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Bridgestone's Problems at Qatar

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 3 2008, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As Motogp does not utilise a single make bike with tyres being the only variable, this is sheer speculation and cannot be viewed as being supported by any facts.


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oh so now the latest "fairytale" is ........ the results don't count

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 2 2008, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As Motogp does not utilise a single make bike with tyres being the only variable, this is sheer speculation and cannot be viewed as being supported by any facts.

I don't think what you say is true.

I believe the bikes in MotoGP are close enough to make accruate assumptions. I think its the riders that make the biggest difference. For example last year if I remove Rossi and Pedrosa's results Michelin would have been utter crap. at the same time If I had removed Stoner, Bridgestone would have taken a big hit. Keep in mind there was a rider on identical equipment for each of these riders so the biggest variable was the rider.

I believe there was 3 riders last year there were heads and shoulders above the rest and about 4 riders who were back markers. If I wanted to make it much more accurate I could remove these riders and only use the tight nit middle pack and you could come up with a pretty accurate assumption of which tire was superior and at which tracks. Such as Quatar would have been been michelin tracks. Tracks such as Assen, Catalunya, Mugello, Shanghia would have made Michelin looks so bad Dorna would have gone with the one tire rule
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As I was going through the races from last year it was often

Bridgestone
Rossi
Pedrosa
Bridgestone
Bridgestone
Bridgestone

There was a few races where they were the only Michelins in the top 8.

But on a closer look who else was on Michelins?

Hayden
Edwards
Checa
Nakano
Roberts

Not exactly the elite in MotoGP except maybe Hayden and maybe, maybe Edwards.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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oh so now the latest "fairytale" is ........ the results don't count
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I didn't say that the results don't count, you numpty. Try to read past my Rossi avatar.

I said that your "facts" were pure speculation when considered in terms of whether Rossi made the correct choice to move to the Stones.

Firstly, development of all the bikes has continued during the last 12 months, not to mention rider changes, so comparing 07 Jerez with 08 Jerez is not comparing apples to apples. Don't get me started on the Qatar waste of electricity.

Secondly we don't know if the development done by Michelin is in a direction that would have helped or hindered Rossi. He made the choice to switch based on far more accurate info than any of us are likely to get hold of.

The fact that he was the highest placed Bridgestone rider, and that place was 2nd, at a track considered to be a Michelin one implies that he is adjusting to the Stones.

He was also ahead of Lorenzo on a Michelin shod "identical" bike when it actually came to the race.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ Apr 3 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think what you say is true.

I believe the bikes in MotoGP are close enough to make accruate assumptions. I think its the riders that make the biggest difference. For example last year if I remove Rossi and Pedrosa's results Michelin would have been utter crap. at the same time If I had removed Stoner, Bridgestone would have taken a big hit. Keep in mind there was a rider on identical equipment for each of these riders so the biggest variable was the rider.

I believe there was 3 riders last year there were heads and shoulders above the rest and about 4 riders who were back markers. If I wanted to make it much more accurate I could remove these riders and only use the tight nit middle pack and you could come up with a pretty accurate assumption of which tire was superior and at which tracks. Such as Quatar would have been been michelin tracks. Tracks such as Assen, Catalunya, Mugello, Shanghia would have made Michelin looks so bad Dorna would have gone with the one tire rule
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As I was going through the races from last year it was often

Bridgestone
Rossi
Pedrosa
Bridgestone
Bridgestone
Bridgestone

There was a few races where they were the only Michelins in the top 8.

But on a closer look who else was on Michelins?

Hayden
Edwards
Checa
Nakano
Roberts

Not exactly the elite in MotoGP except maybe Hayden and maybe, maybe Edwards.
What you say is correct, and interesting.

My point was that comparing Qatar/Jerez 08 with Qatar/Jerez 07 and finding that Rossi is lower down the championship in 08 does not imply that Rossi would have been better served remaining with Michelin. There are many more variables than the tyres to consider.

I don't think that this contradicts anything in your post
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 3 2008, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point was that comparing Qatar/Jerez 08 with Qatar/Jerez 07 and finding that Rossi is lower down the championship in 08 does not imply that Rossi would have been better served remaining with Michelin.

How does it not?
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The end result is Rossi went bridgestone to do better ..... this has not happened
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same machinery, same tires not equal same results.

stoner vs loris vs mealndri

rossi vs edwards vs lorenzo

hayden vs pedrosa
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ Apr 3 2008, 01:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think what you say is true.

I believe the bikes in MotoGP are close enough to make accruate assumptions. I think its the riders that make the biggest difference. For example last year if I remove Rossi and Pedrosa's results Michelin would have been utter crap. at the same time If I had removed Stoner, Bridgestone would have taken a big hit. Keep in mind there was a rider on identical equipment for each of these riders so the biggest variable was the rider.

I believe there was 3 riders last year there were heads and shoulders above the rest and about 4 riders who were back markers. If I wanted to make it much more accurate I could remove these riders and only use the tight nit middle pack and you could come up with a pretty accurate assumption of which tire was superior and at which tracks. Such as Quatar would have been been michelin tracks. Tracks such as Assen, Catalunya, Mugello, Shanghia would have made Michelin looks so bad Dorna would have gone with the one tire rule
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As I was going through the races from last year it was often

Bridgestone
Rossi
Pedrosa
Bridgestone
Bridgestone
Bridgestone

There was a few races where they were the only Michelins in the top 8.

But on a closer look who else was on Michelins?

Hayden
Edwards
Checa
Nakano
Roberts

Not exactly the elite in MotoGP except maybe Hayden and maybe, maybe Edwards.

+2
Great Analysis PrjZ0!
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I've looked at the results as well just to see which tracks favor which brand and to assess whether or not the Gap has been closed by Michelin or Bridgestone.

I agree, you can gain insight into tyre performance by track as well as make more educated statements around bike/rider performance.

Good stuff. Keep it coming. This brings a bit of higher level discussion versus just I don't like this guy because he is not animated or doesnt smile as much as our specific hero.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 3 2008, 01:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How does it not?
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The end result is Rossi went bridgestone to do better ..... this has not happened
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Because the results he might have achieved on 2008 Michelin tyres are unknowable. He might have been even lower in the standings than 3rd.

As I said before, development of the bikes has continued during the last 12 months, as has tyre development, so comparing 07 Qatar/Jerez with 08 Qatar/Jerez is not comparing apples with apples.

If it were then we could just gift Stoner the championship as he has not changed bike/tyres and so will perform as dominantly as in 2007.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ Apr 2 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I believe the bikes in MotoGP are close enough to make accruate assumptions. ... Keep in mind there was a rider on identical equipment for each of these riders so the biggest variable was the rider.

Tracks such as Assen, Catalunya, Mugello, Shanghia would have made Michelin looks so bad Dorna would have gone with the one tire rule
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As I was going through the races from last year it was often
I disagree with some points and agree with others. First of all, this is prototype and 07 was the first year with a major displacement change. I seriously doubt the bikes were "close enough" in development to make "accurate" assumptions. Even on the same team, the bikes were different in significant ways. In the first year of such a major change in what is prototype racing, in the first year is when the bikes are MOST different (in other words, least similar). I'm a bit confused with your point about Michelin on the tracks you listed. Also, as you were going through the races, did you factor in DNFs where Rossi, Pedrosa, & Hayden would have surely placed higher?

I think your were making the point that both Bridgestone and Michelin had fair parity. I have a tendency of agreeing with this assessment, but the season was so wacky and dominated by one Bridgestone rider, that the tendency of saying the tire was better can be made.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How does it not?
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The end result is Rossi went bridgestone to do better ..... this has not happened
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Way too soon to tell (if ever). Last year after two races Stoner won one (Bstone) Rossi won the other (Michelin), could we have made an assumption about who had the better tires then?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 2 2008, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins.

07 after round 2 Rossi ....... 1st

08 after round 2 Rossi ....... 3rd

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Hahahaha, this is great. You make a case to compare tires after two rounds. Ok then lets see if your magnificent scientific postulation based on two rounds makes sense:

07 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 2 Stoner......4th Oh my God, what's happened to those Bridgestones???

From your statment above; your conclusion:
"Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins."
Using your reasoning:
<strike>Rossi</strike> Stoner is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on <strike>Michelins</strike> Bridgestones.
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Please man, lets try and make some intelligent analysis shall we. Tires are not the only factor here, so why must you try and isolated them?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 2 2008, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree with some points and agree with others. First of all, this is prototype and 07 was the first year with a major displacement change. I seriously doubt the bikes were "close enough" in development to make "accurate" assumptions. Even on the same team, the bikes were different in significant ways. In the first year of such a major change in what is prototype racing, in the first year is when the bikes are MOST different (in other words, least similar). I'm a bit confused with your point about Michelin on the tracks you listed. Also, as you were going through the races, did you factor in DNFs where Rossi, Pedrosa, & Hayden would have surely placed higher?

I think your were making the point that both Bridgestone and Michelin had fair parity. I have a tendency of agreeing with this assessment, but the season was so wacky and dominated by one Bridgestone rider, that the tendency of saying the tire was better can be made.

I don't doubt there were differences from Rossi's to Edwards bike, or Hayden to Pedrosa's, or maybe even Stoner's to Caparossi's. But I don't think the difference in bikes between each team mate was huge. Agree?

Then we can look at Edwards, Hayden, Caparossi, lump them in with Melandri, Hopkins, Vermulen, and we can see how close they finished in the chamionship and how close they finished in some of the races. Now we can assume that the bikes were indeed some what close. Agree?

Now if we take Rossi Pedrosa and Stoner, They clearly were just better then anyone else, on the same bike, tire, doesnt matter. Its clear they are better riders. So if they rode "similar" bikes to their team mates who only finished mid pack and the bikes mid pack were some what close. We can assume all the bikes are some what close and the riders make the biggest difference. Agree?

I know even the best rider on a poor bike doesn't have a chance. the races at Quatar and Shanghia last year were a joke to watch with the HUGE speed advantage Stoner had at the first few races. But For most of the year, I think the bikes weren't seperated by as much as the riders were seperated by talent.

I tried my best to make the tires equal last year using facts. I tried to take out the top 2 riders for each tire maker in each race which would have often included Stoner, Rossi and Pedrosa, but the results became even more one sided. I already removed the wet races, I could have just removed the races Pedrosa or Rossi didn't finish but then we would just be making excuses for Michelin.

Facts are facts. And I used FACTS, which is the average finishing position for the top five riders on each tire. Those are hard numbers that don't lie. What I used the facts for was to make an assumption like I stated. An assumption is a normative statement so please don't confuse the assumption as fact also.

So what this means is I have facts to back up my assumption.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 2 2008, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hahahaha, this is great. You make a case to compare tires after two rounds. Ok then lets see if your magnificent scientific postulation based on two rounds makes sense:

07 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 2 Stoner......4th Oh my God, what's happened to those Bridgestones???

From your statment above; your conclusion:
"Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins."
Using your reasoning:
<strike>Rossi</strike> Stoner is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on <strike>Michelins</strike> Bridgestones.
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Please man, lets try and make some intelligent analysis shall we. Tires are not the only factor here, so why must you try and isolated them?

DP
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ Apr 2 2008, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How about this

Stoner in the first two races scored a 1st and 5th last year
Rossi in the first two races scored a 5th and 2nd

My assumption is Rossi is about as good as Stoner one the Bridgestones
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 2 2008, 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dun worry, he'll be on dual compound next season, will be special allowance for #1 whinger.

Sometimes you have good ideas.
Why should it be just for Rossi though - everybody should have freedom of choice, and why not throw in Dunlop and Pirelli also for good measure - it would make our races so much more interesting
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 3 2008, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How does it not?
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The end result is Rossi went bridgestone to do better ..... this has not happened
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This has not happened... YET.
What has already happened is that Rossi has done better than Stoner in Jerez, on the same rubber.
Rossi is focusing on that this year - trying to do better than Stoner, the real man to beat. That's why he wanted the Bridgestones, - to remove variables when measuring himself against him. Even if Pedrosa or Lorenzo win the championship, Rossi will be happy if at the end of the season he'll be ahead of Stoner. That's the point he wants to prove.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2008, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This has not happened... YET.
What has already happened is that Rossi has done better than Stoner in Jerez, on the same rubber.
Rossi is focusing on that this year - trying to do better than Stoner, the real man to beat. That's why he wanted the Bridgestones, - to remove variables when measuring himself against him. Even if Pedrosa or Lorenzo win the championship, Rossi will be happy if at the end of the season he'll be ahead of Stoner. That's the point he wants to prove.
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in bizaro world yeah.
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if lorenzo or pedrosa win IN 08, then IN 09 ROSSI will move to micheline to prove he lost in 08 coz it was on of the brisdgestone ahahhahahaha

MOST STUPID LOGIC IVE HEARD IN A WHILE
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rossi wants to win in 08 full stop. not to prove a point in 07 that is was the tires. though if he does get beat by horhey then he will have a big egg omlette on his face fore-ever.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 3 2008, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This has not happened... YET.
What has already happened is that Rossi has done better than Stoner in Jerez, on the same rubber.
Rossi is focusing on that this year - trying to do better than Stoner, the real man to beat. That's why he wanted the Bridgestones, - to remove variables when measuring himself against him. Even if Pedrosa or Lorenzo win the championship, Rossi will be happy if at the end of the season he'll be ahead of Stoner. That's the point he wants to prove.
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Rossi changed tyres because he thought it would give him a better chance at the world title, regardless of who is the biggest contender. He is an ..... if he doesnt take Pedrosa seriously, but we already know that he does.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 3 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hahahaha, this is great. You make a case to compare tires after two rounds. Ok then lets see if your magnificent scientific postulation based on two rounds makes sense:

07 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 1 Stoner......1st
08 after round 2 Stoner......4th Oh my God, what's happened to those Bridgestones???

From your statment above; your conclusion:
"Rossi is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on Michelins."
Using your reasoning:
<strike>Rossi</strike> Stoner is not as good on Bridgestones as he was on <strike>Michelins</strike> Bridgestones.
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Please man, lets try and make some intelligent analysis shall we. Tires are not the only factor here, so why must you try and isolated them?


hahaha you are dead set half wit Junkie. ...... we are talking whether Rossi is faring better on Bridgestone or Michelin .and you bring Stoner into it ..... why? ..... how is this remotely pertinent? ...... two counts ..

1. Stoner is not Rossi
2. Stoner was on Bridgestone in 07 and is still in 08

why didn't you pick say Hopper?, or Melandri?, or Vermulen? they stayed on Bridgestone
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