Bridgepoint to bring MotoGP and WSBK under one umbrella

Ezpeleta has won.

Superbike under the direction of the Flammini brothers had been gradually taking prototype territory, performance wise and also image wise as a top world series, to the point that riders and manufacturers found it increasingly alluring to leave MotoGP and go to SBK; by taking control of both series and making SBK return to their original stock-derived concept, Dorna wants to make it inevitable for manufacturers like BMW and Aprilia, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to leave the SBK races to private or secondary efforts and concentrate their official efforts on MotoGP.

Notice how the Flammini name has disappeared overnight from all press releases. The battle was over the moment Dorna acquired Infront.

There was no room for two top world series anyway.

Pity the series that lost has the perfect name for a top motorcycle racing championship: World Superbike. Great name.

dbl

thedeal said:

To be honest i dont see a problem with CRT and people were swapping engines and frames around to try and get an advantage as privateers in the early days of Grand Prix racing,it was the Factories arriving with bottomless budgets that stopped individual partisipation and small manufacturers from racing,we are now at a turning point and i hope Honda,Yamaha and Ducati go so we have a new era to watch grow.

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I made a featherbed reference in post #48 - the reason being firstly that in "those days" a frame was steel and any good welder could build one. Post war the material and people with the skill were readily available to act independently from manufacturers.



I think the technologies now with exotic materials, electronic suspension and motor (traction) is so specialised that there isn't the pool of people to do this to the scale required for independent and non factory supported effort. While I was typing this MM made a post that date stamps the "point of no return" at 1974. Darwin also got snotted by a cyclone that year.



The cost of technologies is now too great and the expertise too rare for a return to the featherbed. It has been consigned to museums for people of MM's age to nostalgically and wistfully reminisce about and say "remember when".



Apropos the Yamaha motogp thing, my first real road bike was a 1987 Yamaha "Genesis" model FZR750. The most hideous day-glow orange Marlboro paint scheme. I know because I was watching bike racing and some yank rode one I was so damn impressed with.



The factories were king then...

michaelm said:

When did this occur?

Modern gp racing has been honda and yamaha since about 1974, with occasional incursions from suzuki and latterly ducati, the latter not as I recall very popular at the time despite the condemnation of honda currently. Prior to that (before even my time and hence yours) it was mv augusta for the best part of 2 decades, after a previous occasion when all the other factories dropped out.

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Its happened over decades of GP racing remember Patton,Harris,Roc,Exactweld,Kreidler,Morrbidelli,all these are from the more modern era without going back further to NSU,Guzzi,AJS,Mondial,Bultaco etc,my point is no one can compete with the budgets of Honda when it comes to GP so CRT is not a bad idea stop the fraight train of cost,Ezzy has even offered them free electronics for a season and the fixed cost for all teams.

thedeal said:

Its happened over decades of GP racing remember Patton,Harris,Roc,Exactweld,Kreidler,Morrbidelli,all these are from the more modern era without going back further to NSU,Guzzi,AJS,Mondial,Bultaco etc,my point is no one can compete with the budgets of Honda when it comes to GP so CRT is not a bad idea stop the fraight train of cost,Ezzy has even offered them free electronics for a season and the fixed cost for all teams.

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Nothing is free. There is a price to pay.

michaelm said:

When did this occur?



Modern gp racing has been honda and yamaha since about 1974, with occasional incursions from suzuki and latterly ducati, the latter not as I recall very popular at the time, despite the current calls for a manufacturer other than honda (winners of one of the last 5 championships, soon to be one of the last 6 and 2 of the last 9) to win . Prior to that (before even my time and hence yours) it was mv augusta for the best part of 2 decades, after a previous occasion when all the other factories dropped out.



If you don't like honda and yamaha you don't like premier class gp bike racing, in which case dorna may well devise something which suits you better.

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Its not that i dont like Honda or Yamaha and i love premier class racing but only 2 competitive bikes is a joke,its not what suits me its whats happening and we cant change it so id rather see the posatives in it than constantly moan like .... about something i cant change.

thedeal said:

Its happened over decades of GP racing remember Patton,Harris,Roc,Exactweld,Kreidler,Morrbidelli,all these are from the more modern era without going back further to NSU,Guzzi,AJS,Mondial,Bultaco etc,my point is no one can compete with the budgets of Honda when it comes to GP so CRT is not a bad idea stop the fraight train of cost,Ezzy has even offered them free electronics for a season and the fixed cost for all teams.

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I am not saying honda and co should be in charge, it should be the FIM or what the FIM was in days of yore.



My argument is with bridgepoint capital and their proxy dorna owning and running the sport for their own profit. Honda and yamaha at least have some demonstrated long term commitment to motor bikes per se.



If you are australian remember what kerry packer, a smarter man than most, said in the light of his world series cricket adventure when the super league war was on; he basically said that sport should be run by sporting organisations, and that he of all people should know.

michaelm said:

I am not saying honda and co should be in charge, it should be the FIM or what the FIM was in previous decades. My argument is with bridgepoint capital and their proxy dorna owning and running the sport for their own profit. Honda and yamnaha at least have some demonstrated long term commitment to motor bikes per se.

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Agreed but if Honda do decide to quit as they have said 2014 will be a Yamaha 123 barring accidents and that is not a premier class that is spec racing that you state you dont like.

thedeal said:

Agreed but if Honda do decide to quit as they have said 2014 will be a Yamaha 123 barring accidents and that is not a premier class that is spec racing that you state you dont like.

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I don't want honda to quit. I want honda, yamaha and ducati to stay, I want the expense and hence of necessity the technology to be limited so that the bikes are not so expensive and more than 2 hondas and 1 or 2 yamahas are competitive, with privateer hondas and yamahas having the chance for an odd win as they once did, and I want it to be made easier for other manufacturers like bmw, aprilia, suzuki and kawasaki to enter. I want the bikes still to be challenging for the riders so that the best have a chance to excel as well though. Close cheap racing could likely be obtained by picking 25 guys with bike licences from the crowd and putting them on identical honda 250 street bikes.

michaelm said:

I don't want honda to quit. I want honda, yamaha and ducati to stay, I want the expense and hence of necessity the technology to be limited so that the bikes are not so expensive and more than 2 hondas and 1 or 2 yamahas are competitive, with privateer hondas and yamahas having the chance for an odd win as they once did, and I want it to be made easier for other manufacturers like bmw, aprilia, suzuki and kawasaki to enter. I want the bikes still to be challenging for the riders so that the best have a chance to excel as well though. Close cheap racing could likely be obtained by picking 25 guys with bike licences from the crowd and putting them on identical honda 250 street bikes.

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Mail that to Ezzy if it turns a buck im sure he wiil give it ago.

ROCKGOD01 said:

I wouldn't say that so fast. Honda has already in the past made mention of starting a rival series with the other manufacturers. If this becomes something to contrived and not going where the companies want for Tech reasons etc, they may pull all their bikes out of each series and do their own thing. So no matter who promotes it and is a rights holder, they only really hold what?, a name or banner/moniker of a series? WHat would happen if the major companies have no confidence and pull out their teams? So it may seem like it right now that Ezy pulled this one over the makers, but the series no matter what still need their bikes.

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To be honest, I think Honda would sooner pull out completely and stop their activies in this type of roadracing than start a rival series. I don't think it's economically feasible, and most likely also not really in their interest. .

J4rn0 said:

Ezpeleta has won.

Superbike under the direction of the Flammini brothers had been gradually taking prototype territory, performance wise and also image wise as a top world series, to the point that riders and manufacturers found it increasingly alluring to leave MotoGP and go to SBK; by taking control of both series and making SBK return to their original stock-derived concept, Dorna wants to make it inevitable for manufacturers like BMW and Aprilia, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to leave the SBK races to private or secondary efforts and concentrate their official efforts on MotoGP.

Notice how the Flammini name has disappeared overnight from all press releases. The battle was over the moment Dorna acquired Infront.

There was no room for two top world series anyway.

Pity the series that lost has the perfect name for a top motorcycle racing championship: World Superbike. Great name.

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Finally J4rno, a post I can completely agree with you.

Jumkie said:

Finally J4rno, a post I can completely agree with you.

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Finally Jum, you are ready to completely agree with a post of mine.

J4rn0 said:

Ezpeleta has won.

Superbike under the direction of the Flammini brothers had been gradually taking prototype territory, performance wise and also image wise as a top world series, to the point that riders and manufacturers found it increasingly alluring to leave MotoGP and go to SBK; by taking control of both series and making SBK return to their original stock-derived concept, Dorna wants to make it inevitable for manufacturers like BMW and Aprilia, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to leave the SBK races to private or secondary efforts and concentrate their official efforts on MotoGP.

Notice how the Flammini name has disappeared overnight from all press releases. The battle was over the moment Dorna acquired Infront.

There was no room for two top world series anyway.

Pity the series that lost has the perfect name for a top motorcycle racing championship: World Superbike. Great name.

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What happens if dorna/bridgepoint being venture capitalists decide to sell out as dorna has spoken of doing in the past and want to dress their balance sheet up to maximise the sale price, and what of the lower levels of the sport which are essentially amateur with people volunteering their efforts for the love of the sport if the apex of the sport is owned by venture capitalists and the basic aim of the sport is now to make money for them? I think it is a perilous model for this sport or any other.



As I have said I think they are attempting to emulate bernie for want of any other ideas. As somebody else said if you are going to go for a business model the participants should have partial ownership of the sport. The only other sport that come to mind which operates similarly is WWE wrestling.

thedeal said:

my point is no one can compete with the budgets of Honda when it comes to GP

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That's it. We have chequebook racing, we want motorcycle racing. Any decisions and changes that helps to make it more affordable and viable for other manufacturers and privateers to compete competitively is good.



Honda being Honda will always find a way to be at or near the front, some of the time.

michaelm said:

What happens if dorna/bridgepoint being venture capitalists decide to sell out as dorna has spoken of doing in the past and want to dress their balance sheet up to maximise the sale price, and what of the lower levels of the sport which are essentially amateur with people volunteering their efforts for the love of the sport if the apex of the sport is owned by venture capitalists and the basic aim of the sport is now to make money for them? I think it is a perilous model for this sport or any other.



As I have said I think they are attempting to emulate bernie for want of any other ideas. As somebody else said if you are going to go for a business model the participants should have partial ownership of the sport. The only other sport that come to mind which operates similarly is WWE wrestling.

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MXGP does the same,moto cross is a golden goose for the owner the same as Moto gp shameful really.

Jumkie said:

Expect to see Wsbk get much slower and defanged of all its appeal. They just put a snake to guard the hen eggs.

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Exactly. Shoot the roosters, they have been getting too much action, and put a snake to guard the hen eggs.

It is a fact that SBKs have been pushing the limits of their formula to become a semi-prototype series.

At the same time MotoGP has been looking for ways to slow down its prototype endless development and cost escalation. First bore limit, then control ECU, rev limit, etc.

The two formulas were destined to meet, and clash, somewhere in between. Dorna is winning but maybe the game is not over yet...

The way i see it, Wsbk has simply done a better job in their series. Some of u guys want to claim they were outside their mission, disagree. Its all still production derived. Unlike GP that was suppose to be full prototype. GP are the more at fault in terms of going away from their mission. And i contend they got in the hole by .... cost advancing rules and their relentless promotion of one man. These two things has made GP unsustainable, so it was them that lost sight of mission. Given CRT is ...., but even their "prototypes" are a strickly dictated formula (something Pov & Bird fail still to understand) making the bikes less than "prototype". Then add the fact the last unique design (GP11) was killed again by stupid rules combined with their need to promote that one man again.



Its the work of businessmen who have killed the more successful product, but as usual through dastardly means. This happens frequently in big business. Look up all the efficiency auto patens oil companies have bought or forced to cease so they can continue peddling oil to the world, etc. Yes, its the way of the world, thats why we have ...... governments. And whats most dastardly is like 1984, they are telling us this is for the greater good of the sport of "motorcycling". Ive read very little opposition in the sport media, even on Kropos site who incorrectly predicted this wouldnt happen back when the take-over , claiming it was only a soccer thing, bla bla (while some of us non experts, street savvy, read the writing on the wall); and even here on the forum peeps are sheepishly accepting it as some good thing. I guess people are content with the fraud that has been this last year in GP to continue and now killing the alternative we 'had'.

In all this, it is probably FIM that is to be blamed the most because of their inaction: they are the motorcycle racing international body and should take care of the sport, but they have been sitting on the wall leaving every decision to Dorna and Jap manufacturers. This makes the future look grim. I was hoping that Ippolito would show some strength, but unfortunately that has not been the case.