Burgess, Stoner, Rossi, Capirossi, Bayliss re: 800 Ducati

Keshav · Jun 1, 2011

mylexicon said:
It was disrespectful. The MSMA supposed that 21L and 800cc would mean a return to cornerspeed. Casey told everyone that cornerspeed was not fastest. He wanted a bike that turned on a dime so it could brake late, and accelerate early. The basic theory of saving fuel was not compatible with Casey's requests so Ducati didn't really listen to him. Even as H&Y started to claw back Ducati's advantage, Ducati still refused to build a bike that did what Casey wanted it to do.

Now Casey rides for Honda who have surprisingly decided to make Casey happy. We are all treated to a biweekly demonstration of how the ancient dirt-tracking methods still reduce lap time even in the 21L 800cc era. I'm sure Hayden is about ready to fly to HRC headquarters and go postal on some people.

More likely he's upping his Prozac dosage.

Mental Anarchist · Jun 1, 2011

I find Bayliss comments interesting. Ducati enlists him for a short test where Bayliss tries to ride like Stoner. So this tells me that Ducati were 100% aware of Stoner's technique and the point of Bayliss test was not to check the bike out but to see if another successful and credible rider could do what Stoner does. So were they trying to force this technique onto Capirossi, Melandri, Hayden because they all seem to be completely up to speed with exactly what Stoner does to go fast?

Standing back and looking from a helicopter perspective this suggests to me that Ducati were doing what ever they could to prove that it was the failing riders fault not the bikes.

On another point, we should not forget the timeline in regards to Stoner leaving and Rossi coming. Stoner had decided to leave well before negotiations with Rossi started. So it would appear that Ducati had no intention of moving Stoner on so that Rossi could come and fix things. When they lost their only successful rider they were then forced to sign someone else. Rossi was no doubt the first and only real prospective replacement. Ducati would have known that if they signed Rossi then the pressure would be on them to do what was required to put Rossi at the front. No longer could they blame the rider if the rider did not succeed as in the eyes of so many Rossi's talent is unquestionable and if Rossi does not win it is not Rossi's fault. With all their other riders, even Stoner, this was never the case and losses could always be placed on the riders shoulders and hence Ducati failed to ever try to fix the bike.

Geonerd · Jun 1, 2011

BarryMachine said:
In 4 races on the ducati Stoner had won ....... ? .......... more than Rossi

In 4 seasons ....... Stoner won the most races of all riders ......... lets see if Rossi does the same

Fish.

Barrell.

Shotgun.

BLAMMO!!!

dwoodhouse · Jun 1, 2011

BarryMachine said:
In 4 races on the ducati Stoner had won ....... ? .......... more than Rossi

In 4 seasons ....... Stoner won the most races of all riders ......... lets see if Rossi does the same

You know very well that when the ducati was most comparable for both riders (2010 to 2011) that stoner did not win a single race for quite a while. Jury is out as to whether vr will win by season's end but be a little fair about it. It's also worth noting that the hondas are comparatively better this year than last as you have dovi outpacing everyone who isn't on a Honda. Otherwise the gap maybe negligible to the front. Lorenzo is riding back in the same air at the moment and I think he will suffer at catalunya with the yamaha losing out in the high speed areas.

Keshav · Jun 1, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
I find Bayliss comments interesting. Ducati enlists him for a short test where Bayliss tries to ride like Stoner. So this tells me that Ducati were 100% aware of Stoner's technique and the point of Bayliss test was not to check the bike out but to see if another successful and credible rider could do what Stoner does. So were they trying to force this technique onto Capirossi, Melandri, Hayden because they all seem to be completely up to speed with exactly what Stoner does to go fast?

Standing back and looking from a helicopter perspective this suggests to me that Ducati were doing what ever they could to prove that it was the failing riders fault not the bikes.

On another point, we should not forget the timeline in regards to Stoner leaving and Rossi coming. Stoner had decided to leave well before negotiations with Rossi started. So it would appear that Ducati had no intention of moving Stoner on so that Rossi could come and fix things. When they lost their only successful rider they were then forced to sign someone else. Rossi was no doubt the first and only real prospective replacement. Ducati would have known that if they signed Rossi then the pressure would be on them to do what was required to put Rossi at the front. No longer could they blame the rider if the rider did not succeed as in the eyes of so many Rossi's talent is unquestionable and if Rossi does not win it is not Rossi's fault. With all their other riders, even Stoner, this was never the case and losses could always be placed on the riders shoulders and hence Ducati failed to ever try to fix the bike.

Of course I have no way of knowing - it's just my opinion... but I strongly suspect Ducati believed it was all going to magically gel once Rossi and Burgess came aboard. I think they were living in denial right up until Rossi did his first test. Then reality hit them.

BHarvey · Jun 1, 2011

Kenny Roberts said it best when he told Rainey to QUIT winning on this .... bike (93) unless you want to keep it! That's why they had to get a ROCK chassis, cause Roberts was right and the factory did not listen or supply what Rainey needed, as he was already winning on the bike.

Doohan ran into the opposite problem when Honda kept wanting to give him new parts, and he evaluated them and sent them back.

So what's the lesson? One factory gives you .... and no support and the other keeps supplying .... and then more .....

J4rn0 · Jun 1, 2011

Of course Ducati -- and not only Ducati -- knew perfectly well how good Stoner is, even before 2007. For some time they did not even realize it was Stoner more than the bike, and when they began to realize it they tried to find other riders capable to use that same style, rather than risk changing the bike. That balance was frail however, and in 2008 already the advances by Yamaha and the use of Bridgestone tires by Rossi had changed the situation obliging Stoner to push more, taking more risks, with the result of crashing more (those who thought Stoner crashed because he was feeling psychological pressure from Rossi were just deluded). Even like that, Stoner kept winning many races, but too many DNFs meant he could not nail another title. It was inevitable that Honda would hire him, -- the only surprise is that they took so long.

However Stoner on a more 'normal' Jap bike, like the Honda, has to worry more about his own teammates (who are never that far from him now). One cannot have everything...

Kropotkin · Jun 1, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
I find Bayliss comments interesting. Ducati enlists him for a short test where Bayliss tries to ride like Stoner. So this tells me that Ducati were 100% aware of Stoner's technique and the point of Bayliss test was not to check the bike out but to see if another successful and credible rider could do what Stoner does. So were they trying to force this technique onto Capirossi, Melandri, Hayden because they all seem to be completely up to speed with exactly what Stoner does to go fast?

Standing back and looking from a helicopter perspective this suggests to me that Ducati were doing what ever they could to prove that it was the failing riders fault not the bikes.

On another point, we should not forget the timeline in regards to Stoner leaving and Rossi coming. Stoner had decided to leave well before negotiations with Rossi started. So it would appear that Ducati had no intention of moving Stoner on so that Rossi could come and fix things. When they lost their only successful rider they were then forced to sign someone else. Rossi was no doubt the first and only real prospective replacement. Ducati would have known that if they signed Rossi then the pressure would be on them to do what was required to put Rossi at the front. No longer could they blame the rider if the rider did not succeed as in the eyes of so many Rossi's talent is unquestionable and if Rossi does not win it is not Rossi's fault. With all their other riders, even Stoner, this was never the case and losses could always be placed on the riders shoulders and hence Ducati failed to ever try to fix the bike.

Stoner sounded his crew out about a possible move to Honda at the Sepang tests in 2010, which was in February. He'd already made up his mind to leave then. He was tired of not getting the changes to the bike he asked for.

FWIW, I've had a couple of people (well, Australians

) email me who have attended talks given by Jerry Burgess. He has basically said that Ducati was happy to get 4 or 5 wins in a season, and accepted the race crashes as part of the deal. I get the impression they never really expected to be world champions.

Of course, signing Rossi changes that attitude. If Stoner doesn't win a championship, he gets the blame. If Rossi doesn't win a championship, Ducati gets the blame. Preziosi is definitely looking a lot more contrite when he turns up to races now, and there was a real sense of shock among the Ducati staff after the Valencia test.

At Qatar, a member of Rossi's crew said to me "We've got 17 more tests before next year." That tells you what their expectations are.

levigarrett · Jun 1, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Stoner sounded his crew out about a possible move to Honda at the Sepang tests in 2010, which was in February. He'd already made up his mind to leave then. He was tired of not getting the changes to the bike he asked for.

FWIW, I've had a couple of people (well, Australians

) email me who have attended talks given by Jerry Burgess. He has basically said that Ducati was happy to get 4 or 5 wins in a season, and accepted the race crashes as part of the deal. I get the impression they never really expected to be world champions.

Of course, signing Rossi changes that attitude. If Stoner doesn't win a championship, he gets the blame. If Rossi doesn't win a championship, Ducati gets the blame. Preziosi is definitely looking a lot more contrite when he turns up to races now, and there was a real sense of shock among the Ducati staff after the Valencia test.

At Qatar, a member of Rossi's crew said to me "We've got 17 more tests before next year." That tells you what their expectations are.

Seriously Krop, if you keep this up, what are the Boppers going to say? You cannot continue to expose their fantasies aloud and expect them to continue trolling this site....what are your intentions?

As usual, thanks for your contribution. I enjoy your site tremendously!

Mr Squiggle · Jun 1, 2011

Kropotkin said:
Stoner sounded his crew out about a possible move to Honda at the Sepang tests in 2010, which was in February. He'd already made up his mind to leave then. He was tired of not getting the changes to the bike he asked for.

FWIW, I've had a couple of people (well, Australians

) email me who have attended talks given by Jerry Burgess. He has basically said that Ducati was happy to get 4 or 5 wins in a season, and accepted the race crashes as part of the deal. I get the impression they never really expected to be world champions.

Of course, signing Rossi changes that attitude. If Stoner doesn't win a championship, he gets the blame. If Rossi doesn't win a championship, Ducati gets the blame. Preziosi is definitely looking a lot more contrite when he turns up to races now, and there was a real sense of shock among the Ducati staff after the Valencia test.

At Qatar, a member of Rossi's crew said to me "We've got 17 more tests before next year." That tells you what their expectations are.

Cheers Krop....if mythbusters are ever looking for a replacement you da man!

Kropotkin · Jun 1, 2011

I would like to add that the question of whether Stoner's feedback is any good or not, and whether he can develop a bike or not, is currently unknown. You cannot say that he could not develop the Ducati, because Ducati had a big hand in that by ignoring him completely and doing their own thing. Nor can you say that he is a brilliant development rider, as Ducati ignored him and did their own thing. Honda are clearly listening to Stoner much more than Ducati ever did, and with Pedrosa out through injury so often, Stoner will be leading development for Honda's MotoGP effort for some time to come. With the proviso that we're about to switch formulas again, and that might put the cat among the pigeons in exactly the same way that happened back in 2007, it would be fair to look at the 2013 Honda RC213V (or whatever it gets called) and see what Stoner has done with it.

Mr Squiggle · Jun 1, 2011

Kropotkin said:
I would like to add that the question of whether Stoner's feedback is any good or not, and whether he can develop a bike or not, is currently unknown. You cannot say that he could not develop the Ducati, because Ducati had a big hand in that by ignoring him completely and doing their own thing. Nor can you say that he is a brilliant development rider, as Ducati ignored him and did their own thing. Honda are clearly listening to Stoner much more than Ducati ever did, and with Pedrosa out through injury so often, Stoner will be leading development for Honda's MotoGP effort for some time to come. With the proviso that we're about to switch formulas again, and that might put the cat among the pigeons in exactly the same way that happened back in 2007, it would be fair to look at the 2013 Honda RC213V (or whatever it gets called) and see what Stoner has done with it.

Exactly. Ducati became far too reliant on his talent alone to achieve their results. In the end even that simply wasn't enough to overcome the obvious bike limitations he was constantly fighting - especially against the formidable competition he had to face. I believe the stress of having to push that bike week in week out in such a way greatly contributed to his "mystery illness" and it was, in all probability, partly psychosomatic. The human body remains a mystery even with today's scientific advancements and medical knowledge. The brain possibly the most complex system that humans have yet to study.

With Honda he now has an opportunity to steer the ship in his direction. If he fails, he does it of his own accord and the question might finally be answered. Rossi has had the genius of Burgess to assist in this aspect of steering the evolutionary direction of his motorcycles. If Stoner can continue the development of the RCV on its current positive trajectory he will deserve much of the credit for this achievement.

BarryMachine · Jun 1, 2011

woody996 said:
You know very well that when the ducati was most comparable for both riders (2010 to 2011) that stoner did not win a single race for quite a while. Jury is out as to whether vr will win by season's end but be a little fair about it. It's also worth noting that the hondas are comparatively better this year than last as you have dovi outpacing everyone who isn't on a Honda. Otherwise the gap maybe negligible to the front. Lorenzo is riding back in the same air at the moment and I think he will suffer at catalunya with the yamaha losing out in the high speed areas.

Believe me I am being fair!

I just don't think you guys have a real hand on the situation ......... even I was stunned at Rossi's performance on the Duc ! ........ and as you know ...... thats saying something.

levigarrett · Jun 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
Let's just say CS provided feedback on the Duc's handling issues - and they didn't listen - that begs the question of why not - I doubt if it had anything to do with his english language skills (point you dreamed up) - maybe they didn't respect his description, give him credit for understanding or maybe he just wasn't objective enough for them. - hopefully he was more objective than your "communicate to Ducati that their bike was a steaming pile of ....."

As for the other riders - the sat teams definitely did not have the clout, capi is steadily losing his credentials from season to season, marco - amongst other things gave up. Bottom line is that if CS was talking and Duc weren't listening - then there was a breakdown in communication and this is rarely completely one sided.

I do agree totally - read my post - that CS riding and racing skills were the key to the successes Duc had - and you've got a point that this probably fueled the arrogance which recognized only the WINs and not the DNF's

Yes Ducati did recognize that they had problems - enter JB and his objective criticism - based significantly on VR feedback. Your comments around not making top 7 are out of whack with race results, which also cans your "virtually" unrideable allusion

That's just precious....

spooky · Jun 2, 2011

Kropotkin said:
I would like to add that the question of whether Stoner's feedback is any good or not, and whether he can develop a bike or not, is currently unknown. You cannot say that he could not develop the Ducati, because Ducati had a big hand in that by ignoring him completely and doing their own thing. Nor can you say that he is a brilliant development rider, as Ducati ignored him and did their own thing. Honda are clearly listening to Stoner much more than Ducati ever did, and with Pedrosa out through injury so often, Stoner will be leading development for Honda's MotoGP effort for some time to come. With the proviso that we're about to switch formulas again, and that might put the cat among the pigeons in exactly the same way that happened back in 2007, it would be fair to look at the 2013 Honda RC213V (or whatever it gets called) and see what Stoner has done with it.

Do you think though, that because of the very unique way he rides the bike, that development might be a tad scewed for those that ride the bike in the 'conventional' 250cc, high corner speed style?

Kropotkin · Jun 2, 2011

spooky said:
Do you think though, that because of the very unique way he rides the bike, that development might be a tad scewed for those that ride the bike in the 'conventional' 250cc, high corner speed style?

I think we don't have enough data to make that judgment. The rider who Stoner most resembles is Dani Pedrosa, who also stands it up as quickly as possible to fire it out of the corner. Stoner's time at Ducati doesn't really teach us much about Stoner's development skills, it is telling about Ducati's R&D approach and expectations. Both of those changed radically when they signed Rossi. A few wins a season is no longer acceptable.

spooky · Jun 2, 2011

Kropotkin said:
I think we don't have enough data to make that judgment. The rider who Stoner most resembles is Dani Pedrosa, who also stands it up as quickly as possible to fire it out of the corner. Stoner's time at Ducati doesn't really teach us much about Stoner's development skills, it is telling about Ducati's R&D approach and expectations. Both of those changed radically when they signed Rossi. A few wins a season is no longer acceptable.

Good points, Stoner must of breathed a massive sigh of relief when getting onto that Honda, with it being developed by Pedrosa for the past few years it was a bike that was practically set-up for him from the get-go. That with his skill on the bike and the goal posts where moved. I wonder if Ducati almost resent having Rossi due the the massive amount of pressure he brings....i know some people on this forum resent him for that reason but you have to ask, what did they expect signing a 9 times world champion with his kind of popularity?

Kropotkin · Jun 2, 2011

spooky said:
I wonder if Ducati almost resent having Rossi due the the massive amount of pressure he brings....i know some people on this forum resent him for that reason but you have to ask, what did they expect signing a 9 times world champion with his kind of popularity?

Not resent, but I think they did underestimate it.

Mental Anarchist · Jun 2, 2011

spooky said:
Do you think though, that because of the very unique way he rides the bike, that development might be a tad scewed for those that ride the bike in the 'conventional' 250cc, high corner speed style?

I remember an interview with Stoner some time ago where he discussed his focus coming up through the smaller classes. He said that he never built his style to be successful on the smaller bikes that require the high corner speed. His focus right from the beginning was developing a style for the big bikes so when he got there he was already ready and did not have to change anything.

spooky · Jun 2, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
I remember an interview with Stoner some time ago where he discussed his focus coming up through the smaller classes. He said that he never built his style to be successful on the smaller bikes that require the high corner speed. His focus right from the beginning was developing a style for the big bikes so when he got there he was already ready and did not have to change anything.

Thats pretty cool. Casey, Pedrosa and Rossi are the only aliens that have ridden the big 990's in anger, i wonder if the extra torque of the 1000's will have a detrimental affect on the likes of Lorenzo etc?

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Burgess, Stoner, Rossi, Capirossi, Bayliss re: 800 Ducati

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