CRT Progress

povol said:

All they need to do is get Stoner to stalk 1st place for 3/4ths of the race, make a bump pass and go on to win by 3-4 seconds and everyone will swear that they witnessed a great race. That strategy worked for Dorna for years, and created a legend at the same time. If Dorna were smart, they would just pay Stoner to create close racing, but i have a feeling thats not what this is really about.The history of the sport is not about close racing, and the fan didnt care until recently

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Yeah, market demands change, and the market says that close, hard-fought wins and championships are worth ten times more than championships bought with cubic dollars. Besides Rossi, the riders are not canny enough to understand, though the riders don't have much incentive to meet market demand. The MSMA are oblivious, and they routinely work against the fans. In essence, the MSMA are working against the demands of their own customers.



The MSMA refuse to deliver decent sport, and they sacrifice technological development to maintain organizational control, thus, the MSMA refuse to faithfully represent their employers, shareholders, and customers. The situation has gotten so bad that they have lost control of the rulebook, and MotoGP, as a prototype racing concept, is about to be replaced with world supersuperbike.



The MSMA do not know what they are doing. They are certainly not looking out for the sport you love.

povol said:

All they need to do is get Stoner to stalk 1st place for 3/4ths of the race, make a bump pass and go on to win by 3-4 seconds and everyone will swear that they witnessed a great race. That strategy worked for Dorna for years, and created a legend at the same time. If Dorna were smart, they would just pay Stoner to create close racing, but i have a feeling thats not what this is really about.The history of the sport is not about close racing, and the fan didnt care until recently

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BS, you can go back and look at the race threads here during the 800s when CS was dominating the field and see which threads are longer, the ones where he takes off or the ones where there is someone there to give him a challenge. The battles between Jlo and Rossi during Jlos first season as his teammate were also awesome even if he was crashing lots. It was edgy tight fighting on the brakes. Don't act like we weren't all talking about some of the moves CS put on last year, the problem was we only saw it a handful of times- not his fault, but I do think the Yam will be closer this year and we'll get more battles between GP's current two best riders. Go back and look at the race threads and count how many times you see the words procession and boring, it isn't some new trend.

It could come down to the simple occurence that whenever Stoner is "running away with it" .......... the camera is not on Rossi as much ............ hence why the boppers really hate it.



Lets face it, the "close racing" cry is a nonsense merely because one only has to look at the battles that do occur way back in the pack .......... Rossi has been in a constant battle lately ....... just its down in the placings ......... thats the real reason for the whinging.

mylexicon said:

Yeah, market demands change, and the market says that close, hard-fought wins and championships are worth ten times more than championships bought with cubic dollars. Besides Rossi, the riders are not canny enough to understand, though the riders don't have much incentive to meet market demand. The MSMA are oblivious, and they routinely work against the fans. In essence, the MSMA are working against the demands of their own customers.



The MSMA refuse to deliver decent sport, and they sacrifice technological development to maintain organizational control, thus, the MSMA refuse to faithfully represent their employers, shareholders, and customers. The situation has gotten so bad that they have lost control of the rulebook, and MotoGP, as a prototype racing concept, is about to be replaced with world supersuperbike.



The MSMA do not know what they are doing. They are certainly not looking out for the sport you love.

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I basically agree, although you are perhaps harsh about the canniness of the riders other than rossi. Whether or not they lack canniness, they perhaps have less choice than rossi did in his heyday, partly because there are now 3 or 4 riders who can win a race reducing the options for putting on a show (rossi himself in the 800 era seemed to choose to clear out when he could), and partly because the admittedly bad fuel economy formula limits options, with bikes running out of fuel on the warm down lap etc.

Rather than slow done prototypes, the CRT's need to be faster. Whatever it takes.

michaelm said:

I basically agree, although you are perhaps harsh about the canniness of the riders other than rossi. Whether or not they lack canniness, they perhaps have less choice than rossi did in his heyday, partly because there are now 3 or 4 riders who can win a race reducing the options for putting on a show (rossi himself in the 800 era seemed to choose to clear out when he could), and partly because the admittedly bad fuel economy formula limits options, with bikes running out of fuel on the warm down lap etc.

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The riders definitely have less choice as the 500cc paradigm--riders should never win uncomfortably by 10 seconds when a comfortable 1 second win is sufficient--has been replaced by the heartless objectivism of the ideal lap. However, I find their circumstance to be independent of their cognitive abilities. The younger riders don't seem to understand why the fans don't take them seriously. As much as I like Stoner, he is by far the worst. He frequently revises history by saying older riders didn't cry about safety and older riders didn't focus on commercialism. His revisions are not correct, and it gets him sideways with everyone in the paddock.



This is a game of "what's worse?". Is it worse to criticize the riders, though they have no direct incentives to alter their racecraft? Is it worse to let the riders live in the ridiculous bubble the MSMA have created for them, while the sport they love crumbles? Honestly, I have no idea. False dichotomy? Maybe, but barring a miraculous global recovery in the motorcycle/auto market, I can't see another scenario.

mylexicon said:

The riders definitely have less choice as the 500cc paradigm--riders should never win uncomfortably by 10 seconds when a comfortable 1 second win is sufficient--has been replaced by the heartless objectivism of the ideal lap. However, I find their circumstance to be independent of their cognitive abilities. The younger riders don't seem to understand why the fans don't take them seriously. As much as I like Stoner, he is by far the worst. He frequently revises history by saying older riders didn't cry about safety and older riders didn't focus on commercialism. His revisions are not correct, and it gets him sideways with everyone in the paddock.



This is a game of "what's worse?". Is it worse to criticize the riders, though they have no direct incentives to alter their racecraft? Is it worse to let the riders live in the ridiculous bubble the MSMA have created for them, while the sport they love crumbles? Honestly, I have no idea. False dichotomy? Maybe, but barring a miraculous global recovery in the motorcycle/auto market, I can't see another scenario.

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You are a strange and bizarre individual.

povol said:

You are a strange and bizarre individual.

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Pot kettle black!

mylexicon said:

The riders definitely have less choice as the 500cc paradigm--riders should never win uncomfortably by 10 seconds when a comfortable 1 second win is sufficient--has been replaced by the heartless objectivism of the ideal lap. However, I find their circumstance to be independent of their cognitive abilities. The younger riders don't seem to understand why the fans don't take them seriously. As much as I like Stoner, he is by far the worst. He frequently revises history by saying older riders didn't cry about safety and older riders didn't focus on commercialism. His revisions are not correct, and it gets him sideways with everyone in the paddock.



This is a game of "what's worse?". Is it worse to criticize the riders, though they have no direct incentives to alter their racecraft? Is it worse to let the riders live in the ridiculous bubble the MSMA have created for them, while the sport they love crumbles? Honestly, I have no idea. False dichotomy? Maybe, but barring a miraculous global recovery in the motorcycle/auto market, I can't see another scenario.

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I have no problem with the view that stoner is less savvy than rossi, and he may be cognitively inferior as you might put it as well as less sophisticated, given that rossi would appear to be fairly smart.



Even leaving aside the tyranny of the perfect lap imposed by the fuel economy based formula, I don't think stoner can be blamed for how he rode the ducati however. It appears that bike could be ridden to win in one way only, at 11/10ths from the front as slowing down and letting the heat go out of the tyres risked crashing the thing, as well as the bike being incapable of turning midcorner even with the tyres at operating temperature..



I agree he has been revisionist about at least one thing, the ducati gp 10 which was never a championship capable bike. His wins at the end of the season were mainly down to taking the odds of crashing, not to the flaws of the bike having been fixed.

For me Dorna are simply trying to undo the horrendous mistakes they made in 2007 and into continued wirh into 2009. A simple reversal of the fuel and engine limit is obviously too difficult, as is the control tyre at this point, so they are trying something else.



Funnily enough the defenders of the 800cc era are now claiming foul on the 'slowing' of the series with CRT. Yet the 'slowing' and dulling really began with the introduction of the fuel limit, the tyre supply restriction, 800cc capacity and then compounded heavily with the engine limit and the control tyre!



People carry on about wanting the fastest riders on the fastest bikes, best available rubber using qualifiers, no fuel limit and with ultimate rider control, the 800cc era couldn't have been further from this.......



Im not too sure if CRT is the solution, but at least they are now being proactive with addressing the issues.

shakes head......

Talpa said:

For me Dorna are simply trying to undo the horrendous mistakes they made in 2007 and into continued wirh into 2009. A simple reversal of the fuel and engine limit is obviously too difficult, as is the control tyre at this point, so they are trying something else.



Funnily enough the defenders of the 800cc era are now claiming foul on the 'slowing' of the series with CRT. Yet the 'slowing' and dulling really began with the introduction of the fuel limit, the tyre supply restriction, 800cc capacity and then compounded heavily with the engine limit and the control tyre!



People carry on about wanting the fastest riders on the fastest bikes, best available rubber using qualifiers, no fuel limit and with ultimate rider control, the 800cc era couldn't have been further from this.......



Im not too sure if CRT is the solution, but at least they are now being proactive with addressing the issues.

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Unfortunately being proactive for them appears to involve changing the rules on the fly and randomly, if not capriciously, and as far as cost saving goes changing the rules constantly is the most expensive thing.



I don't think there are many defenders of the 800 formula. There are defenders of riders who won under that formula, given that the riders had no choice other than to compete under that formula.

Hi everybody



It's a bit stupid of me to ask this, but I have a little doubt about the Engines the CRT bikes are using, Collin Edward's Suter uses a BMW engine, The IODA team is using an Aprillia RSV4 engine and the BQR Inmotec a Kawasaki. Am I correct??

And by the way is RDP's new team considered an Aprillia factory team or it's just a satelite team??

Talpa said:

For me Dorna are simply trying to undo the horrendous mistakes they made in 2007 and into continued wirh into 2009. A simple reversal of the fuel and engine limit is obviously too difficult, as is the control tyre at this point, so they are trying something else.



Funnily enough the defenders of the 800cc era are now claiming foul on the 'slowing' of the series with CRT. Yet the 'slowing' and dulling really began with the introduction of the fuel limit, the tyre supply restriction, 800cc capacity and then compounded heavily with the engine limit and the control tyre!



People carry on about wanting the fastest riders on the fastest bikes, best available rubber using qualifiers, no fuel limit and with ultimate rider control, the 800cc era couldn't have been further from this.......



Im not too sure if CRT is the solution, but at least they are now being proactive with addressing the issues.

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Yet they continued to set track records on a regular basis.

mh_kingcobra said:

Hi everybody



It's a bit stupid of me to ask this, but I have a little doubt about the Engines the CRT bikes are using, Collin Edward's Suter uses a BMW engine, The IODA team is using an Aprillia RSV4 engine and the BQR Inmotec a Kawasaki. Am I correct??

And by the way is RDP's new team considered an Aprillia factory team or it's just a satelite team??

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I believe you are correct about the engines.



RDP's bike in not considered factory or satellite. It is a CRT that happens to be built entirely by Aprilia. Several people will be using the ART (Aprilia CRT) this season, and they have the same classification as Suter, Ioda, and BQR.

michaelm said:

Unfortunately being proactive for them appears to involve changing the rules on the fly and randomly, if not capriciously, and as far as cost saving goes changing the rules constantly is the most expensive thing.



I don't think there are many defenders of the 800 formula. There are defenders of riders who won under that formula, given that the riders had no choice other than to compete under that formula.

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Yes I agree, Rossi's achievements during 800cc era are undermined too often........

Talpa said:

Yes I agree, Rossi's achievements during 800cc era are undermined too often........

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I actually agree with you. Stoner and he are close to equal in the 800 era, which given rossi's record prior to the 800 era is remarkable on stoner's part.



Unless someone comes up with something better, I am supporting the CRT concept. However while acknowledging the faults of the msma, I don't go for the current whitewashing of dorna. Every previous intitiative of theirs has been a disaster, and expensive to boot even though often purported to be cost-saving. Another thing we agree about, the control tyre, was the worst of all in terms of outcome, disadvantaging suzuki, kawasaki and ducati and eventually entrenching the dominance of yamaha and honda, and this was not something that came from the msma as far as I can determine.



Motogp has always been a honda/yamaha cup in the modern era, with only 3 wins of the last 29 by other manufacturers, and one of those influenced by injuries to the lead honda and yamaha riders. I agree the cost needs to come down so there can at least be more hondas and yamahas on the grid and not such a barrier to the entry of new manufacturers, but I can't help thinking the current approval of CRT and disapproval of honda and yamaha would be less if a particular competitor was still on a honda or a yamaha.

michaelm said:

I actually agree with you. Stoner and he are close to equal in the 800 era, which given rossi's record prior to the 800 era is remarkable on stoner's part.



Unless someone comes up with something better, I am supporting the CRT concept. However while acknowledging the faults of the msma, I don't go for the current whitewashing of dorna. Every previous intitiative of theirs has been a disaster, and expensive to boot even though often purported to be cost-saving. Another thing we agree about, the control tyre, was the worst of all in terms of outcome, disadvantaging suzuki, kawasaki and ducati and eventually entrenching the dominance of yamaha and honda, and this was not something that came from the msma as far as I can determine.



Motogp has always been a honda/yamaha cup in the modern era, with only 3 wins of the last 29 by other manufacturers, and one of those influenced by injuries to the lead honda and yamaha riders. I agree the cost needs to come down so there can at least be more hondas and yamahas on the grid and not such a barrier to the entry of new manufacturers, but I can't help thinking the current approval of CRT and disapproval of honda and yamaha would be less if a particular competitor was still on a honda or a yamaha.

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Not really, that is just you being you, forever the diplomat. Go ahead and say it, its ok. Stoner kicked his ... in the 800 era.

Sitting on the fence as far as CRT is concerned. If it fills the grid then great. But I'm not sure bringing them in this year under a different set of rules is a great idea.

Not sure promoting riders who aren't near the front in the lower classes is a good idea either. Riders will get lapped in pretty much every race this season.

I agree we need to cut costs. I also agree I've got no friggin idea how to best do it. Hence why I'm on the fence. I recognise the problem but don't have a solution.

Problem is do Dorna really have one? We will see I guess.

mylexicon said:

I believe you are correct about the engines.



RDP's bike in not considered factory or satellite. It is a CRT that happens to be built entirely by Aprilia. Several people will be using the ART (Aprilia CRT) this season, and they have the same classification as Suter, Ioda, and BQR.

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Thank you but now there comes another question. If the ART package ( chasis, engine, bike... etc) are coming from one factory why it is in the CRT category?? and there is also San Carlo CRT. what are the difference between that one and Bautista's bike?? They have a Honda engine with a FTR chasis, so they are half satelite half CRT?!?!?! I thought CRT bikes are just teams gathering engine and chasis from different factories and then putting all the parts together. I think I'm wrong.