CRT Progress

povol said:

If history is any indicator, Moto GP is going to slide back further into obscurity regardless of what rules package they introduce. When Rossi was injured in 2010, television ratings dropped over 50% for the races he missed, and rebounded immediately the race he came back.That tells me that their is millions of fair weather GP " fans" who will simply disappear in the near future when Rossi becomes irrelevant and then retires. I repeat, this not about close racing, it never was. Thats just the narrative that Dorna and the yellow horde are using to equal out the machinery now that Rossi has alienated himself from both Honda and Yamaha. All these rules do is pull Yamaha and Honda backward, because Ducati is unable to move forward at the same pace. Why anyone would want to see riders tooling around a racetrack 2-3 seconds off their potential is beyond me. All that does is open up the sport to guys who are not worthy of the title of Moto GP rider. Hell, if you hindered Usain Bolts ability to run 9 second 100's by strapping 50 lb weights to his legs, i could then be a world class sprinter. Its like DSB this year, is there going to be close racing with 8-10 guys capable of winning, sure there is, because you have 8-10 guys who are comfortable at DSB speed. Raise that performance by a second per lap and some of those 8-10 disappear from the front. Raise it 2-3 seconds and the truly fast guys will separate themselves from the pack. That is racing. Anything else is contrived and punishes greatness.

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povol said:

If history is any indicator, Moto GP is going to slide back further into obscurity regardless of what rules package they introduce. When Rossi was injured in 2010, television ratings dropped over 50% for the races he missed, and rebounded immediately the race he came back.That tells me that their is millions of fair weather GP " fans" who will simply disappear in the near future when Rossi becomes irrelevant and then retires. I repeat, this not about close racing, it never was. Thats just the narrative that Dorna and the yellow horde are using to equal out the machinery now that Rossi has alienated himself from both Honda and Yamaha. All these rules do is pull Yamaha and Honda backward, because Ducati is unable to move forward at the same pace. Why anyone would want to see riders tooling around a racetrack 2-3 seconds off their potential is beyond me. All that does is open up the sport to guys who are not worthy of the title of Moto GP rider. Hell, if you hindered Usain Bolts ability to run 9 second 100's by strapping 50 lb weights to his legs, i could then be a world class sprinter. Its like DSB this year, is there going to be close racing with 8-10 guys capable of winning, sure there is, because you have 8-10 guys who are comfortable at DSB speed. Raise that performance by a second per lap and some of those 8-10 disappear from the front. Raise it 2-3 seconds and the truly fast guys will separate themselves from the pack. That is racing. Anything else is contrived and punishes greatness.

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povol said:

If history is any indicator, Moto GP is going to slide back further into obscurity regardless of what rules package they introduce. When Rossi was injured in 2010, television ratings dropped over 50% for the races he missed, and rebounded immediately the race he came back.That tells me that their is millions of fair weather GP " fans" who will simply disappear in the near future when Rossi becomes irrelevant and then retires. I repeat, this not about close racing, it never was. Thats just the narrative that Dorna and the yellow horde are using to equal out the machinery now that Rossi has alienated himself from both Honda and Yamaha. All these rules do is pull Yamaha and Honda backward, because Ducati is unable to move forward at the same pace. Why anyone would want to see riders tooling around a racetrack 2-3 seconds off their potential is beyond me. All that does is open up the sport to guys who are not worthy of the title of Moto GP rider. Hell, if you hindered Usain Bolts ability to run 9 second 100's by strapping 50 lb weights to his legs, i could then be a world class sprinter. Its like DSB this year, is there going to be close racing with 8-10 guys capable of winning, sure there is, because you have 8-10 guys who are comfortable at DSB speed. Raise that performance by a second per lap and some of those 8-10 disappear from the front. Raise it 2-3 seconds and the truly fast guys will separate themselves from the pack. That is racing. Anything else is contrived and punishes greatness.

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First, this actually resembles cogent thought. Second, Rossi's injury happened during the world cup so extrapolating meaning from the figures is difficult.



Third, balancing competition with the rewards granted to the winners has always been difficult, and there is no ethos that recognizes competitive outcomes as absolutely good. Even in the free-market, the government has the ability to break up trusts and monopolies. Your personal ethos is the only body of thought that recognizes competitive victory as an absolute positive for society. People have been making that argument for millennia, and it has yet to stand up to even modest scrutiny. We allow human performance to go unregulated b/c entropy is trying to turn people back into star particles. Human achievement has a natural competitive ebb and flow.



MotoGP isn't an open competition. Is it necessary to use 800cc/1000cc engines? 4-stroke? 21L? Six engines? The rules are arbitrary desires of the competitors, but they can also serve as barriers to entry. If the product does not meet the objectives of the greater motorcycle industry (as decided by the FIM) or the utility demanded by fans (customers who support the motorcycle industry), the game can be changed. I would even make the argument that the MSMA are violating their fiduciary responsibility to their employer. If not, then the corporate HQs are violating their fidiciary responsibility to the shareholders. Pouring money into a zero sum contest is not a business activity, and allowing a vital advertising property, like MotoGP, to deteriorate is not protecting shareholder interests. Losing control of the rulebook through incompetence is not an acceptable business activity, and neither is accepting technological restrictions that interfere with corporate development cycles.



The MSMA are not intelligent enough to run the sport b/c no one who embraces mercantilism will ever be intelligent enough to represent corporations and their shareholders. I don't think Dorna are much smarter, but they also have a responsibility to their clients, Bridgepoint, to use MotoGP as a for-profit activity. That's what it is. Ideas like fairness, glory, competitiveness, rewards, are not even in the frame. The MSMA have made those concepts incompatible with for-profit business activities (after the 2006 sale of MotoGP), which suggests that they lack the requisite intellect to manage a lemonade stand. They can blame Bridgepoint all they want, but the MSMA will not be acting on behalf of the people who pay them.

browney said:

Mate, that is a fair rant..... What are you on?





Also, If MotoGP stops catering for 'punters' (ie. the vast majority of MotoGP: and sport fans), it will gather no money from sponsorship and will disappear. Without eyeballs on the screen and people through the gate, there will be no money for MotoGP.



This forum is not representative of the average person watching. I doubt most people want to watch a procession of a small number of extremely expensive bikes. I think they probably want to see close racing, with the best riders on the world, with great looking and sounding bikes. Maybe it is time to start moving in that direction. A control ECU has done wonders for F1, which has now got itself together after being unbelievably boring.





I like Mylexicon's Idea. I think the actual "claiming rule' is silly and allow the use of superbike style engines rather than let teams 'claim' engines.

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How do you explain this.



In the best years of motogp, from 2002 to 2005, Rossi just happened to amass a total of 40 wins, 10 per season. The next best was Gibbernau, 8 wins in 4 years, third was Biaggi, 4 wins in 4 years. Plenty of bums on seats, interesting racing. Hows that possible, I would call it very predictable.



In the last 4 years we had 3 different champions, Rossi had 17 wins, Lorenzo had 17 wins, Stoner 23 wins. No bums on seats. Boring.



The telling stat, 2011, Rossi 0 wins. Doesnt seem like close racing is the deciding factor.



And the new rules of F1 have guaranteed what? In 2011, a driver won 11 races in highly dominating fashion.

birdman said:

How do you explain this.



In the best years of motogp, from 2002 to 2005, Rossi just happened to amass a total of 40 wins, 10 per season. The next best was Gibbernau, 8 wins in 4 years, third was Biaggi, 4 wins in 4 years. Plenty of bums on seats, interesting racing. Hows that possible, I would call it very predictable.



In the last 4 years we had 3 different champions, Rossi had 17 wins, Lorenzo had 17 wins, Stoner 23 wins. No bums on seats. Boring.



The telling stat, 2011, Rossi 0 wins. Doesnt seem like close racing is the deciding factor.



And the new rules of F1 have guaranteed what? In 2011, a driver won 11 races in highly dominating fashion.

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Its another narrative. They tell us the racing is better, and like good little sheep , we nod our head in agreement. The racing in F1 is more boring to me than it was since they took away the different fueling strategies. So what, now the winner only wins by 10 seconds instead of 20. Does that constitute better racing.. Personally i dont give .... about margins of victory.

birdman said:

How do you explain this.



In the best years of motogp, from 2002 to 2005, Rossi just happened to amass a total of 40 wins, 10 per season. The next best was Gibbernau, 8 wins in 4 years, third was Biaggi, 4 wins in 4 years. Plenty of bums on seats, interesting racing. Hows that possible, I would call it very predictable.



In the last 4 years we had 3 different champions, Rossi had 17 wins, Lorenzo had 17 wins, Stoner 23 wins. No bums on seats. Boring.



The telling stat, 2011, Rossi 0 wins. Doesnt seem like close racing is the deciding factor.



And the new rules of F1 have guaranteed what? In 2011, a driver won 11 races in highly dominating fashion.

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Fans loved the new 990cc four-strokes, but fans were less enthusiastic about the 800s and the 21L fuel limitations. After 5 years of rules changes, contraction, and controversy, the casual fan is distraught. Even if they wanted to embrace the sport for reasons other than Rossi, those reasons do not exist. Only the compulsive motorsport fans are still watching.



Complaints about the 800s began before they had even turned a wheel. The fans understood the implicatications of the 800cc formula b/c they had seen similar changes before. The predictions have come to fruition.

mylexicon said:

Fans loved the new 990cc four-strokes, but fans were less enthusiastic about the 800s and the 21L fuel limitations. After 5 years of rules changes, contraction, and controversy, the casual fan is distraught. Even if they wanted to embrace the sport for reasons other than Rossi, those reasons do not exist. Only the compulsive motorsport fans are still watching.



Complaints about the 800s began before they had even turned a wheel. The fans understood the implicatications of the 800cc formula b/c they had seen similar changes before. The predictions have come to fruition.

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+1

The 500 and 990 bikes were all over the place and the riders had to fight the bike and the competition. In those times it was easy to see that the bikes had power, now they just ride on a rail. Maybe the new tires will help but we'll probably never see the bikes being so alive again.

mylexicon said:

Fans loved the new 990cc four-strokes, but fans were less enthusiastic about the 800s and the 21L fuel limitations. After 5 years of rules changes, contraction, and controversy, the casual fan is distraught. Even if they wanted to embrace the sport for reasons other than Rossi, those reasons do not exist. Only the compulsive motorsport fans are still watching.



Complaints about the 800s began before they had even turned a wheel. The fans understood the implicatications of the 800cc formula b/c they had seen similar changes before. The predictions have come to fruition.

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Clearly I'm in the minority having enjoyed the 800's as much as any other period since I started following 500cc in 1990. When I think back to 1990 I remember 500cc being a minority sport anyhow, my mates didnt have a clue about it, and yet it always survived.



When I watch the much loved 990 races for the most part I get the impression Rossi was just playing with opponents. He could have gone faster if he wanted to. The evidence of this comes from those races Rossi is famous for, when he got a time penalty or started from the back and still won.



Now days I see every one pushing at 100% all the time every race, the way Rossi did when he was penalised. I find this way more entertaining based on my own riding ability, understanding that its virtually impossible to replicate. It also reminds me more of the 500cc races, when it was obvious they werent holding anything back. Doohan and Rainey more often than not cleared off into the distance, rather than hang back.

hawkdriver said:

+1

The 500 and 990 bikes were all over the place and the riders had to fight the bike and the competition. In those times it was easy to see that the bikes had power, now they just ride on a rail. Maybe the new tires will help but we'll probably never see the bikes being so alive again.

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The Ducati is still all over the place, so watch it more and you should be entertained.

birdman said:

...the best years of motogp, from 2002 to 2005...

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Very debatable statement... Your personal opinion I suppose. Not one I'd agree with myself.

Mick D said:

Very debatable statement... Your personal opinion I suppose. Not one I'd agree with myself.

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Of course its his opinion, but a popular one. I also think the 990 era was the best, but again, just my opinion. Had nothing to do with the racing, i just liked big fire breathing 4 strokes that had fuel to burn. Not to mention i loved the tire wars.Tire competition, manufacturer competition, v5, v4 i4.Loved that era

mylexicon said:

Third, balancing competition with the rewards granted to the winners has always been difficult, and there is no ethos that recognizes competitive outcomes as absolutely good. Even in the free-market, the government has the ability to break up trusts and monopolies. Your personal ethos is the only body of thought that recognizes competitive victory as an absolute positive for society. People have been making that argument for millennia, and it has yet to stand up to even modest scrutiny. We allow human performance to go unregulated b/c entropy is trying to turn people back into star particles. Human achievement has a natural competitive ebb and flow.

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The logic of markets, or the logic of society at large does not apply everywhere, and I strongly contest that it applies to this discussion. This whole discussion is about what is desirable in a sport. We make the rules in this respect. Whether or not markets fail and competitive ethos is desirable in society is irrelevant to the question whether or not these things are desirable in a sport. Personally, I would say the sport should be all about competition. Yes, that is a normative statement, not claim to truth. No, that does not make it irrelevant. In fact, it is the only type of statement you can make in this case. Looking at what your quote above, you should be especially aware of that.

povol said:

Of course its his opinion, but a popular one. I also think the 990 era was the best, but again, just my opinion. Had nothing to do with the racing, i just liked big fire breathing 4 strokes that had fuel to burn. Not to mention i loved the tire wars.Tire competition, manufacturer competition, v5, v4 i4.Loved that era

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Have to agree, the different engine configurations, tyre wars et al made the 990s a blast to watch. I don't care much for control tyres, they will always suit one bike/rider more, and where is the healthy comprtition to keep driving things forward?



Still preferred the old 500s tae be honest though, shame their could no have been a change to make them race competitively against the diesels.



Pete

basspete said:

Have to agree, the different engine configurations, tyre wars et al made the 990s a blast to watch. I don't care much for control tyres, they will always suit one bike/rider more, and where is the healthy comprtition to keep driving things forward?



Still preferred the old 500s tae be honest though, shame their could no have been a change to make them race competitively against the diesels.



Pete

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700 -750 CC 2 strokes. Yikes. Ask King Kenny what he thought about it. Something along the lines of 'They dont pay me enough to ride that damn thing"

stiefel said:

The logic of markets, or the logic of society at large does not apply everywhere, and I strongly contest that it applies to this discussion. This whole discussion is about what is desirable in a sport. We make the rules in this respect. Whether or not markets fail and competitive ethos is desirable in society is irrelevant to the question whether or not these things are desirable in a sport. Personally, I would say the sport should be all about competition. Yes, that is a normative statement, not claim to truth. No, that does not make it irrelevant. In fact, it is the only type of statement you can make in this case. Looking at what your quote above, you should be especially aware of that.

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You have a right to your normative belief. You also have the right to watch the sport go bankrupt. You have the right to watch manufacturers undermine competition with closed-door bargaining sessions. You have the right to watch stock production bikes become slowly more advanced (in terms of some technological systems) and more powerful than racing vehicles. It has already happened to automobiles.



Fans can disagree on normative matters from now until the end of time, but, at the end of the day, MotoGP is a for-profit endeavor, and 75% of the GPC is for-profit institutions. The current state of MotoGP is the natural conclusion for any mercantile game. At first there is an abundance of competitors and resources. Warfare is jolly good sport, and empires get built. The returns never really materialize, non-aggression is negotiated, and the arrangement stagnates and sputters. More powerful economic arrangements arrive to consume mercantile sport, at which point the competition-guru claim that competition should not be allowed to run its course.



The Japanese manufacturers have won 36 of the last 37 premier class titles. The added brand value of those championships is barely sufficient to overcome the cost of Japanese manufacturing labor. Without export-friendly currency policy from the Japanese government and loose credit in Western economies, they can't even sell sportbikes. Ducati has rarely met profitability targets during the last 50 years regardless of racing success.



The MSMA force the fans to side with Dorna, which only creates the appearance that NASCAR is the way to go. MotoGP shouldn't be in this position, but the MSMA still haven't figured out the secrets of bipedalism. They prefer to drag their knuckles and fling feces at one another. It doesn't matter what the fans think. Reality is what it is. The MSMA are not fit. They build pretty bikes, but that isn't enough.

Mick D said:

Very debatable statement... Your personal opinion I suppose. Not one I'd agree with myself.

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My personal favorite year of 990's..................2006.

My favourite year was 2004. First time I'd seen the 990's in the flesh. My very first experience of them was Colin Edwards coming out of pit lane sideways. It sounded like the world was coming to an end when he opened the gas. Good times

mylexicon said:

Not a good long-term solution, but it is better than the subjectivity of claiming.

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Yep...subjectivity such as this just plain sucks, Let's go one better...why not turn the whole spectacle into a subjective endeavor? Yes the number of laps completed is important, but not everything. Let's have style points, costume points (coolest livery), difficulty points for passes or maneuvers, fastest lap points, most improved rider points, best hair style points etc.. Turn MotoGP into a sort of figure skating where we have a panel of judges rating and scoring the riders of the event. Wouldn't that be cool? Yikes.

All they need to do is get Stoner to stalk 1st place for 3/4ths of the race, make a bump pass and go on to win by 3-4 seconds and everyone will swear that they witnessed a great race. That strategy worked for Dorna for years, and created a legend at the same time. If Dorna were smart, they would just pay Stoner to create close racing, but i have a feeling thats not what this is really about.The history of the sport is not about close racing, and the fan didnt care until recently