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CATALUNYA GP 2018

I prefer to think of him as the guy that took the bike that the GOAT couldn't even win on, and worked his ... off with the team to produce a genuine title challenging machine for the 2017 season. He certainly was essential to Ducati's success- the DNA of which Lorenzo is enjoying success on now. Admittedly I wasn't aware of Lorenzo's engineering credentials and help to design the new 2017 engine

Dovi was great last year.

I think the dispute is twofold; Ducati, or Domenicali at least, gave Lorenzo 1 season and 3 or 4 races before basically writing him off, when a rider as great as Rossi didn't ever adapt (I wasn't paying full attention but I think Jeremy Burgess who was on the post race coverage in Australia last night said he gave up trying to adapt), and Dovi took years to get there. If Dovi has credentials as a developer I am not aware of them, he adopted Stoner's settings at HRC and went faster than he had been going as I recall, and it was apparently a close decision between keeping him and Iannone for Ducati, which I wouldn't have thought would have been the case if Ducati considered Dovi some kind of development whiz. Meanwhile Yamaha have appeared to struggle and have pretty much gone back to the last chassis Jorge was involved with, and Zarco has said it has to be ridden a la Jorge.
 
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Had to laugh at the knob end Hodgson continuing to go off on Jorge saying he was a constant whiner and then finish with a statement on what a nice man Rossi is.
Mate, whilst I respect Hodgson's race career, he is an uber Vale ball-washer. I honestly don't think he can stop himself sometimes.
 
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Dovi was great last year.

I think the dispute is twofold; Ducati, or Domenicali at least, gave Lorenzo 1 season and 3 or 4 races before basically writing him off, when a rider as great as Rossi didn't ever adapt (I wasn't paying full attention but I think Jeremy Burgess who was on the post race coverage in Australia last night said he gave up trying to adapt), and Dovi took years to get there. If Dovi has credentials as a developer I am not aware of them, he adopted Stoner's settings at HRC and went faster than he had been going as I recall, and it was apparently a close decision between keeping him and Iannone for Ducati, which I wouldn't have thought would have been the case if Ducati considered Dovi some kind of development whiz. Meanwhile Yamaha have appeared to struggle and have pretty much gone back to the last chassis Jorge was involved with, and Zarco has said it has to be ridden a la Jorge.

I don't disagree with any of that. A few people seem to think that Lorenzo walking into the garage in 2017 is why Dovi was successful. Possibly data and settings may have been of interest. The new engine was the main development that made the bike (almost) successful. The only reason I said "essential" is that Dovi was the guy Ducati nominated to work with. If they managed to grab Lorenzo in 2013 or Rossi stayed and they started listening to him and JB, they may have got to where they are quicker.
 
Simply put, Vinales clearly has a ton of talent but obviously is not a development rider and can't setup his bike for his life - I find it amazing that Rossi is obviously the development rider at this point. I think if Lorenzo was somehow his teammate there, he would be having a ton of success. His early 2017 form can't just be a complete fluke.



I have to say, I have really started to come hate Dovi as of late for a multitude of reasons. The biggest one being highlighted in the second half of your post, the fact that in pretty much his entire career since he started in around 2008, that was the ONE and ONLY time in his life that he has ever consistently pushed for and contended for GP wins - he wasn't even really that close to the championship in the end either after he choked to an almost satirical degree in Australia. And just that little over half a year of success really seems to have got to his head - and I'm not talking just about his on track performance.

While I admit I was also one of the many who were incorrect at this point last year at believing that Dovi was not a contender, isn't this also the same guy who got absolutely decimated by Dani Pedrosa while he was at Repsol Honda for years? The same guy who took years to actually have any real success at Ducati? The same guy who was riding a freaking satellite Yamaha right before that? And yet suddenly, from half a season of success at the top, he has managed to get big enough an ego to act like he is essential to the success of Ducati (which ironically only got good once Lorenzo came around)?

It just really pisses me off to see someone with such a short time at the top create all of this drama between himself and Lorenzo - that the bike isn't being developed the right way because Lorenzo is pushing development the wrong way and that Lorenzo is pretty much a ...... teammate and blah blah blah.

Well, when it comes to beating his teammate, he is obiously going to have an easier time of it next year. Have fun with Danilo ....... Petrucci, an overambitious rider who only even got into GP because a brokeass CRT team picked him up from World Superstock, who literally just burns all his rubber as soon as possible and hope he gains enough track position for it not to matter. He won't be able to develop the bike for .... like Lorenzo has (even tho you moaned about it going in the wrong direction). If beating his teammate and scoring what for him is a mega-contract is all that matters for Dovi, then he can have fun next year pushing for maybe 2 or 3 wins and making a ton of money to be a noncontender again for the rest of his life. I know a lot of people are blaming Domenicalli for this whole debacle with Jorge, but I can't help but feel that Dovi has had that same Fernando Alonso effect in the past couple of months where he is tearing an entire team apart in pursuit of only his own selfish interests.

Ducati thought after last year that they finally had a championship contender. And unfortunately they let him go.

/endrant


Anyways, as much as I criticize Ducati for letting Lorenzo go so early in the season and rushing instead to sign World Superstock Legend Danilo Petrucci, I was highly critical of Lorenzo after his clear debacle in Jerez and said that he was clearly pushing way too hard just to fight for the podium.

That being said, one fuel tank later and he is a consecutive race winner for Duc. I don't think I've cheered on one rider so hard in the past 10 years as I have in the past two for Jorge. It is also amazing to see that he has the pace at this track, after many wrote him off last week for being at a Ducati/Lorenzoesque track.

Keep it up buddy, and actually give Marquez a challenge for the title this year!




I agree on the fact that Ducati handled Dovi and Lorenzo in the very wrong way (giving Dovi too much "importance" in terms of investments, and I say this as a Dovi fan) and I share with you a genuine enjoyment in watching Lorenzo winning races, but with all due respect all the other points stated in this post clearly show that you have a very superficial understanding of this sport and of the way bike development works.

I also don't understand why you have to throw all that .... to Dovi and Petrucci, it's not their fault if Ducati's management is not top notch at times, yes Dovi is making some bad mistakes that are entirely his fault, Petrucci is not the next Stoner, but re-read what you wrote about them and tell me if it's fair to talk about them in those terms?

I'm enjoying Lorenzo's wins in a true and deep way that I wouldn't have expected, but after all if we would have said that Ducati should have kept Lorenzo a month ago, we'd have been sent to a shrink.
 
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I don't disagree with any of that. A few people seem to think that Lorenzo walking into the garage in 2017 is why Dovi was successful. Possibly data and settings may have been of interest. The new engine was the main development that made the bike (almost) successful. The only reason I said "essential" is that Dovi was the guy Ducati nominated to work with. If they managed to grab Lorenzo in 2013 or Rossi stayed and they started listening to him and JB, they may have got to where they are quicker.

I disagree. Rossi failing to win on the Ducati and leaving is what finally made Ducati realize they needed to change the way they managed the team and they brought it a critical piece with Gigi. When Gigi arrived he said Ducati was operating very poorly... they was a severe lack of communication between the GP team and the factory so development suffered. There was never anything Rossi/burgess or Lorenzo could've done to turn things around for Ducati until after Gigi streamlined things. Had Stoner stayed with Ducati it would've only furthered delayed Ducati looking at themselves for corrections.
 
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but after all if we would have said that Ducati should have kept Lorenzo a month ago, we'd have been sent to a shrink.
Unfortunately though, mio amico, the sport is getting more and more like society and its 'instant gratification.' It is just like combat sports now where 'you're only as good as you're last fight.' A lot of the common sense surrounding a riders history seems to be forgotten if they either win or have a bad race.
 
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Unfortunately though, mio amico, the sport is getting more and more like society and its 'instant gratification.' It is just like combat sports now where 'you're only as good as you're last fight.' A lot of the common sense surrounding a riders history seems to be forgotten if they either win or have a bad race.



Indeed, but in a place (such as a forum) where one specific sport is discussed and analyzed in detail I think it's fair to expect an understanding of it that goes beyond the "yesterday he won so he's the coolest! / yesterday he lost so he's ....!".

Especially in MotoGP where the amount of things that you need to be able to win a race are so many that it might take years to obtain them all.
 
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Dovi was great last year.

I think the dispute is twofold; Ducati, or Domenicali at least, gave Lorenzo 1 season and 3 or 4 races before basically writing him off, when a rider as great as Rossi didn't ever adapt (I wasn't paying full attention but I think Jeremy Burgess who was on the post race coverage in Australia last night said he gave up trying to adapt), and Dovi took years to get there.
This analysis overlooks the fact that the GP11 and 12, the Preziosi bike, was much worse than the GP17/18 (and Jorge and Dovi have both said the same thing).
 
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Very satisfying to see Jorge win two on the trot. All the doubters and haters have now been silenced.

Sucks to be Suzuki.
 
I take it he doesn't like Mick Doohan then either, who was wont to whinge after races, quite often after winning though. Jorge wouldn't even be on the podium as a whiner in the current field, given the presence of the two Yamaha factory riders and one Cal Crutchlow (of whom l am a fan btw); whether or not Rossi is the GOAT rider, he certainly has made the GOAT whine/whinge at a certain Sepang pre-race press conference, closely followed by his after race comments following the Valencia race the same year.

Yes it was quite strange for Neil (though he is a bit of a pillock in my mind) to criticise Jorge for being a moaner (especially when the thing he moaned about got sorted and he started banging in wins) but conveniently forgets about the wailing from Rossi a good few years back when someone challenged him.
 
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One thing about Jorge, and I've been a big fan of his for some time, is that it really shows that there is something to be said for a stubborn 'FU' mindset.

There's no doubt that Jorge is talented and he has done some good development work on the bike but you can't help but believe that the final 'edge' comes from the mindset of wanting to prove someone wrong or rub their face in it.

Hence, you can see why the mind games, bad blood and rivalry spats can add a real frisson of excitement because they do bring the emotional edge which can, but not always, bring an extra level of performance.

We might want riders to be fair but to do their job, entertain us and perform to the pinnacle of their performance, do we really need or want them to be nice?
 
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This analysis overlooks the fact that the GP11 and 12, the Preziosi bike, was much worse than the GP17/18 (and Jorge and Dovi have both said the same thing).
The basic DNA of the thing has always been that it won’t turn midcorner, which many have speculated is due to the basic L4 engine configuration. Stoner found his own way around that, which only worked sporadically even for him in 2010, although they had developed that bike hoping to attract Rossi or Lorenzo and vainly tried to turn the thing into a Yamaha.

Jeremy Burgess said on Australian TV last night that Rossi stopped trying in his last 6 months at Ducati, take that as you will, perhaps there is now bad blood between them, perhaps there was no point anyway, etc.

Regardless of Rossi, while the bike is obviously easier now (Lorenzo perhaps displaying magnamity said post race Rossi could also win on the current bike) Lorenzo still deserves considerable credit for either adapting his riding style or changing the bike sufficiently to be successful on it when most including many of his fans had given up on him as a Ducati rider.
 
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Regardless of Rossi, while the bike is obviously easier now (Lorenzo perhaps displaying magnamity said post race Rossi could also win on the current bike) Lorenzo still deserves considerable credit for either adapting his riding style or changing the bike sufficiently to be successful on it when most including many of his fans had given up on him as a Ducati rider.
Yes, that's a good point, there is no way to win a motogp race without everything 'coming together' and a large chunk of the necessary 'ingredients' come from the rider.

I have to say though, in relation to the race, credit to Vale for being on the podium again. I know that Dovi crashing made it easier for him, but his consistency, especially when set against the back drop of Vinales' performances, is no small feat.
 
What a performance. I could have sworn Jojo was riding a red and white Yamaha. It will be very interesting next year if he can start 2019 with these type of performances on the RCV. I wonder if his development feedback on the Honda will end up giving Marc more consistency on the front or if that is all down to rider style?
 
Two consecutive wins by Lorenzo is something very good indeed, and as a Ducati fan I rejoice; that's beginning to repay, at last, the investment made on him. Ducati did not deserve another superpaid-superstar complete disappointment, after Rossi.

This said, to decree that Dovi is finished and Jorge is the best Ducati rider after Stoner is a bit premature. That's still to be seen, especially since all this may have a not-so-stable foundation (unless one buys the magic tank story; I tend to believe the pressure relief interpretation).

Jorge has always been an extraordinary but moody performer, alternating streaks of grace with less than stellar results, even at Yamaha. Now he has just switched from a long depression to a state of grace, but that was kind of due for a champion of his pedigree, on a Ducati that is universally considered one of the best bikes in MotoGP since last year.

Will this state of grace last? That is the question. Assen could provide a first answer.
 
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Two consecutive wins by Lorenzo is something very good indeed, and as a Ducati fan I rejoice; that's beginning to repay, at last, the investment made on him. Ducati did not deserve another superpaid-superstar complete disappointment, after Rossi.

This said, to decree that Dovi is finished and Jorge is the best Ducati rider after Stoner is a bit premature. That's still to be seen, especially since all this may have a not-so-stable foundation (unless one buys the magic tank story; I tend to believe the pressure relief interpretation).

Jorge has always been an extraordinary but moody performer, alternating streaks of grace with less than stellar results, even at Yamaha. Now he has just switched from a long depression to a state of grace, but that was kind of due for a champion of his pedigree, on a Ducati that is universally considered one of the best bikes in MotoGP since last year.

Will this state of grace last? That is the question. Assen could provide a first answer.

Seems at least "one" (and what one!) has bought the story:

https://www.gpone.com/it/2018/06/18/motogp/rossi-come-lorenzo-nuovo-serbatoio-per-i-test.html

:D:D
 
Two consecutive wins by Lorenzo is something very good indeed, and as a Ducati fan I rejoice; that's beginning to repay, at last, the investment made on him. Ducati did not deserve another superpaid-superstar complete disappointment, after Rossi.

This said, to decree that Dovi is finished and Jorge is the best Ducati rider after Stoner is a bit premature. That's still to be seen, especially since all this may have a not-so-stable foundation (unless one buys the magic tank story; I tend to believe the pressure relief interpretation).

Jorge has always been an extraordinary but moody performer, alternating streaks of grace with less than stellar results, even at Yamaha. Now he has just switched from a long depression to a state of grace, but that was kind of due for a champion of his pedigree, on a Ducati that is universally considered one of the best bikes in MotoGP since last year.

Will this state of grace last? That is the question. Assen could provide a first answer.

Indeed we shall see.

I can’t see Dovi dominating whole races in Jorge fashion, but I can’t see Jorge making a late race charge/beating MM head to head on the last corner of a race as Dovi has done.

Jorge was fairly relentlessly consistent in 2010 and 2012, and not all that inconsistent in 2009 and 2011. Things changed with the advent of MM and the two clavicular fractures, whether due to both or either is hard to say; he was still sitting on top of the world and looking fairly bulletproof until that Assen crash in 2013, and Assen this year will very likely be telling as you say.
 
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