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CRT - Does anyone really understand the rules

N

Nuts

Joined Jun 2008
583 Posts | 0+
Gold Coast, Australia
Posted this in another thread, but decided to start a freshy....



Gotta admit, I really don't fully understand the CRT rules.

1. Are the CRT bikes able to use the same standard of electronic systems as the MotoGP 1,000's, or are they limited

2. Are CRT teams completely free to play around with the production based engines, and internals - surely this starts to present a thin line between CRT engine and a prototype engine. What has to be used from the original production based engine. Where does a part go from being a production part to a prototype part - eg. if a CRT team runs a prod based engine but manufacture their own parts, to the original manufacturers specifications, but play around with materials - titanium valves or rods...... there are so many possibilities here.

3. Are WSBK spec engines able to be used, and then further modified outside the current WSBK specs (it would be interesting to know the power output of a 1000 WSBK engine, coimparred to the 1000 Moto engines).

4. Is there any reason why (for example) a Ducati Desmo RR type engine can't be used as the basis for a CRT engine (which is essentially a dumbed down 990 MotoGP engine).

5. Does CRT engine mean engine only, or engine and gearbox. If a CRT team had the budget, could they use a Honda style zero speed gearbox. Are CRT bikes able to use double clutch gearboxes, if the original engine came fitted to a double clutch gearbox.

6. Will there be any factory supported CRT teams - example a Yamaha CRT team, running an M1 frame and running gear, and running an R1 based CRT engine.

7. Will CRT teams have the 6 engine rule



It could be very difficult to police what CRT teams are doing with engines, and if these teams are smart, some of these CRT engines could be developed to be almost as powerful as MotoGP engines.

I am happy to see more bikes on the grid, but I'm not sure this is the way to go. DORNA are trying to make the bikes cheaper to run, but there are other ways they could do this - reduce electronics, reduce fuel restrictions.

If MotoGP is anything like F1, the costs increased by limiting the number of engines available in a season, so I say dump the six engine rule as well.
 
The speed website has a very good article from Dennis noyes on most of your Qs. As far as I know they can do whatever they want as long as they stay within the rules. The only rules being modified for them are extra fuel and engines. Titanium engine parts are available from companies like Del West and Pankl, who make most of the trick parts in GP and F1. It's going to come down to the teams budget and how much they want to spend.
 
Nuts said:
Posted this in another thread, but decided to start a freshy....



Gotta admit, I really don't fully understand the CRT rules.

1. Are the CRT bikes able to use the same standard of electronic systems as the MotoGP 1,000's, or are they limited

2. Are CRT teams completely free to play around with the production based engines, and internals - surely this starts to present a thin line between CRT engine and a prototype engine. What has to be used from the original production based engine. Where does a part go from being a production part to a prototype part - eg. if a CRT team runs a prod based engine but manufacture their own parts, to the original manufacturers specifications, but play around with materials - titanium valves or rods...... there are so many possibilities here.

3. Are WSBK spec engines able to be used, and then further modified outside the current WSBK specs (it would be interesting to know the power output of a 1000 WSBK engine, coimparred to the 1000 Moto engines).

4. Is there any reason why (for example) a Ducati Desmo RR type engine can't be used as the basis for a CRT engine (which is essentially a dumbed down 990 MotoGP engine).

5. Does CRT engine mean engine only, or engine and gearbox. If a CRT team had the budget, could they use a Honda style zero speed gearbox. Are CRT bikes able to use double clutch gearboxes, if the original engine came fitted to a double clutch gearbox.

6. Will there be any factory supported CRT teams - example a Yamaha CRT team, running an M1 frame and running gear, and running an R1 based CRT engine.

7. Will CRT teams have the 6 engine rule



It could be very difficult to police what CRT teams are doing with engines, and if these teams are smart, some of these CRT engines could be developed to be almost as powerful as MotoGP engines.

I am happy to see more bikes on the grid, but I'm not sure this is the way to go. DORNA are trying to make the bikes cheaper to run, but there are other ways they could do this - reduce electronics, reduce fuel restrictions.

If MotoGP is anything like F1, the costs increased by limiting the number of engines available in a season, so I say dump the six engine rule as well.
Click to expand...



1. Unlimited for now.

2. The teams can do whatever they want, but I think everyone expects them to maintain stock bore-stroke. Altering the bore requires a new cylinder head. Building new cylinder heads is not cost effective. Machining production heads might work, but I'm not sure anyone would spend development money on it. The BMW is already 80mm.

3. The MSMA said they will know right away if someone has factory support. I think (guess, really), they are referring to WSBK parts. I do not believe CRT will have access to WSBK parts b/c it qualifies as factory assistance, and the factories don't sell those parts to anyone.

4. Yes. The D16RR has 86mm bore, 5mm over the limit.

5. They can probably use a zero-shift gearbox if they can develop one, but they shouldn't need it. The factory bikes use it b/c they are fuel limited. Extra fuel is worth more than zero shift.

6. No. The MSMA already said that factory assistance from anyone will cause the CRT to be reclassified as factory. I think the Japanese are particularly worried about Aprilia.

7. No. 12 engine rule.
 
Probably a stupid question but can stock heads be modded to run pneumatic vavles?
 
Lex, thanks for your comments.

So, as long as the teams use the standard bore and stroke (and presumably use the standard block), thay can do whatever they like with internals. valves, heads, fuel injection, timing, and electronics. Correct ??

If the timing is dramatically changed the valves and therefore heads will need to be changed, and this is probably not a major job for people who know what they are doing.

Are the CRT engines also rev limited to 16,000.



Electronics will be the big factor.



GeePee said:
Probably a stupid question but can stock heads be modded to run pneumatic vavles?
Click to expand...



I'm no expert, but I don't think there is much benefit in pneumatic valves for lower reving engines.
 
Ok, what else can they do to production engines that they do to the GP engines?



Is anyone using direct injection on bikes?
 
Nuts said:
Lex, thanks for your comments.

So, as long as the teams use the standard bore and stroke (and presumably use the standard block), thay can do whatever they like with internals. valves, heads, fuel injection, timing, and electronics. Correct ??

If the timing is dramatically changed the valves and therefore heads will need to be changed, and this is probably not a major job for people who know what they are doing.

Are the CRT engines also rev limited to 16,000.



Electronics will be the big factor.







I'm no expert, but I don't think there is much benefit in pneumatic valves for lower reving engines.
Click to expand...



I think they can modify bore and stroke, but is my personal opinion that CRT teams will stick with the standard bore and stroke. What's the point of boring a Kawasaki, Honda, or Suzuki engine if the BMW already has an 80mm bore? Huge waste of funds. They will certainly perform extensive mods for the reciprocating internals, but I'm not sure if they will have titanium. I know costs have come down substantially with the new powdered titanium, but I don't know what kind of budgets or technical expertise the CRTs have.



Nothing is rev limited to 16,000rpm for next season. The 81mm 1000cc prototype engines will only achieve about 16,000rpm b/c that's the industry standard for a bike of 48.5mm. The best of the best are only going to make around 26m/s piston velocity. Only about 60mph. Pretty crazy isn't it. The pistons spin so fast with so much acceleration that they generate tens of tons of force, yet they never average faster than 60mph.
<




Yeah, electronics will probably be a big deal. I expect Suter will be working with everyone who has ever raced a BMW without factory electronics. BMW Italia could be a good start.



This is what I see for most CRTs. Heavily modded engines, but with materials below WSBK factory spec. Cranks will be polished and lightened. Aftermarket aluminum internals. Aggressive cam profiles. The engines will be analogous to really good Supersport tuning. All lot of people don't realize it, but a Superbike engine can gain 10-15% more power by simply remapping the fuel, dropping in a race cam, and switching to race fuel. A 200hp BMW engine should easily jump to 220-230hp in the hands of a competent tuner. The stock internals probably won't handle the strain, and that's when CRTs will start spending. Imo, reliability will drive engine spending for CRT teams.
 
GeePee said:
Ok, what else can they do to production engines that they do to the GP engines?



Is anyone using direct injection on bikes?
Click to expand...



DI is banned in MotoGP, and SBK manufacturers don't put DI on their bikes b/c it doesn't work at high rpm without insane fuel pressure. They were going to use it in F1 at around 15,000rpm. I think the engineers asked for 500bar to make it work properly. Anybody remember those specs for the new formula?
 
So Lex, what do you think realistically the Honda and Yam 1000cc MotoGP engines will produce. 270Hp ??

If you can take a 200 hp BMW engine to 220 - 230 Hp with just remapping fuel system, race cam, and fuel - what about lighttened internals, flow tested heads, bigger valves with variable timing, higher pressure fuel injection, etc. Even with a lot of work, if they could get CRT engines to around 250 Hp, with smooth useable power, and more fuel available (meaning the engines don't need to be backed off to make race distance), these CRT bikes could surprise a lot of people.



Regarding rev limits, surely max mean piston speed, and therfore max revs will be limited by the length of the connecting rods and the weight of the internal bits. Is there any reason why CRT engines won't match 1000cc Moto engines.



Interesting article about CRT from Kropo, written in May.

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2011/05/23/aprilia_admits_interest_from_crt_teams_i.html
 
Another one.



More interesting points from Kropo....

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/10/15/the_coming_revolution_8_crt_entries_in_m.html

speaking to FTR boss Steve Bones at Aragon, he explained that the teams were still unwilling to take the leap and spring for their CRT package, consisting of a 230 hp Aprilia RSV4 engine in a custom FTR chassis. Despite the fact that the package was massively cheaper than leasing a satellite bike - less than a quarter of the price of a Yamaha or Ducati, and nine times cheaper than a full factory Honda RC213V, including Honda's seamless transmission - potential teams were unwilling to take the plunge and commit to the investment.



Kropo, if you are ready this, what sort of money (roughly) are teams talking for a FTR / Aprilia setup.
 
With sufficient extra fuel, could the modified production engines make similar power to the MotoGP engines during a race? If so, what is the point in the ultra expensive engines? Why not just have every team use highly modified production engines with 24-26l of fuel in fully custom frames and still be able to do 320+ km/hr?



Cheap and everyone's happy.....
 
Nuts said:
So Lex, what do you think realistically the Honda and Yam 1000cc MotoGP engines will produce. 270Hp ??

If you can take a 200 hp BMW engine to 220 - 230 Hp with just remapping fuel system, race cam, and fuel - what about lighttened internals, flow tested heads, bigger valves with variable timing, higher pressure fuel injection, etc. Even with a lot of work, if they could get CRT engines to around 250 Hp, with smooth useable power, and more fuel available (meaning the engines don't need to be backed off to make race distance), these CRT bikes could surprise a lot of people.



Regarding rev limits, surely max mean piston speed, and therfore max revs will be limited by the length of the connecting rods and the weight of the internal bits. Is there any reason why CRT engines won't match 1000cc Moto engines.



Interesting article about CRT from Kropo, written in May.

http://www.motomatte...rt_teams_i.html
Click to expand...



270hp will not happen from a production engine with stock bore and stroke. Even the prototypes will struggle to make that kind of peak power with the 81mm bore regulations. Though 81mm bore limits peak horsepower, MotoGP is not horsepower limited b/c the bikes don't have enough fuel to run flat out over race distance. CRT are not supposed to be limited by fuel.



Horsepower is generated from airflow mods, friction mods, and fueling mods. The weight of the reciprocating internals affects the gyroscopic forces, reliability, and the ability of the engine to accelerate and decelerate. The weight of the internals only generates more horsepower if it makes the engine reliable enough for it to run at peak power.



Mean piston speed is controlled primarily by friction. It has been increasing by less than 1% per year for the last 50 years.
 
browney said:
With sufficient extra fuel, could the modified production engines make similar power to the MotoGP engines during a race? If so, what is the point in the ultra expensive engines? Why not just have every team use highly modified production engines with 24-26l of fuel in fully custom frames and still be able to do 320+ km/hr?



Cheap and everyone's happy.....
Click to expand...

That is the ultimate goal. But not everyone is happy, the factories are not amused at this prospect, they want to stack the deck so they always win. They don't realize that the deck is already stacked, as they are the only people who can afford the Stoners, Lorenzos and Rossis of this world.
 
Kropotkin said:
That is the ultimate goal. But not everyone is happy, the factories are not amused at this prospect, they want to stack the deck so they always win. They don't realize that the deck is already stacked, as they are the only people who can afford the Stoners, Lorenzos and Rossis of this world.
Click to expand...





"the deck is already stacked"



Recently I've been reading a lot of doom and gloom about the new "production" class (well, that's what a few people erroneously liken it to), not just from spectators but apprehension from riders alike. In your estimation, do you think this new CRT formula (I wonder when they will change that horrible name) will ever match 800 formula machines in terms of lap times?



For the record, I say, 'yes, of course'.



EDIT: to add parts in italic
 
Jumkie said:
"the deck is already stacked"



Recently I've been reading a lot of doom and gloom about the new "production" class (well, that's what a few people erroneously describe it), not just from spectators but apprehension from riders alike. In your estimation, do you think this new CRT formula (I wonder when they will change that horrible name) will ever match 800 formula machines?
Click to expand...



I don't understand what you mean by "match 800 formula machines". Match them in what way?



The doom and gloom is bollocks. Human beings are incredibly conservative and resistant to change. Anything new is automatically regarded as being A Bad Thing. The CRT bikes will be fine, in 2013 we will have a single set of rules, and Honda and Yamaha will stick around and clean up, despite being a second slower than 2012, the racing will be exciting, and by 2015, we'll all be wondering what all the fuss was about.
 
I realy enjoy your take on things Lex....I dont pretend to understand what you are always talking about but you seem to have a very interesting perspective on things that often challenges my preconceived notions about a particular subject.



Krop....fantastic job with the 3 part article you wrote on the current state of MotoGP. There was a lot to think about and digest but it was very well written and explained many of the aspects I was having trouble understanding. I recommend everyone read it.....Cheers.
 
Kropotkin said:
I don't understand what you mean by "match 800 formula machines". Match them in what way?



The doom and gloom is bollocks. Human beings are incredibly conservative and resistant to change. Anything new is automatically regarded as being A Bad Thing. The CRT bikes will be fine, in 2013 we will have a single set of rules, and Honda and Yamaha will stick around and clean up, despite being a second slower than 2012, the racing will be exciting, and by 2015, we'll all be wondering what all the fuss was about.
Click to expand...

Damn, that was quick, I was editing my post. I mean in terms of lap times.



(Which seems to be the principal gauge of performance.)
 
Jumkie said:
Damn, that was quick, I was editing my post. I mean in terms of lap times.
Click to expand...



There is only one important factor in motorcycle performance, and that is tire performance. You can only go as fast as your tires will grip. And teams will build bikes to match the grip allowed by the tires. So lap times will depend more on what Bridgestone do than on what FTR do. Lap times will be whatever Bridgestone decide they will be.
 
Kropotkin said:
There is only one important factor in motorcycle performance, and that is tire performance. You can only go as fast as your tires will grip. And teams will build bikes to match the grip allowed by the tires. So lap times will depend more on what Bridgestone do than on what FTR do. Lap times will be whatever Bridgestone decide they will be.
Click to expand...



I remember Rossi said once, 'tires are so important that if Bridgestones asks me to swim to Japan to get them, I will.' (Paraphrasing)



Just thinking out loud here, but I hope Bridgestone makes a tire that will at very least outperform Wsbk in terms of lap time then, otherwise, it will be very hard for the perception to continue that GP is still the pinnacle of the sport and not its rival sister series.
 

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