Bridgestone's Problems at Qatar

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 3 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hahaha you are dead set half wit Junkie. ...... we are talking whether Rossi is faring better on Bridgestone or Michelin
No, you are pontificating. "Talking" would involve responding to the posts that try to reply to your comments.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 2 2008, 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dun worry, he'll be on dual compound next season, will be special allowance for #1 whinger.

Who casey?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 3 2008, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>in bizaro world yeah.

if lorenzo or pedrosa win IN 08, then IN 09 ROSSI will move to micheline to prove he lost in 08 coz it was on of the brisdgestone ahahhahahaha

MOST STUPID LOGIC IVE HEARD IN A WHILE

rossi wants to win in 08 full stop. not to prove a point in 07 that is was the tires. though if he does get beat by horhey then he will have a big egg omlette on his face fore-ever.

Who said Rossi (or other riders) function logically? The 'stupid' thing (using your words) is looking for logic where there are just raw pride and a strong will to beat the other guy.

Rossi in 2008 wants to beat Stoner! Rossi always needs to single out ONE rival - usually the fastest one - and race on him, that's how he functions. That's how he won his titles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 3 2008, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi changed tyres because he thought it would give him a better chance at the world title, regardless of who is the biggest contender. He is an ..... if he doesnt take Pedrosa seriously, but we already know that he does.

Yes of course when you win the title that means you have beaten everybody. But Rossi always needs to focus on one rival, and this year that rival is undoubtely Stoner. In 2007 he started focusing on Pedro, but Stoner surprised him. He functions like that, it's not a genenric ambition to be champ that drives him. He needs someone with a name and a face to race against.

My statement that he would prefer to beat Stoner than winning the championship, is just a way of making this point. There is little doubt that by consistently beating Stoner, one would also win the title in 2008... But I'm sure Rossi concentrates first on the man to beat, the prize comes as a consequence.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 4 2008, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes of course when you win the title that means you have beaten everybody. But Rossi always needs to focus on one rival, and this year that rival is undoubtely Stoner. In 2007 he started focusing on Pedro, but Stoner surprised him. He functions like that, it's not a genenric ambition to be champ that drives him. He needs someone with a name and a face to race against.

My statement that he would prefer to beat Stoner than winning the championship, is just a way of making this point. There is little doubt that by consistently beating Stoner, one would also win the title in 2008... But I'm sure Rossi concentrates first on the man to beat, the prize comes as a consequence.
That's an interesting way to look at it. But you can come unstuck doing that: Kenny Roberts Junior in 1999 was focused on Doohan, and won the first two races. Then Doohan had his career-ending injury and Junior lost the plot (I think Criville peeled off the next five out of six races), and didn't get back on track until the championship was effectively gone. In fact, only late-season nerves from Criville made it anything more than a mathematical chance.

Another thing is that Stoner is a different type of rider from Biaggi, Gibernau, etc. For one thing he's already a world champion, and, by my count, in 2007 went 2-1 against Rossi in so-called head-to-head racing. It's more likely the pressure of being defending champion, and trying to maintain Ducati's dominance would get to him, than the pentrating gaze of Rossi's evil eye.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2008, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes of course when you win the title that means you have beaten everybody. But Rossi always needs to focus on one rival, and this year that rival is undoubtely Stoner. In 2007 he started focusing on Pedro, but Stoner surprised him. He functions like that, it's not a genenric ambition to be champ that drives him. He needs someone with a name and a face to race against.

My statement that he would prefer to beat Stoner than winning the championship, is just a way of making this point. There is little doubt that by consistently beating Stoner, one would also win the title in 2008... But I'm sure Rossi concentrates first on the man to beat, the prize comes as a consequence.

I think your psychoanalysis of Rossi is a little wide of the mark. He is wise enough to know that second place in the championship is not acceptable even if he is ahead of Casey Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 3 2008, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think your psychoanalysis of Rossi is a little wide of the mark. He is wise enough to know that second place in the championship is not acceptable even if he is ahead of Casey Stoner.

I do not know about psychoanalysis, but I know what Rossi answered after Jerez to people asking him about Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Stoner. He said, I know Stoner had a bad day, but he's the man to beat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thom @ Apr 3 2008, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who casey?


No Casey is what we Scots call "A greetin faced ......." rather than a whinger.

Rossi is a whinger, according to the guy who uses most kleenex on this site. He alledgedly gets very excited while proving how much he doesn't know. (And checkin out .... while he's at it.)


Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rising Sun @ Apr 3 2008, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's an interesting way to look at it. But you can come unstuck doing that: Kenny Roberts Junior in 1999 was focused on Doohan, and won the first two races. Then Doohan had his career-ending injury and Junior lost the plot (I think Criville peeled off the next five out of six races), and didn't get back on track until the championship was effectively gone. In fact, only late-season nerves from Criville made it anything more than a mathematical chance.

Another thing is that Stoner is a different type of rider from Biaggi, Gibernau, etc. For one thing he's already a world champion, and, by my count, in 2007 went 2-1 against Rossi in so-called head-to-head racing. It's more likely the pressure of being defending champion, and trying to maintain Ducati's dominance would get to him, than the pentrating gaze of Rossi's evil eye.

Yes, Stoner is different. Stoner is not going so much into personal rivalries, he races against the clock mostly. He reminds me of Agostini, who during the years of MV unopposed dominance - 1968 to 1972 - always made a point of improving the track records racing against his own lap times of the previous year...

On the other hand Rossi needs a physical target to race against. When the opposition was weak, a rider like Rossi did not disappper into the distance racing against the clock and his own limit, he waited for someone to come up and then he raced on that one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Apr 3 2008, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No Casey is what we Scots call "A greetin faced ......." rather than a whinger.

Rossi is a whinger, according to the guy who uses most kleenex on this site. He alledgedly gets very excited while proving how much he doesn't know. (And checkin out .... while he's at it.)
Dude, dude! You're killing me.....

Hahaha. Now this was laugh out loud funny.

(I wonder if we'll see a dumb & dumber protest?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2008, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On the other hand Rossi needs a physical target to race against. When the opposition was weak, a rider like Rossi did not disappper into the distance racing against the clock and his own limit, he waited for someone to come up and then he raced on that one.

- or he might race the artificial oponent when he get a time penalty

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 3 2008, 04:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hahaha you are dead set half wit Junkie. ...... we are talking whether Rossi is faring better on Bridgestone or Michelin .and you bring Stoner into it ..... why? ..... how is this remotely pertinent? ...... two counts ..

1. Stoner is not Rossi
2. Stoner was on Bridgestone in 07 and is still in 08

why didn't you pick say Hopper?, or Melandri?, or Vermulen? they stayed on Bridgestone


I see logic isn’t your strong suit (or moderate suit at that). I know it must be difficult for you to follow along sometimes, but to recap, you tried to make a connection to Rossi’s tire performance from last year’s two rounds and this year’s to rounds and make some kind of conclusion. Well using your own ill-conceived logic, I showed you what an absurd statement you made from what is a weak hypothesis. But I see you had difficulty following along once I threw Stoner into your own pathetic logic. It seems your bias for Stoner (and thus your inability to follow along on this) is only eclipsed by your willingness to apply implausible logic that supports your bias conclusion for Rossi on Bridgestones.

Perhaps another attempt, but this time I’ll use easy words: I realize you were trying to compare Michelin and Bridgestone in relation to Rossi. You compared two rounds last year to two rounds this year (as your basis/evidence), then made your conclusion. I use this very same logic, and applied it to Stoner. Yes, he was on the same brand, but I am using your logic (basis/evidence) of comparing two rounds to make a conclusion. As you can see (or you should) that the logic does not support your very weak conclusion when applied to Stoner. My point is this (which you missed): It is much too small of a sample to make such a definite statement that Rossi has not performed well on the Bridestones. In other words, it’s much too early to tell if the switch was a good one or a bad one; yet, (that is, if even it is possible to effectively ever know).

Your magnificent scientific conclusion is:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins.

07 after round 2 Rossi ....... 1st

08 after round 2 Rossi ....... 3rd

And as if it wasn’t absurd enough, you repeat it again:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The end result is Rossi went bridgestone to do better ..... this has not happened

I don’t disagree with you that we can eventually make a broad conclusion as to the question did the switch to bridgestones reap some benefit for Rossi. But it’s a joke to think we can make such a conclusion after two rounds. But hey, I guess everybody has a right to foot-in-mouth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 4 2008, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don’t disagree with you that we can eventually make a broad conclusion as to the question did the switch to bridgestones reap some benefit for Rossi. But it’s a joke to think we can make such a conclusion after two rounds. But hey, I guess everybody has a right to foot-in-mouth.

The end benefit, for our sake, of the whole Rossi is going Bridgestone question, was that when he changed tyres we would then see if indeed as he thought ...... bridgestone are better ....

Whether he is at round 1 or 16 only affects the final probability that an answer is pretty correct.

But .... if you set a goal you can watch at any stage and say "wel yes we are "on target" ... "below target" ....... or "above target" ......... like sticking to section times in a Rally/enduro .......

In your incredible wisdom, knowing all the, markers/criteria of success, or failure to meet the levels set last year ............... would you dare say he is "above target"??

If you want to argue against me because I have ruffled your petticoats in the past at least try and use some sense

Early stage or not, nobody can say Rossi is "on par" with his last years performance to date, to do so is entering into the world of "fairytales" ...... so not justifyiable

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 3 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The end benefit, for our sake, of the whole Rossi is going Bridgestone question, was that when he changed tyres we would then see if indeed as he thought ...... bridgestone are better ....

Whether he is at round 1 or 16 only affects the final probability that an answer is pretty correct.

But .... if you set a goal you can watch at any stage and say "wel yes we are "on target" ... "below target" ....... or "above target" ......... like sticking to section times in a Rally/enduro .......

In your incredible wisdom, knowing all the, markers/criteria of success, or failure to meet the levels set last year ............... would you dare say he is "above target"??

If you want to argue against me because I have ruffled your petticoats in the past at least try and use some sense

Early stage or not, nobody can say Rossi is "on par" with his last years performance to date, to do so is entering into the world of "fairytales" ...... so not justifyiable
Your premise for the argument is fatally flawed. You would need to compare Rossi on the 2008 Michelin with Rossi on the 2008 Bridgestone in order to determine whether he has made the correct choice. Last time I checked this was not possible.

This means that nobody can say whether Rossi is "on par" or not with last year - you are trying to compare apples with oranges, or to use your words "entering into the world of unjustifiable fairytales".

Are you really trying to say that you would expect Rossi's position in the championship to be the same as last year after Jerez if he'd remained on Michelins? What about tyre development, bike development, the influx of new riders, the switching of bikes by other riders?

As I said, luckily Motogp works differently than this, otherwise Stoner would be guaranteed the Championship as he's still on the same bike and tyres.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 3 2008, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your premise for the argument is fatally flawed. You would need to compare Rossi on the 2008 Michelin with Rossi on the 2008 Bridgestone in order to determine whether he has made the correct choice. Last time I checked this was not possible.

This means that nobody can say whether Rossi is "on par" or not with last year - you are trying to compare apples with oranges, or to use your words "entering into the world of unjustifiable fairytales".
Yes I agree in the “absolute” sense Yakama. This is why I qualified it by saying, “if ever we will know.” However, I think the point that Berry was trying to make (before he fuddled it all up with a definitive conclusion) was that eventually, once we have a large sample of races (I would say the entire season) then we will be able to make a “broad statement” of whether or not Rossi going to Bridgestone paid off. I realize there will be many factors to consider; this again is why I qualify my statement. Surely as you said there are many factors to consider: bike development, weather, flukes, unforeseen disruptions by other riders, DNFs, age (Rossi), etc, etc, ect. But at the end of the season, we may be able to make some kind of assessment. Berry thinks after two round we can make a definitive conclusion, I don’t. Of course he backpedaled and said, well perhaps its a benchmark toward the goal (ok); and I would agree with that much more mild characterization (but still way to soon). But we will see what happens. I have a hunch though, that at the end of the season, no matter what happens, the fans of both riders will line up behind their own very similar but mutually exclusive assessment of what actually happened.

Nonetheless ..... by the only measure available ..... so far Rossi is not at the same pace/level at this point in time.


To deny this is now like saying that all the Rossi fan claims of the Michelins were .... ... were so obviously nul and void ......

Its a two way street! ....... but folks general realisation when Rossi went Bridgestone was ..... "well ok who really knows if he will go better when he rides on Bridgestones or not?" ..... lets see next year .... guess what!! .... its next year and the data is coming in for the answer to that question .....


and its swinging one way ...........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 4 2008, 01:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nonetheless ..... by the only measure available ..... so far Rossi is not at the same pace/level at this point in time.


To deny this is now like saying that all the Rossi fan claims of the Michelins were .... ... were so obviously nul and void ......

Its a two way street! ....... but folks general realisation when Rossi went Bridgestone was ..... "well ok who really knows if he will go better when he rides on Bridgestones or not?" ..... lets see next year .... guess what!! .... its next year and the data is coming in for the answer to that question .....


and its swinging one way ...........


In 2007 Michelin had cut their budget 30%, for 2008 they have increased it 40%. This IMHO is sufficient proof that Rossi's complains were more than justified.
In 2008, with restored budget and a timely increase in the allowed number of tyres, Michelin is bound to perform better. No big surprise!
Bridgestone may have even more money to burn though, plus they have the best two riders in the world... So let's wait and see... For the real answer to that question I would wait to see what happens at Le Mans, Laguna Seca, Assen, Sachsenring...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 4 2008, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In 2007 Michelin had cut their budget 30%, for 2008 they have increased it 40%. This IMHO is sufficient proof that Rossi's complains were more than justified.
In 2008, with restored budget and a timely increase in the allowed number of tyres, Michelin is bound to perform better. No big surprise!
Bridgestone may have even more money to burn though, plus they have the best two riders in the world... So let's wait and see... For the real answer to that question I would wait to see what happens at Le Mans, Laguna Seca, Assen, Sachsenring...


I'm not saying he wasn't justified at all .... matter of fact I thought it was a great idea Rossi going to Bridgestone ..... it certainly is the only way to answer any speculation on the whole tyre question.

But I do see him as the best measure for a tyre comparo .... as not many have swapped tyres with such little else changed ....... ie. most tyre swaps are only achieved with a team/brand swap.

This has been the only recent occurence where a rider kept so many of the "variables".

If not ....... well there should have been this speculation when say Stoner left LCR/Michelin ...

Not sure I'd agree that it wasn't quite a chore for Bridgestone to add him.

Burgess was quoted as follows in AMCN this week:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The suggestion that the switch to Bridgestone is a mistake is absolute crap - everything will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Bridgestone won 12 races and the championship last year so there is nothing wrong with the tyres and there were four Yamahas in the top seven places in Qatar. And two Yamahas on the poduim in Jerez, so there is nothing wrong with the bike. That leaves the rider and the team and there is nothing wrong with the rider. We have absolute confidence in Valentino - so that leaves the team.

We knew we would need at least a couple of races to understand the performance of the tyres over a race distance and we now have that information. There is no panic: we know what to do. Valentino needs a set-up that does not waste the rear tyre early in the race so that he has something left at the end. He needs to attack, not ride defensively late in the race