Capirossi wants significant "improvement"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 20 2008, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But one thing is for sure, he is a MotoGP caliber rider.

Although i think your post makes a well constructed argument for hiring any young rider with potential, i have to inform you that things aren't always this black and white. Remember Bayliss' wildcard in 2006, that would have you believing that troy on a factory bike would be a championship contender. However troy had 2 seasons on competative machinary in which time he managaed to ride his way out of the gp paddock. All i am saying is that although Spies's performance has been excellent, that does not necessaily extrapolate to a whole season or career. The people who see all he ins and outs took a risk (as with any decision) in not hiring him and that may or may not have been the best decision, we'll never know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 20 2008, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Remember Bayliss' wildcard in 2006, that would have you believing that troy on a factory bike would be a championship contender. However troy had 2 seasons on competative machinary in which time he managaed to ride his way out of the gp paddock.
Oh really, I would love to hear your explanation of Bayliss' "competative machinary". Especially for 2004 when he was let go.

Tom, why do you do this? You stick your foot in your mouth, I will probably discredit every thing you say. You won't accept it, despite the facts, and then go running behind the splitting of hairs on definitions of words.

Commence googling...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 20 2008, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh really, I would love to hear your explanation of Bayliss' "competative machinary". Especially for 2004 when he was let go.

Tom, why do you do this? You stick your foot in your mouth, I will probably discredit every thing you say. You won't accept it, despite the facts, and then go running behind the splitting of hairs on definitions of words.

Commence googling...

Well his Ducati ride was factory and his replacement, who isn't held in particularly high regard comprihensively did a better job. Then he was riding a satellite version of the most dominant bike of the 990cc era, definitely capable of winning races. Thats competative machinary and he didn't produce any results his wildcard suggested possible. I'm not saying that he isn't motogp "worthy", just as i think that Ben Spies is motogp worthy. But i don't think either were/are in a position to demand factory equipmet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 20 2008, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, there was fuss then, and it intensified now. And rightly so considering that Spies has improved over the three wild card rides every race, culminating in beating the two factory regulars on the same machine on arguably equal footing.

On top of that, I think it was a dumb mistake to have signed Capi & Vermi before seeing what were to be the results at Indy (which could have turned out Spies getting a fourth). In the rain, while Vermi is considered a ....... rain "specialist". There is no excuse for Capi & Vermi to have been beat by a guy who previous had only raced twice on a machine the duo knew fully well.

I don't think people fully appreciate what Spies has done. In just three wildcards, Spies has racked up almost half to a third of the championship points that West, Hopkins, De Puniet, Melandri, De Angelis, and Guintoli (all GP regulars).

I think Suzuki ...... up. I should be hearing from Suzuki, 'we tried to sign him, offered him this deal, but he turned it down.' Other than that, I think they made a mistake. I think Capi is better racer than Vermi but his points don't show it, only until recently has Vermi out shown him. Capi has 86 championship points, that is a wopping one more than James Toesland who started the year in fine fashion but has sank like the American financial markets. Toesland is the only credible rider-machine combo legit enough to say he actually beat somebody (and it may interest you to know that Spies equalled Toeslands best finish, 6th); other than that he is ahead of the all star list of (code for bottom-dwellers):West, Hopkins, De Puniet, Melandri, De Angelis, and Guintoli. Suzuki should have said, hey, we got a great cush job for you as our test rider, but for now we need to make room for a young gun. Perhaps at least this way, they might have the opportunity to have two bikes on the podium at Laguna next year (when was the last time that happened?)

I have yet to hear a convincing argument here or anywhere, that Suzuki made a great decision resigning what surely will be two mid packers, again. They need to take a gamble (and not much of a gamble being that Spies had shown he could be a top finisher). I fully believe that if Spies had the opportunity of learning the bike over preseason that he would beat Suzuki's current top rider--Vermuelen. Think about this for a moment: where has Vermi excelled? In the rain and at Laguna. Both of these conditions Ben Spies has being strong. Spies beat him in his own rain element, and finished a respectable 8th at Laguna (while suffering from a major medical issue, less you forget he actually was medivac to have an emergency appendectomy!) Other than that Vermi is an empty bubble in the dry. The fact is Vermi is beating Capi, so why oh why would they resign the guy. Some of you might say, well it helps to have an experienced guy developing. I say yeah, get him to be a test rider then, and put in a hungry young gun with a chip on his shoulder aiming to prove a point.

...., can I get some help here? Am I the only guy who sees this .... slipping from the grasp of this perennial-case-study-of-mediocrity that is Rizla Suzuki? And really, I am NOT a fan of this guy. For one, I hate Texas (and though he was born in Tenn, he claims this State; plus I don't like this guy's demeanor--not humble enough for me). But one thing is for sure, he is a MotoGP caliber rider.

ok, here goes...

how many riders have won a race in the 800 era?

1. Rossi
2.Stoner
3.Capirossi
4.peedrosa
5.Lorenzo
6Vermeulen

hope i didnt leave anyone out?
i know there are a lot of circumstances regarding some peoples wins etc out of that list but at the end of the day, just like points decide a championship, wins are wins, no matter the weather.
now it seems to me that of all the teams out there, only yamaha and suzuki have two people who have won a race or two on an 800. and going right back to the start of cappers first ride on the suzuki, it appears that he and CV have been reading off the same page regarding bike changes and improvements. so you can see why they are reluctant to break up a team dynamic that appears to work. this also coupled with the fact that neither rider met their performance targets, leading me and hopefully others to say that "its not likely to be both riders being ...., maybe the bike aint so hot either"?
and then you have that coupled with insanely high wage demands from the "young gun" and his female version of an alberto Pig minion. oh, and a suspected lack of commitment (assen)

now, i am NOT saying spies doesnt deserve a ride but i do believe that his or his mothers handling of his wildcard appearances has soured the relationship with suzuki. and its now not only about how well you can ride, but how well you can gel with the team as well. without any of the ingredients to do well, you will not win races, let alone a championship.
this leads me to believe that suzuki are using CV & LC to develop the bike as quickly as possible whilst sacrificing results in 2009 for a much better launchpad in 2010 when there will hopefully be a front runner on a suzuki. will it work?
only time will tell if they made a mistake in letting spies slip through but IMO they made the best choice out of the pretty ordinary options they had.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Sep 20 2008, 04:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ok, here goes...

only time will tell if they made a mistake in letting spies slip through but IMO they made the best choice out of the pretty ordinary options they had.


Ok Al, thanks for your explanation. I see its hard to argue against the guy in terms of performance, most of the detraction surrounds his "fit" with a team. Capi's win was not on a Suzuki, so a bit of a miscomparison there. I think your last statement pretty much sums up your take. I have trouble believing his performance was "ordinary" against what people consider the "best" riders in the world. Either way, I like Capi & Vermi, just think they are not up for the task to move that much forward. I guess we just disagree buddy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 20 2008, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Although i think your post makes a well constructed argument for hiring any young rider with potential, i have to inform you that things aren't always this black and white. Remember Bayliss' wildcard in 2006, that would have you believing that troy on a factory bike would be a championship contender. However troy had 2 seasons on competative machinary in which time he managaed to ride his way out of the gp paddock. All i am saying is that although Spies's performance has been excellent, that does not necessaily extrapolate to a whole season or career. The people who see all he ins and outs took a risk (as with any decision) in not hiring him and that may or may not have been the best decision, we'll never know.


Tom come on, we all know it wasn't his machinary. Troy was in his mid 30's, he was too old and therefore not able to ride a Gp bike

You can't compare Troy to Ben really, they are two different guys in different situations, just because Troys time in Gp's turned out like it did would have no reference to what Bens time in Motogp would or will be like. Its an arguement of ifs and would be pointless

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 20 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok Al, thanks for your explanation. I see its hard to argue against the guy in terms of performance, most of the detraction surrounds his "fit" with a team. Capi's win was not on a Suzuki, so a bit of a miscomparison there. I think your last statement pretty much sums up your take. I have trouble believing his performance was "ordinary" against what people consider the "best" riders in the world. Either way, I like Capi & Vermi, just think they are not up for the task to move that much forward. I guess we just disagree buddy.

1. you cant say anything against his performances, they were stellar, that is why i thought that it was not a question of his riding skills. that has led me to believe there is another side to this situation.

2. again, no-one can fault his performance, but no-one really knows what kind of atmosphere was prevalent in that garage for those races. that is the point i am trying to make..

3. no worries jumkie

i dont actually disagree with all you say on this, i am more concerned with suzukis results than anything else. if one of the riders is not getting the job done, then he gets the bullet from me.i dont have any patriotic affiliation to any of the riders, so that does not tint my judgement (not saying it has done yours either, but some others, deffo). IMO CV & LC are out at the end of 2009 if the results are similar to this seasons. i just hope that it is not the case and they can do the job.time will tell who is closer to the mark (just have to wait a year!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 20 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok Al, thanks for your explanation. I see its hard to argue against the guy in terms of performance, most of the detraction surrounds his "fit" with a team. Capi's win was not on a Suzuki, so a bit of a miscomparison there. I think your last statement pretty much sums up your take. I have trouble believing his performance was "ordinary" against what people consider the "best" riders in the world. Either way, I like Capi & Vermi, just think they are not up for the task to move that much forward. I guess we just disagree buddy.
Capirex and Vermi are not the problem it is suzuki which sucks big time.