped a bit, i do consider it racing.. but i choose not to watch them

Im hopeless, i watch them all.

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