BOMBSHELL, BUELL IS NO MORE

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Oct 21 2009, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't mourn the loss of an American company simply because it's American. Quality should always triumph over nationality in my opinion. In my garage there are three vehicles. A Suzuki, a Ducati and an Audi. I have no intention of ever owning an American vehicle of any kind at this point . GM is failing because they manufacture trash. Companies that cannot compete should fail. That's more American in my opinion than sustaining a company that is unable to compete freely simply because of the flag it flies. Ducati for a great many years was considered the manufacturer of boutique motorcycles that were extremely difficult to keep on the road. That caused the company some difficulties and I think they have adjusted accordingly. My Ducati has 19K miles on it. I bought it new in 07. I've replaced the clutch and a few other "normal wear" bits but nothing else. I purchased my Audi new on 06. It has 55K miles and has never been in the shop for anything other than scheduled service. GM cannot make that claim. American companies will prosper only when they can compete on equal ground with their rivals. I will be happy to support them when they do. If Buell was able to competently compete they would be thriving. They are not.

If you build it, they will come...............quality, value and style should not be mutually exclusive.
Well bro, I agree if a company fails because of its own poor business practices then it should be left to its own devices. (Nobody helps us when we spend or invest unwisely, right). But are the auto companies failing ‘solely’ because of poor business practices (bare with me before you answer)? That's what makes the bank bailouts so infuriating because they clearly screwed up yet they have got most of the help. Keep in mind though, the auto companies got waaaay less, doesn’t make it different but it should put the brunt of our ire in perspective in regards to this “un American” policy.

So yeah I agree with the idea of letting businesses fail if they don't make a good product or practices, etc. But I think you have over simplified the auto company’s problem. It’s not just a matter of an inferior product (and whether you are aware or not or accept it or not, they have increased their quality tremendously to near and equal of the foreign companies, but the reputation of poor manufacturing still lingers from the 70-mid 90s). The bigger problem is the fact that they cannot compete with foreign companies because of our import-export policy (that is our government making it difficult for American business to thrive against the Asian/European importers); as well as; consider the pricing/cost of American products that must absorb health and labor cost not suffered by Asian companies (mainly health care cost against European competitors.)

So brotha, it’s not just a matter of product “quality” that has the American companies on the ropes. The product quality is near and as good on some product lines today. Increased technology in manufacturing has taken care of most of this past quality discrepancy. European and Asia countries make it extremely difficult and costly to import American product where we let them bring theirs at peanuts. Also consider the living standards of the workers for either companies. Some people may think that American workers get paid too much but then again ask yourself, where would you rather work? We tout that we are the “richest” and most prosperous country, and that wealth has been seeded across the spectrum of classes, that makes us strong as an economy ad a nation. America auto companies have compensated their works for a decent living standard compared with ones that treats its workers like a labor camp (Asian company workers--where they live, sleep, eat, marry, and everything revolves around the factory)…where would you rather work? So you can see American companies have tremendous challenges to compete with lob sided import/export policy, health care cost not suffered by foreign companies, and a labor force paid with such disparity resulting in detriment.

The simplification of the quality of product also doesn’t paint the entire picture. Think of Harley-Davidson motorcycles—the poster child of unreliability and poor “quality”. The metric cruiser (Jap version of a HD), though looking like a HD is 10x the quality, yet why is there 10x the following and price for an actual HD? Certainly its not because HD is a better “quality” product, right? So its not ‘just’ a matter of “quality”. Same goes for Buell. You’ve said you don’t feel bad for their failure because they didn’t produce a quality product, but I think it’s not just about that. Buell, though it had its following, was simply not enough to sustain their business. I wouldn’t go blaming it solely on a poor product, because frankly, its wasn’t that bad. Yes, they were behind the Jap sport bikes in many aspects, but then again, that was not solely their aim.

So I agree with your premise buddy, that bad business practices should run its natural course, but I’m also aware that its not just about bad business practices that have made America companies have the ability to compete straight up with their competitors. Nationalistic pride is relevant in so much that our damaging government policies have affected some of out industries negatively resulting in injury to the American worker. This is what is partly regretful in Buell’s case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Oct 22 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Piss poor union contracts with unsustainable benefits and next to nothing work quota's is what killed the American Auto Industry. The unions bled them to death,pure and simple. These are blue collar jobs that should have been paying 18-25 bucks an hours, not 30-40. It was a good gig while it lasted,but was doomed to fail for decades.
Wasn't always like that. Pendulum swung too far, but for years they were under paid and had dangerous and unhealthy work conditions while the companies enjoyed over 50% of entire world market. The workers are not to blame in this equation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well bro, I agree if a company fails because of its own poor business practices then it should be left to its own devices. (Nobody helps us when we spend or invest unwisely, right). But are the auto companies failing ‘solely’ because of poor business practices (bare with me before you answer)? That's what makes the bank bailouts so infuriating because they clearly screwed up yet they have got most of the help. Keep in mind though, the auto companies got waaaay less, doesn’t make it different but it should put the brunt of our ire in perspective in regards to this “un American” policy.

So yeah I agree with the idea of letting businesses fail if they don't make a good product or practices, etc. But I think you have over simplified the auto company’s problem. It’s not just a matter of an inferior product (and whether you are aware or not or accept it or not, they have increased their quality tremendously to near and equal of the foreign companies, but the reputation of poor manufacturing still lingers from the 70-mid 90s). The bigger problem is the fact that they cannot compete with foreign companies because of our import-export policy (that is our government making it difficult for American business to thrive against the Asian/European importers); as well as; consider the pricing/cost of American products that must absorb health and labor cost not suffered by Asian companies (mainly health care cost against European competitors.)

So brotha, it’s not just a matter of product “quality” that has the American companies on the ropes. The product quality is near and as good on some product lines today. Increased technology in manufacturing has taken care of most of this past quality discrepancy. European and Asia countries make it extremely difficult and costly to import American product where we let them bring theirs at peanuts. Also consider the living standards of the workers for either companies. Some people may think that American workers get paid too much but then again ask yourself, where would you rather work? We tout that we are the “richest” and most prosperous country, and that wealth has been seeded across the spectrum of classes, that makes us strong as an economy ad a nation. America auto companies have compensated their works for a decent living standard compared with ones that treats its workers like a labor camp (Asian company workers--where they live, sleep, eat, marry, and everything revolves around the factory)…where would you rather work? So you can see American companies have tremendous challenges to compete with lob sided import/export policy, health care cost not suffered by foreign companies, and a labor force paid with such disparity resulting in detriment.

The simplification of the quality of product also doesn’t paint the entire picture. Think of Harley-Davidson motorcycles—the poster child of unreliability and poor “quality”. The metric cruiser (Jap version of a HD), though looking like a HD is 10x the quality, yet why is there 10x the following and price for an actual HD? Certainly its not because HD is a better “quality” product, right? So its not ‘just’ a matter of “quality”. Same goes for Buell. You’ve said you don’t feel bad for their failure because they didn’t produce a quality product, but I think it’s not just about that. Buell, though it had its following, was simply not enough to sustain their business. I wouldn’t go blaming it solely on a poor product, because frankly, its wasn’t that bad. Yes, they were behind the Jap sport bikes in many aspects, but then again, that was not solely their aim.

So I agree with your premise buddy, that bad business practices should run its natural course, but I’m also aware that its not just about bad business practices that have made America companies have the ability to compete straight up with their competitors. Nationalistic pride is relevant in so much that our damaging government policies have affected some of out industries negatively resulting in injury to the American worker. This is what is partly regretful in Buell’s case.

We don't have poor import/export rules. Instead of putting tariffs on Japanese and European imports we forced them to build factories in the United States of America in order to create jobs. The profits from the Japanese cars sold in the US stay largely in the US b/c American investors purchase massive amounts of Japanese car stock b/c we keep their companies in business. The plan requiring the Japanese to open factories in the US was signed under HW Bush. That's why the Japanese plants are in the United States while many European and American plants are/were in Mexico and Canada as well.

The problem with import/export was related to the strength of our currency. Imports were cheap during the mid-late 90s and exports were expensive for other nations. Now imports are expensive and exports are cheap. Devaluing your currency works as long as you have access to the natural resources you need. The most precious resource to our economy is purposely underdeveloped for political reasons and the 1-2 trillion dollars we send around the globe every year has been an enormous drain on our economy. Thanks, Al .... and the left-wing green energy racketeers. You are the gift that keeps on giving.

Jumkie, as far as I can tell, the average American has access to a much higher standard of living and a much higher amount of monetary wealth than the rest of the developed world, but with a much lower standard of compulsory education. The average American hands his paycheck back to the wealthy people who employ him faster than he actually earns his paycheck (until the recession).

In case you haven't noticed, the stupidity of the common man is partly responsible for the current housing collapse in the United States. The globe is not happy that uneducated Americans are in control of such massive amounts of wealth and power. The world (particularly Europe) wants us to be controlled. They want our government to get us to trade our discretionary income and our wealth for a series of entitlements. The government will then be able to ensure that only wise decisions are made with the wealth of the United States. Your work will only generate responsible levels of material wealth that is decided by the government.

I find this plan dubious at best since 50% of all home mortgage loans were secured by the US government under the CRA plan. Since when did 50% of our nation become impoverished and in need of government subsidy? I think its clear that the biggest dunderheads in the nation work in Washington DC. The government doesn't want to "spread the wealth around". It wants to put people on entitlements so the common man is no longer free to make mistakes. The old dogs in government can't learn new tricks so they are perfectly happy to restrict freedom in the twilight of their lives in order to achieve societal stability.

I'm sure you realize that the only way out of this mess is to revamp compulsory education? Healthcare, handouts, and taxes will do nothing for us. Our current shortcomings are entirely between the ears.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 22 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In case you haven't noticed, the stupidity of the common man is partly responsible for the current housing collapse in the United States.

Go see a movie called 'Maxed out'. Then tell me where the brunt of the blame should be placed.

The common man is no match for a corporation with the backing of elected officials hell bent on fleecing the common man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Go see a movie called 'Maxed out'. Then tell me where the brunt of the blame should be placed.

The common man is no match for a corporation with the backing of elected officials hell bent on fleecing the common man.

I've seen it. It's 90 minutes of people who don't know anything about money. No one ever taught them not to use credit, and they sign up over and over and over again. I've seen these clowns in real life, one of them was a really good friend. In college he had to drop out in order to pay his credit cards. His dad got so pissed that he paid his cards off and sent him to school. He got more credit cards and racked up an enormous amount of debt, he dropped out of college and he has no degree. He's one of my best friends but he deserves it. Everytime we hang out with him we're glancing at his wallet looking for plastic when he pays for anything.

I only feel bad for the guy in the reserves who lost his job and had crappy military pay during his deployment.

The woman who got mixed up with her deceased daughter was the victim of government record keeping. I've worked in the student loan industry. Government loan discharge b/c of death is the responsibility of the clowns at NSLDS. They screw things up constantly.

If you think this is bad, go to work in the income tax industry. You'll soon realize that the government can't regulate the credit card industries b/c they do 5x worse to the people whose lives they are supposed to be improving. You wanna see carnage? Find out what happens when people can't pay their taxes. They charge you penalties and interest for 6 months before they bother to send you a notice. Half the time, people can't even figure out how to correct their tax form without coming to see me. How am I supposed to charge someone who already can't pay the government? I do charity everyday to keep these people afloat.

I had a woman last year who made $50,000 for leasing her property to an energy company. She paid of debt with the money. I'm sure you see where this is going. At the end of the year, I told her she owed $12,000. She cried in my office for a half hour while I explained to her what needed to be done. Fun times. Now she pays penalty and interest to the federal government.

Private lending is kids play. The government charges you money for living and taking care of yourself, yet people want the government to fix private lending. Sure. That's like asking Hitler to police war crimes. The only fix to consumer credit is not to use it. You have to go to the source of the problem.

By the way I just wanted to say that I don't have healthcare b/c I'm self employed and I don't make a lot of money. The government forces me to pay for healthcare for someone else. Obama has promised to force me to buy cheaper healthcare for myself in addition to paying for someone else. What a great man. So when can I expect to see a drop in FICA now that healthcare costs are going to drop?

I'm already an indentured servant and I don't have any credit cards. Do you think I give a damn about Capital One or Citibank?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Oct 23 2009, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie...
The banks have not been complicit have they...

False representation
Misleading fine print
Confusing terms
Predatory lending
Fraudulent banking

You have a tendency on focusing the overwhelming brunt of your ire on the least of these aspects to blame, instead of where the main problem lies. You're a great advocate for banks and corporate misdeeds buddy.

Remind me who started the bank bailouts? Oh yeah, the people you put in office and swear by. Talk about accountability. Preach on brotha, your vote speaks for itself.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 22 2009, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've seen it. It's 90 minutes of people who don't know anything about money. No one ever taught them not to use credit, and they sign up over and over and over again. I've seen these clowns in real life, one of them was a really good friend. In college he had to drop out in order to pay his credit cards. His dad got so pissed that he paid his cards off and sent him to school. He got more credit cards and racked up an enormous amount of debt, he dropped out of college and he has no degree. He's one of my best friends but he deserves it. Everytime we hang out with him we're glancing at his wallet looking for plastic when he pays for anything.

I only feel bad for the guy in the reserves who lost his job and had crappy military pay during his deployment.

The woman who got mixed up with her deceased daughter was the victim of government record keeping. I've worked in the student loan industry. Government loan discharge b/c of death is the responsibility of the clowns at NSLDS. They screw things up constantly.

If you think this is bad, go to work in the income tax industry. You'll soon realize that the government can't regulate the credit card industries b/c they do 5x worse to the people whose lives they are supposed to be improving. You wanna see carnage? Find out what happens when people can't pay their taxes. They charge you penalties and interest for 6 months before they bother to send you a notice. Half the time, people can't even figure out how to correct their tax form without coming to see me. How am I supposed to charge someone who already can't pay the government? I do charity everyday to keep these people afloat.

I had a woman last year who made $50,000 for leasing her property to an energy company. She paid of debt with the money. I'm sure you see where this is going. At the end of the year, I told her she owed $12,000. She cried in my office for a half hour while I explained to her what needed to be done. Fun times. Now she pays penalty and interest to the federal government.

Private lending is kids play. The government charges you money for living and taking care of yourself, yet people want the government to fix private lending. Sure. That's like asking Hitler to police war crimes. The only fix to consumer credit is not to use it. You have to go to the source of the problem.

By the way I just wanted to say that I don't have healthcare b/c I'm self employed and I don't make a lot of money. The government forces me to pay for healthcare for someone else. Obama has promised to force me to buy cheaper healthcare for myself in addition to paying for someone else. What a great man. So when can I expect to see a drop in FICA now that healthcare costs are going to drop?

I'm already an indentured servant and I don't have any credit cards. Do you think I give a damn about Capital One or Citibank?

Are you a member of NFIB (click here)? If not it would be great to have you join

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Oct 23 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The banks were forced by LAW to be complicit.
The banks write the ....... laws genius. You think lobbyist are influencing/writing policy in our behalf?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 23 2009, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The banks write the ....... laws genius. You think lobbyist are influencing/writing policy in our behalf?

The banks don't write laws that require them to make 50% of their loans under the CRA program. They want to originate as many loans as possible. They don't want to offset each good loan they originate with a toxic asset. The credit derivatives people on Wall Street were the people lobbying to raise the CRA standards so they bundle more government secured assets with the subprime loans that were being originated like hotcakes. The government gave them what they wanted as long as the bond stooges continued to rate CRA loans as AAA regardless of their actual quality. The government got more power, the banks made more money, and the credit derivatives people made more money.

Everything you say about fraud, misrepresentation, and legalese mumbo-jumbo on credit forms is absolutely legitimate. No market economy can function with misinformation and fraudulent coercion. What is the payments on $0 at a 29% interest rate the consumer doesn't know about?

Furthermore, why are you turning to the government to fix the problem. Weren't they supposed to make sure that the CRA was only extended to poor people in need? The only regulatory body there has ever been is the mind of a responsible individual and good consumer protection attorneys. The regulators are completely useless.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Oct 23 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you a member of NFIB (click here)? If not it would be great to have you join

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. I'm actually becoming very disillusioned with my industry b/c people can't figure out how to pay their taxes, and by the time the realize they need help, they have no money. The economic crisis has made it ten times worse.

Never mind the banks, I need somebody to buy my toxic receivables.

If the healthcare mandate passes, I'll probably use my time doing something else.

Well there you go, Lex & Pov concur, the banks are the victims.

These guys represent half the voting electorate; anybody doubt why we are ......!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 23 2009, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well there you go, Lex & Pov concur, the banks are the victims.

These guys represent half the voting electorate; anybody doubt why we are ......!

Yeah, get rid of the banks so the representatives can sell out to another mega-industry. Your solution sucks worse than the problem. We'd have no more private banks, and the government would still be corrupt and omnipotent.

Look, let me explain how this whole thing worked so you can see what happened.

People wanted to buy homes and lots of them needed loans. They can't afford them b/c interest rates are too high. Boo hoo. Greedy mortgage companies LOVE high interest notes, so the government decided to up the CRA requirement. The rising CRA requirements means the banks MUST make more loans so they start qualifying people who aren't poor for subprime CRA loans. The government looks the other way b/c it is the outcome they were hoping for.

Many people still can't afford high interest rates. Boo hoo. So the government slides the CRA percentage up again. Banks qualify more people under the CRA (who aren't poor) and more and more people continue to demand subprime loans. They can't get them because the bank doesn't like low interest rates. So the government slides the CRA percentage up again. The bank qualifies more people under the CRA subprime loan program. The CRA percentage goes up again, and the banks qualify more middle class people under the loan program for poor people.

At some point during the boom the banks realize that demand for subprime loans is so great and the CRA lending requirements are so high, that they would be better off dropping interest rates to subprime CRA levels and making a killing on origination fees and refinancing fees. Because the CRA requirements are so obnoxiously high, they'll never have to hold the notes to maturity b/c they can bundle the risky subprime loans with government secured CRA assets (which have an artificial AAA rating) and then peddle them all over the world. The loan bundles were high return and investors loved them because they thought the CRA guarantee made them low risk as well. In about 2006 people started to realize the numbers weren't adding up and the industry slammed on the brakes just in time for all of their borrowers to be wiped out by a completely unnecessary spike in global oil prices.

Who are the victims? The people who aren't old enough to be homeowners yet or people who just bought their first home. The reckless expansion of subprime lending by the Federal government has driven prices to completely unnecessary levels and homeownership will be a dream for most of them by the time the Federal Government stimulates the housing market back to bubble price levels.

We need Congressional term limits now more than ever.

Jumkie, you are supposed to control the Federal Government with your vote, not let it run rough shod over parts of the economy you don't like. You certainly aren't supposed to let them convince you that private industry is the enemy when the government was accidentally driving the madness themselves.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRILL @ Oct 17 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Harley have weathered the storm before if I recall correctly,didn`t they re-emerge from the AMF debacle to greater heights?USA wouldn`t be USA without a Harley would it?

Good point. If there'd been no Harley, all the fat-... biker-gang miscreants
and the bloated Angels weekend wannabees would be riding Triumphs and
BSAs and there would be nothing left for the pseudo-hipster .........s to ride on their
way to the local Starbucks.

BTW - the closing down of Buell wasn't exactly out of the blue. RRW when they went to
press two month ago said that Harley Davidson world wide sales had slumped 12% in the
first quarter and in response, they had already announced to the stockholders that
they would be shutting down production at their East Troy facility during Nov. and Dec,
while "temporarily" laying off 52 employees. The death of Buell was a forgone conclusion
and they were just trying to keep it quiet until after they "won" the championship and
had themselves a flurry of sales - before closing the coffin.