Bridgepoint to bring MotoGP and WSBK under one umbrella

Zootalaws said:

Which just goes to show how much work you have to do on your comprehension.

Click to expand...

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]You're forgettable[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I didn't say it was you.[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Which just goes to show how much work you have to do on your comprehension.[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Get over yourself. Say hello to your lick-spittle [/font]

stiefel said:

Damn, did not see that one coming.



Carmelo 1 - Honda 0. Masterstroke.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that so fast. Honda has already in the past made mention of starting a rival series with the other manufacturers. If this becomes something to contrived and not going where the companies want for Tech reasons etc, they may pull all their bikes out of each series and do their own thing. So no matter who promotes it and is a rights holder, they only really hold what?, a name or banner/moniker of a series? WHat would happen if the major companies have no confidence and pull out their teams? So it may seem like it right now that Ezy pulled this one over the makers, but the series no matter what still need their bikes.

Zootalaws said:

The most likely outcome, for 2014, is that WSBK will come closer to AMA/BSB rules, rather than the silhouette class it currently is.



To be fair to MotoGP, WSBK has been creeping further and further from its Superbike roots till it is barely recognisable as a production-based series. MotoGP hasn't really had anywhere to go, being already a prototype class at the top-end of development.



The other thing will be a more media-friendly WSBK. I am sure I would watch it more often and subscribe to a MotoGP.com-style viewing package if the coverage was better. I like going to the races, but find the TV coverage to be a yawn.



YMMV.

Click to expand...

Interesting post Zoot...I for one would like to see the AMA/BSB rules fall in line with WSBK or AMA and WSBK rules follow BSB. With a similiar rules package it would be easier for riders in those series to audition for a spot in the world series wouldn't it?

Not happy that Uncle Carmelo has control of the motorcycle world championships, can't be good for the long term.

Apropos all of this - it may be an event that we all look back on in many years time and say, do remember WSBK and then Caramello got it.



It really bears watching. The world rarely changes all at once, the first increments of change will be very interesting.



Right now (and sorry to all the nice Spanish people - .... Spain...no, .... Caramello)

ROCKGOD01 said:

I wouldn't say that so fast. Honda has already in the past made mention of starting a rival series with the other manufacturers. If this becomes something to contrived and not going where the companies want for Tech reasons etc, they may pull all their bikes out of each series and do their own thing. So no matter who promotes it and is a rights holder, they only really hold what?, a name or banner/moniker of a series? WHat would happen if the major companies have no confidence and pull out their teams? So it may seem like it right now that Ezy pulled this one over the makers, but the series no matter what still need their bikes.

Click to expand...

I have little affection for dorna at all, but honda et al have been intransigent in following arcane engineering ends of their own and continuing on the same path did not look like providing a viable future for premier class bike racing. I wish I had more cconfidence that dorna knew what they were doing though, and really think the sport should be run by bike guys/bike racing guys rather than merchant bankers and venture capitalists.



Ultimately neither motogp nor wsbk can exist without the manufacturers though as you say, and there is neither the tradition nor the existing infrastructure for a F1 like structure with independent teams like mclaren in bike racing, and I think setting up such a structure would be equally if not more problematic than honda and the other manufacturers setting up an opposition racing series from scratch.

Andy Roo said:

Respectfully good sir,



At the moment solving the issues of motogp by changing WSBK is not a fix for motogp, just removing a competitor. It would be little different ethically to Microsoft buying apple and limiting their products to phones and Ipods (this a stretch i admit).



At the moment irrespective of intent the WSBK series is running very well, it produces amazing racing and for no other reason fixing something that isn't broken to prop up another series that is, in my opinion, flawed shouldn't sit well with people.



The competition between the two series should be the foundation on which improvements grow. This will not end well I fear.

Click to expand...

Hey mate, good to see you back. A bloody shame to hear of your injuries. You're a brave and inspiring man.



I understand and agree with what you're saying - MotoGP must look at improving itself, rather than removing a competitor. This seems, theoretically, a logic step. Practically, it's difficult to implement.



MotoGP's biggest problems, IMO, are:



1. Cost

2. The exent to which the rider influences the results, compared to the extent to which the bike influences the results - the bike has too much influence.



Neither of these two factors can be effectively changed whilst keeping MotoGP's identity clearly separate from that of WSBK.



Let's consider the first point, Costs. If you try to remove the level of electronic wizardry (one of the biggest contributors to the exorbitant cost of being competitive in MotoGP), then WSBK's electronics may well be more 'prototype' than MotoGP.



The only way to reform MotoGP is to simultaneously reform WSBK. WSBK is also suffering from spiralling costs. This level of spending is not sustainable for WSBK either. Instead of WSBK attempting to compete with MotoGP in terms of spending and technology, they both should take a step back in unison.



Sorry for the rushed post, but I'm at work...

RockGod and MM - we already have a Honda Cup called moto2.



The problem with it is its name. Honda cannot lean back and say "look at those Honda's fly".



They are named after the frame builders as a convention, not the motor.



Why isn't there a feather bed?

Andy Roo said:

RockGod and MM - we already have a Honda Cup called moto2.



The problem with it is its name. Honda cannot lean back and say "look at those Honda's fly".



They are named after the frame builders as a convention, not the motor.

Click to expand...

Sure, but the series is based on honda engines and hence requires co-operation from honda. If honda won't play and they have to rely on second hand engines from honda road bikes, or new engines from hyosung, even dorna might have trouble dressing moto 2 up as an elite bike racing series, and the problem would imo be much greater if they attempted to extend the model to moto 1.

michaelm said:

Sure, but the series is based on honda engines and hence requires co-operation from honda. If honda won't play and they have to rely on second hand engines from honda road bikes, or new engines from hyosung, even dorna might have trouble dressing moto 2 up as an elite bike racing series, and the problem would imo be much greater if they attempted to extend the model to moto 1.

Click to expand...

Didn't think of that. I went straight with the old chestnut being contractual obligation (it was a great album by Monty Python) and just assumed they would always play.



Devils avocado here MM BUT (and this is the rather dim candle of my jenius) Wouldn't Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki or a European (Korean?) manufacturer love to get their hands on moto2 as an engine supplier?

Andy Roo said:

Didn't think of that. I went straight with the old chestnut being contractual obligation (it was a great album by Monty Python) and just assumed they would always play.



Devils avocado here MM BUT (and this is the rather dim candle of my jenius) Wouldn't Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki or a European (Korean?) manufacturer love to get their hands on moto2 as an engine supplier?

Click to expand...

Again sure, and suzuki or kawasaki might even see a chance to even old scores with relative economy, but arguably unless it is yamaha it is second best; dorna and the general public may well not care admittedly, and they may well have a wide audience, it just won't include me.



A putative manufacturers series would require more than honda and yamaha, and won't happen anyway, but there is some chance imo that the whole thing may fall over entirely as the american superbike series re-designed with a similar rationale seems to have done.

michaelm said:

Again sure, but arguably unless it is yamaha it is second best; dorna and the general public may well not care admittedly, and they may well have a wide audience, it just won't include me.

Click to expand...

To be sure - I've already declared my unquenchable love for WSBK. Motogp has been drifting away like a tired wife for a long time now.



I think that all of the 600's have looked competitive in WSS this year. Except the Suzuki which to honest isn't really represented. The Kwaka looks great (that might be the Kenan effect though)



The first Yamaha is in the double figures area in the standing with the Russian guy (Vladimir Lenin?) on it but they (Yamaha) are bouncing along like a chocolate and red drink party at the pre school in the stock class.



I think Honda Yamaha and Kawasaki would be up to it.



And really, as unlikely as it is how good would Triumphs sound?

michaelm said:

I have little affection for dorna at all, but honda et al have been intransigent in following arcane engineering ends of their own and continuing on the same path did not look like providing a viable future for premier class bike racing. I wish I had more cconfidence that dorna knew what they were doing though, and really think the sport should be run by bike guys/bike racing guys rather than merchant bankers and venture capitalists.



Ultimately neither motogp nor wsbk can exist without the manufacturers though as you say and there is neither the tradition nor the existing infrastructure for a F1 like structure with independent teams like mclaren in bike racing, and I think setting up such a structure would be equally if not more problematic than honda and the other manufacturers setting up an opposition racing series from scratch.

Click to expand...

For what its worth here is my take on what Ezzy is up to.He wants rid of the manufacturers from Moto gp so its all CRT and he will call all the shots and not Honda etc (just like f1) and WSB will follow BSB style rule and the manufacturers can play till there harts are content within a set of rules,for all the .... thrown at Ezzy its the march of technology (electronics etc) and the massive costs of development that has turned Moto gp into a money pit that has chased Suzuki and Kawasaki away,the massive costs have to stop and if it was a field of 25 CRTs its better than no Moto gp at all.

Andy Roo said:

To be sure - I've already declared my unquenchable love for WSBK. Motogp has been drifting away like a tired wife for a long time now.



I think that all of the 600's have looked competitive in WSS this year. Except the Suzuki which to honest isn't really represented. The Kwaka looks great (that might be the Kenan effect though)



The first Yamaha is in the double figures area in the standing with the Russian guy (Vladimir Lenin?) on it but they (Yamaha) are bouncing along like a chocolate and red drink party at the pre school in the stock class.



I think Honda Yamaha and Kawasaki would be up to it.



And really, as unlikely as it is how good would Triumphs sound?

Click to expand...

I like wss, and to a lesser extent wsbk. It is moto2, and even more so the putative moto1, that I don't like. Honda and yamaha have admittedly brought it on themsleves, but I don't think dorna are going to come up with anything that interests me. Then again I am a cranky old ......., and don't like modern F1, or V8 supercars, despite following their precursors passionately in my long vanished youth.

thedeal said:

For what its worth here is my take on what Ezzy is up to.He wants rid of the manufacturers from Moto gp so its all CRT and he will call all the shots and not Honda etc (just like f1) and WSB will follow BSB style rule and the manufacturers can play till there harts are content within a set of rules,for all the .... thrown at Ezzy its the march of technology (electronics etc) and the massive costs of development that has turned Moto gp into a money pit that has chased Suzuki and Kawasaki away,the massive costs have to stop and if it was a field of 25 CRTs its better than no Moto gp at all.

Click to expand...

All true. Honda ( and fairly equally yamaha, if only imo) have contributed very significantly to motogp being unsustainable as it now stands. I just don't think dorna are going to produce anything decent, even with the best intentions if they have them, and bike guys like the flamminis now being employees of venture capitalists rather than running things is not a good model, again only imo. Doubtless it is good for the flamminis who likely got bucketloads of money.

thedeal said:

For what its worth here is my take on what Ezzy is up to.He wants rid of the manufacturers from Moto gp so its all CRT and he will call all the shots and not Honda etc (just like f1) and WSB will follow BSB style rule and the manufacturers can play till there harts are content within a set of rules,for all the .... thrown at Ezzy its the march of technology (electronics etc) and the massive costs of development that has turned Moto gp into a money pit that has chased Suzuki and Kawasaki away,the massive costs have to stop and if it was a field of 25 CRTs its better than no Moto gp at all.

Click to expand...

Motogp needs all of those brands and really, the marques of motorcycling to give it back its pantomime and credibility.



Right now, WSBK will suffer to allow motogp to claw back.



Motogp - or the 500cc championship or whatever it was back to its beginning has the history.



To me though, and it may just be my own take on this, it feels like WSBK has the history and motogp is as far back as the memory stretches bland and sameish (thats a real made up word that). Motogp isn't carrying its history and tradition very well at present.

just to add to my above post for the CRT formula to be a success The Aprillia's have to go,they are doctored WSB's and not CRT's ie engine by BMW and frame from Suter.

Andy Roo said:

Motogp needs all of those brands and really, the marques of motorcycling to give it back its pantomime and credibility.



Right now, WSBK will suffer to allow motogp to claw back.



Motogp - or the 500cc championship or whatever it was back to its beginning has the history.



To me though, and it may just be my own take on this, it feels like WSBK has the history and motogp is as far back as the memory stretches bland and sameish (thats a real made up word that). Motogp isn't carrying its history and tradition very well at present.

Click to expand...

To be honest i dont see a problem with CRT and people were swapping engines and frames around to try and get an advantage as privateers in the early days of Grand Prix racing,it was the Factories arriving with bottomless budgets that stopped individual partisipation and small manufacturers from racing,we are now at a turning point and i hope Honda,Yamaha and Ducati go so we have a new era to watch grow.

The bike manufacturers were around long before Ezy and Dorna. I predict they will survive long after as well. This period reminds me of when they all pulled out of WDucatiSBK some years ago. Bad ideas dont last long.

thedeal said:

To be honest i dont see a problem with CRT and people were swapping engines and frames around to try and get an advantage as privateers in the early days of Grand Prix racing,it was the Factories arriving with bottomless budgets that stopped individual partisipation and small manufacturers from racing,we are now at a turning point and i hope Honda,Yamaha and Ducati go so we have a new era to watch grow.

Click to expand...

When did this occur?



Modern gp racing has been honda and yamaha since about 1974, with occasional incursions from suzuki and latterly ducati, the latter not as I recall very popular at the time, despite the current calls for a manufacturer other than honda (winners of one of the last 5 championships, soon to be one of the last 6 and 2 of the last 9) to win . Prior to that (before even my time and hence yours) it was mv augusta for the best part of 2 decades, after a previous occasion when all the other factories dropped out.



If you don't like honda and yamaha you don't like premier class gp bike racing, in which case dorna may well devise something which suits you better.



It is quite obvious that ezy for want of any better idea is trying to emulate F1. There has never been a bike series with the current or even the past F1 model, and I despise bernie ecclestone, F1's architect, despite preferring him to balestre et al back in the day when he was actually a car racing guy, before he became one of the world's most bloated plutocrats.