Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha
Help Support MotoGP Forum:
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
Explain why riders like Spies and Simoncelli could be fast in practice and qualy but then all of a sudden slow down in the race? Simple, learning evolving electronics that adjust for fuel consumption and prevent the rider utilizing their prefered style. Read Spalding and look at clever Yamaha electronics you might learn something.
No doubt electronics and being able to ride in concert with them have a lot to do with it, but I think riding styles which are hard on tyres do also. I suspect ben's confidence also has something to do with it, in particular his early season crashes and his team sending him out on a bike which they purported to have fixed but hadn't.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
Michael you are of course correct. Bike set up and riding style in concert with electronics, confidence, wheather conditions, the whole lot are important. Maybe even tires. I spent about the whole of 2011 trying to argue this with the hawk, and now I am surprised to find his 2011 clever electronics do everything go read up on Spalding argument that he used multiple times has been revised. I havent told him to go F off for bringing the riding style of his new pet Lorenzo into a bike thread debate, I'm not that nasty. Just wanted to see his reaction, I find it mildly amusing he responds with exactly what I said about Simmo not beating Stoner last year, namely its more than just electronics.
BTW Lorenzo brakes early and employs a smooth style in conjuction with the relatively soft carcuss updated 2012 spec front tire to absolute maximum advantage. I dont think anybody can beat him in this style. Spies might fall more in the Hayden category of aggressive late braking early on the gas tire abusing style. Bit of a shame riders of this exciting style dont have a tire to suit. There is that other rider but I cant mention him atm. I like you wish there were two tire options available.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
When tire options were available, they were made available in special ways for special people. Today, identical options are given to all the riders. That is a much more equitable situation! U guys asking for Casey to have special dispensation for older options may not remember what it was like before we had a spec tire. If we had it the old way, u'd be upset about how some special riders get the better tires. Today, Lorenzo & Stoner have identical options. Thank God for it.
Its something i feared would never happen under a "spec tire rule", as a cynic, i thought eventually everybody would be forced to use VRs spec tires. Yeah, identical for everybody but best suited for one very special man. Today, its a public vote. (Still laughing at the insinuation that they all voted unanimously to screw with Casey, ah the neo-bopper mentality). Who knows, maybe a VR spec tire did happen 08+. But then he moved to Ducati. Be happy Stoner gets to use the tires available to everybody else. Be happy the man is still on the best bike with the brand most willing and able to invest the most resources to improve the bike. If Yamaha is a better package as of race 4 and 5 (unless u guys are prepared to argue the M1 was better races 1-3) its because they have been clever with the resources available to them (nearly on level with HRC) coupled perhaps more importantly, with a rider with a tad less raw talent while supremely focused.
On a side note, Casey has been blaming tires since 2006. I was inclined to hear him out in 06 & 08. But today, regardless if i believe he is experiencing difficulty with the tire (the old new one and the new new one) it still is the 'same' options available to his rivals. Let me repeat that, as its worth repeating; he has the identical options as his rival. For that i am thankful if u consider what GP was like under SNS and a diversity of tire qualities across those contracted to a brand. Guess who got the option made for wining races. U think Carmelo is doing particular bidding now? ..... Welcome to GP after 2007, should have been here prior to Caseys first title.
I reject this idea that HRC is inferior to Factory Yamaha, i think ive made a decent attempt to explain and rebut excellent points to the contrary. If i were to concede, the most we could move the gol post would be to the center. Lets do that then for the sake of argument, now what?
The factory team with the only real claim that the current tire is detrimental would be Ducati. They can on occasion have a lap time within a few tents of the leaders but really suffer from tire degradation. I read in Eurosport that Casey has now said to the affect keeping the points close is nearly impossible under the current tire. The title, he concedes, is out of reach. That is disappointing with 5 races down on the season. I really honestly wish he wouldnt retire, because if this year he estimates will be a route, we have no chance next year with Pedro (again perhaps why Carmelo is desperate to get VR on a competitive bike).
We have lots of people who fail to see the reality in GP and the unintended consequences, the good ones, of having a spec tire. The same peeps who in the past took wins and titles at face value too. Pigeon for example has recently said Nicky has chased money rather than a good bike by signing with Ducati. What an ..... statement to add to the many others ignorant .... people say. When NH signed, Ducati was considered a "great bike" capable of top odds against VR/JLo's Yamaha. U'd be hard pressed to find many voices declaring the Duc was ...., u'd have no problem finding mine in that minority. Today u find a chorus saying Ducati is ...., in that choir u'd find people like Pigeon. What changed? Chasing the money to forgo a competitive bike? What satellite seats were available? After a bad luck maiden season when it looked like everybody on the grid tried to kill him in turn one, afterward NH was regularly nipping at the podium with a string of dry weather 4ths. Maybe the bike was improving? It was only when VR became a Duc rider that former VR fans like Pigeon realized, hey, that Duc is ..... Oh, what a revelation MFs. I been saying the Duc was .... including 2007. I wonder if Pigeon thinks VR is .... now? Some people just never learn from the lessons of 2011/2012.
So while u guys are crying for the demise of the spec tire, or Casey getting old tire options, just think for a moment the unintended consequences that can be wrought with such a self vested request. My advise for Mr. Stoner, the same Casey had for Nicky when asked to comment on the man's "poor performance" as Rossi's teammate on Ducati: 'Stop making excuses and get on with it!' Casey Stoner circa 2011.
Its something i feared would never happen under a "spec tire rule", as a cynic, i thought eventually everybody would be forced to use VRs spec tires. Yeah, identical for everybody but best suited for one very special man. Today, its a public vote. (Still laughing at the insinuation that they all voted unanimously to screw with Casey, ah the neo-bopper mentality). Who knows, maybe a VR spec tire did happen 08+. But then he moved to Ducati. Be happy Stoner gets to use the tires available to everybody else. Be happy the man is still on the best bike with the brand most willing and able to invest the most resources to improve the bike. If Yamaha is a better package as of race 4 and 5 (unless u guys are prepared to argue the M1 was better races 1-3) its because they have been clever with the resources available to them (nearly on level with HRC) coupled perhaps more importantly, with a rider with a tad less raw talent while supremely focused.
On a side note, Casey has been blaming tires since 2006. I was inclined to hear him out in 06 & 08. But today, regardless if i believe he is experiencing difficulty with the tire (the old new one and the new new one) it still is the 'same' options available to his rivals. Let me repeat that, as its worth repeating; he has the identical options as his rival. For that i am thankful if u consider what GP was like under SNS and a diversity of tire qualities across those contracted to a brand. Guess who got the option made for wining races. U think Carmelo is doing particular bidding now? ..... Welcome to GP after 2007, should have been here prior to Caseys first title.
I reject this idea that HRC is inferior to Factory Yamaha, i think ive made a decent attempt to explain and rebut excellent points to the contrary. If i were to concede, the most we could move the gol post would be to the center. Lets do that then for the sake of argument, now what?
The factory team with the only real claim that the current tire is detrimental would be Ducati. They can on occasion have a lap time within a few tents of the leaders but really suffer from tire degradation. I read in Eurosport that Casey has now said to the affect keeping the points close is nearly impossible under the current tire. The title, he concedes, is out of reach. That is disappointing with 5 races down on the season. I really honestly wish he wouldnt retire, because if this year he estimates will be a route, we have no chance next year with Pedro (again perhaps why Carmelo is desperate to get VR on a competitive bike).
We have lots of people who fail to see the reality in GP and the unintended consequences, the good ones, of having a spec tire. The same peeps who in the past took wins and titles at face value too. Pigeon for example has recently said Nicky has chased money rather than a good bike by signing with Ducati. What an ..... statement to add to the many others ignorant .... people say. When NH signed, Ducati was considered a "great bike" capable of top odds against VR/JLo's Yamaha. U'd be hard pressed to find many voices declaring the Duc was ...., u'd have no problem finding mine in that minority. Today u find a chorus saying Ducati is ...., in that choir u'd find people like Pigeon. What changed? Chasing the money to forgo a competitive bike? What satellite seats were available? After a bad luck maiden season when it looked like everybody on the grid tried to kill him in turn one, afterward NH was regularly nipping at the podium with a string of dry weather 4ths. Maybe the bike was improving? It was only when VR became a Duc rider that former VR fans like Pigeon realized, hey, that Duc is ..... Oh, what a revelation MFs. I been saying the Duc was .... including 2007. I wonder if Pigeon thinks VR is .... now? Some people just never learn from the lessons of 2011/2012.
So while u guys are crying for the demise of the spec tire, or Casey getting old tire options, just think for a moment the unintended consequences that can be wrought with such a self vested request. My advise for Mr. Stoner, the same Casey had for Nicky when asked to comment on the man's "poor performance" as Rossi's teammate on Ducati: 'Stop making excuses and get on with it!' Casey Stoner circa 2011.
As I have said before , we are talking at cross purposes on this and also have had a different philosophy on the control tyre from the start. I have never agreed with it, before it started, when it hindered stoner as it may have done in his latter days at ducati, or when it helped him as it likely did last year.
Stoner was unbeatable on the ducati and bridgestone tyre which suited him in 2007, and was again with a bike and tyre favourable to him last year. Jorge is definitely the best this year, and may be the better all round rider anyway, and I don't think stoner would be beating him whatever tyre he had, whether the old stiff carcass tyre available for the first 5 rounds of this year or the alternate version of this year's new tyre.
Just because a control tyre almost by definition cannot be unfair as I have always conceded doesn't mean it can't suit one rider better than another, or that it is not possible that one rider can make them last while another cannot, due to riding the tyre better of course. You seem to be arguing that because the control tyre is fair stoner's more aggressive riding style can't be wearing his tyres out, which I don't see as a logical corollary, particularly since stoner and honda think he is doing so, pedrosa says he is doing so, and if you want someone independent kevin schwantz has also said it looks like they are doing so. As I have said in relation to perceived advantages for stoner in the past, all credit to jorge if he is better on that tyre, for stoner and his fans including me that's just the way it is, tough.
I do think the quality of any given control tyre can be reasonably criticised as last year's tyre was for its cold performance (it was also the same tyre for everyone), and as the lack of an intermediate tyre continues to be criticised.
The answer for stoner as you say is to just get on with it, adjust and not complain which he had been doing, and I am disappointed he has come out with his statement prior to the assen race. I think you are being tough on him re hayden at ducati, he has mostly praised nicky and suggested that rossi should get on with it as nicky has done.
I didn't particularly object to the sns tyres, I objected to rossi fans complaining about stoner's apparent bridgestone tyre advantage in 2007 in view of rossi having had the sns tyres in the past. As babelfish was wont to argue the sns michelin was effectively almost a control tyre as all the leading contenders had them, although I would concede the element of catch 22 in that to be a contender you had to have them as I have argued myself. I can see where someone like stoner may never have come to prominence if he had stayed on non-sns michelins for his career, which may have been brief in that circumstance.
Where we do disagree is philosophically. The control tyre may be fairer in principle and to an extent in practice, but when the sport is dying from ruinous over expense I can't see that having a control tyre with very limited options in terms of suiting bikes requiring manufacturers to re-engineer their bikes is helpful, particularly if changed at short notice. Even if you think honda deserve anything they get due to past transgressions, imo and that of others which I have not seen you rebut the control tyre has seriously disadvantaged kawasaki, suzuki and ducati. The current control tyre would also seem to mandate a very narrow range in terms of riding style, and from my obviously biased perspective it is sad if stoner has to change his spectacular style even if he can
We also disagree philosophically on bike equalisation. I don't mind salary caps and drafts in other sports, or mechanisms to limit the expense in motogp or limit the technology to some extent so that more can compete. I do object to changing the rules after the fact, which is essentially what stoner and honda have complained about, and while as I have said he would have done better not to complain (as perhaps may also been the case with similar issues in the past
I still don't see having developed 2 tyres why bridgestone couldn't make both tyres available to all, although I can see your argument that this might lead to influence being brought to bear to develop tyres more suited to one manufacturer than another in the future, although this has perhaps already occurred anyway (the tyre being more suitable, not necessarily the influence). I also still don't understand why the old tyres were OK for the first 5 races but not after, not that I think it likely this would have availed stoner much as I have said.
Jumkie, I haven't read much of this thread, so I don't know what has been discussed.
You have stated previously that the Ducati was the 3rd or 4th best bike in 2007-10, yet Stoner was able to put it on pole & win a number of races. If the Honda is the best bike on the grid currently, then Stoner should be getting poles & winning races comfortably. As this is not happening, it seems that your opinion must be that Stoner is not trying or that he hasn't got the talent to ride a well sorted bike. Well I think last year has shown that he is capable of riding a well sorted bike, so he must just not be trying.
In quali at Assen, Lorenzo looked smooth, fast & comfortable. He is the only one who is consistently exploiting the Yamahas strong points. The Honda by comparison, looked to be fighting the riders all the way. Although Honda has 3 of the top 4 spots, Stoner, Pedro & Bradl all had to fight to get it there.
You have stated previously that the Ducati was the 3rd or 4th best bike in 2007-10, yet Stoner was able to put it on pole & win a number of races. If the Honda is the best bike on the grid currently, then Stoner should be getting poles & winning races comfortably. As this is not happening, it seems that your opinion must be that Stoner is not trying or that he hasn't got the talent to ride a well sorted bike. Well I think last year has shown that he is capable of riding a well sorted bike, so he must just not be trying.
In quali at Assen, Lorenzo looked smooth, fast & comfortable. He is the only one who is consistently exploiting the Yamahas strong points. The Honda by comparison, looked to be fighting the riders all the way. Although Honda has 3 of the top 4 spots, Stoner, Pedro & Bradl all had to fight to get it there.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
You're gonna need to read more than this thread then. Start with reviewing the entire 2007 season. Stoner was an anomaly, an outlier, on the GP7. If that bike was the great bike people say it was, other riders on the bike would have been able to come close to Stoner's result. That is decidedly not the case for RCV2012. The podium most often has been occupied by his HRC teammate with satellite Hondas within the top five. The Honda is just fine. Even the "lesser" riders find themselves on poles, and near the podium. At very least read this thread then ask me your other questions. But I still would suggest (based on your logic above) to review all the forum starting in April 2007 to present. Buy yourself a vid pass on motogp.com and review all the races in 2007.
Lorenzo always looks smooth and comfortable, but I disagree he appears fast. He is fast, but it appears effortless. Now turn you attention to the other M1s. Please tell me you can detect a decidedly different riding style and appearance among all the M1 riders vs the RCV riders. When has Casey Stoner been considered a "smooth" rider?
Only the RCV riders had to "fight" to get there? I guess they were giving out front rows starts to M1s but Spies and Cal didn't get the memo? As you said, HRC riders are 1-2 on the front row, but you want to convince me of what? Also, regarding the front row, I'm gonna assume you actually 'watched' qual, unlike Povol who just looks at the final time sheets and makes analysis as to who was "trying hard" or as you say "fighting" for positions. It was raining with about 10 mins to go, and it looked like the session was over. With about 5 mins to go, it cleared up and the riders filled out onto the track. There was an element of timing, wouldn't you say? Not sure if they published the evolving conditions on the time sheets for Povol's benefit, nonetheless, riders had about one maybe two opportunities to put in a fast lap with the threat of rain and time running out looming. Most if not all the riders were on the track. Both Spies and Crutchlow were upset that they were balked by riders (Espargus & Barbie). Maybe that had something to do with it, or maybe the RCV is just that good of a bike that both riders can come 1-2. What ever the reason is, there is no doubt that the RCV is a great bike and 2nd to none. Now if it was only Stoner achieving these kinds of positions, then I'd say you have a point. But again, 1-2 with a satellite rookie in 4th to boot, well, you're logic doesn't quite hold up.
I didn't say Lorenzo "appears" fast, I said he is smooth, fast & comfortable & he is the only one using the Yamaha to it's full potential. You can't tell me Spies is. Cal & Dovi generally qualify ahead of the sat Hondas. With Cals problems & Bradl finding some form the last couple of races, things have evened up a bit the last couple of races.
The Yamaha & Honda have very little between them, but with the tyres working better on the Yamaha, it is the better race bike. I'll give you one thing though, the Honda is a better quali bike with it's power & one lap speed before it eats the tyre.
The Yamaha & Honda have very little between them, but with the tyres working better on the Yamaha, it is the better race bike. I'll give you one thing though, the Honda is a better quali bike with it's power & one lap speed before it eats the tyre.
I actually disagree with this. That 2007 ducati on those tyres was invincible over the season if you could ride it. Being able to ride it was the caveat, and the effort of doing so consistently may have been too much of a strain even for the rider who could ride it. I don't think rossi could have ridden the yamaha much if at all better, although someone may have been able to ride the honda better than pedrosa.
I don't, of course, believe that anyone else in the field including valentino could have ridden the 2007 ducati as stoner did either.
No-one, neither fans nor detractors, has suggested that stoner/honda has/have lost his/their single lap pace. It is consistent pace for the length of a race that would appear to have been missing in some recent races. If he regains this and wins the race, regardless of whether it be due to him learning to adjust his riding style, the enormous resources of honda improving the chassis, him regaining his mental focus/mental strength, or a combination thereof I will be among those most delighted, but the race rather than qualifying will be the test.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 11,378
- Location
- Pomona NY
You know how rarely I challenge you - but can you name names? Michael and I have bemoaned the mid-season deletion of the tires around which Honda designed the chassis - but I have not heard anyone imply anything in the way of a conspiracy from Bridgestone.
I did say that if I was one of the other riders given honda and stoner's 2011 performance I would look at stoner's choice and go the other way if the tyres were comparable, and assumed that there would have been general discussion of the tyre options. I don't know how the vote was taken, whether there was a secret ballot etc , but wasn't alleging any conspiracy by bridgestone or the riders. As far as I know stoner made no complaint about the majority going against his choice, other than saying they were wrong.
I won't plead innocence of any suspicion of machinations by dorna (why was the vote needed, who decided there would be one, why not produce both tyres?).
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Spot on.
In 2007 and 2008 the Ducati was a very difficult bike to ride, but had the potential of being the fastest bike on the grid.
Now it is still difficult to ride, but its best potential is maybe top 6. Put Casey back on it, maybe it will do some top 4. Others have improved much more than them, Ducati even lost their traditional engine power and top speed supremacy.
For those who think Stoner is God and can ride around a '.....' bike, and win, have a look at him on the top Honda: Stoner in the last three races before Assen could not ride around chattering and win... Lorenzo won instead. So maybe even Casey is not God after all. He cannot win on a POS bike -- actually not even on one of the two best bikes, if it has chattering.
The 'enormous resources' of Honda do make the difference. Unlike Ducati, they do not appear to make dramatic changes (the bike always looks the same and follows the same architecture) but they churn out new chassis and swingarms and new electronics and seamless gearboxes and electronic updates and Jeez knows what all the time, no stop.
The same problem that has killed Ducati (incompatibility with new generations of spec tires) has probably slowed them down only for three races...!
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
You answered your own question. Cheers.
Nobody in the known planet was able to despite several world champions trying. Again, are you familiar with the word "anomaly" & "outlier"? That GP7 was a POS. But Stoner was hungry and dumb enough to push to the limit. That bike's potential is best displayed by its other riders. Whatever the explanation, he could ride it. Eliminate Stoner, and you have nearly today's Ducati in terms of competitiveness. I suppose the Ducati today has the speed and the acceleration and the unlocked code of handling if a perfect robot was riding it, it could manage victory.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
Lame, as usual. Nicky has said the GP12 has some excellent potential too, and has added, the things it does right are superior to other bikes. But its the missing parts that make the bike difficult to win on. Most people think the GP7 was great because they have the impressive visual of it blasting past on the straights. But lames can't distinguish the massive problems it hand in handling. How quickly people forget the bucking that bike did back then. You guys crying about "chatter" on the RCV, ...., you want to remind yourself what the GP7&8 looked like, watch Barbera's Ducati at Silverstone.
Casey hasn't riden around the "chatter" because he's been thinking about conspiracies and thoughts of retiring which have distracted him, have poisoned his focus. He rode around way worse problems, but that's when he had a big ... chip on his shoulder. The motivation and anger to show everybody they were wrong about him. Not to mention the massive drive to beat Rossi, the guy ruffling his feathers at the time. Now, maybe, he really doesn't give a .....
The Honda is a POS .... you say, hahaha, then say its one of the best. Umh, are you high? Did you see today's race? Thats what happens when you ride around with confidence and not having to worry about the pressure of your rival. That bike is fine, its his head that was ....... He has the talent to ride around these problems when he's not focusing on the problems. Read this last sentence again my friend.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
Actually throughout his career Stoner has complained about tires far more than the bike, both in his time at Ducati and now with Honda. He even admitted this current Honda is the best bike he's ever ridden. He also once said the 2009 cf Ducati was a great bike, a huge improvement over the trellis in 2008.
Arrabbiata1
Blue Smoker
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
- Messages
- 6,925
- Location
- Out of Nowhere
Then huge credit to Casey for this focus, following a dire weekends practice during which he suffered what he describes one of the worse get-off's of his career (have you seen it? it looked like he'd been catapulted out of a medieval siege machine) - he then rode possibly the best qualifying laps I've ever seen followed by a very commanding and intelligent race yesterday. As I say, bizarrely, as the tyres have worn the chatter has tended to intensify where it should be the complete reverse. It also seems that the problem doesn't manifest itself with the softer rubber which both riders are happy to use. Casey was able to use this and neither he or Dani suffered from serious degradation. I think Honda may have found something - although they looked lost on Thursday and going into Friday. The part of the equation that was missing was Lorenzo. The M1 permits him to have thrown in the harder compound but I know that he could have gone with the Honda's. If he could have beaten them - you have to believe he would have been faster at the end of the race, this would have been one of the most telling and decisive victories of the season.
Sorry for the stuck record syndrome but observing Dani riding that Honda through the Timmer chicane and prior to this from Ramshoek into Geert Timmer the RCV213v was crossed up as .... - much more so than the M1- and this really isn't the way he want's to ride employing a very similar style to Lorenzo. For whatever reason I think that Jorge can find a race setting quicker and easier on the M1 than Dani and Casey can on the Honda which is more susceptible to the different grades of rubber thrown at it. This is the reason I am currently arguing that the M1 is the slightly superior machine. The entire notion of the reverse cross plane crank was to aid stability and corner entry under late braking - a facet of Valentino's riding and something he is painfully missing now. We can continue to debate the relative advantages and merits of both the Honda and the Yam and these will prevail according to the nature of the circuit, track temperature, a myriad of other variables on the day including even such nebulous factors such as rider confidence and focus. I'm glad you mentioned that because I have also been arguing that some of the problem has been precisely this - particularly in the Pedrosa camp - knowing in advance that they have lacked a race set up to overhaul the on fire Lorenzo.
Quickly, whilst on the subject of Stoner crashes, Casey was saying that his Friday high side was one of the most painful of his career. Can anyone remember a qualifying crash at Welkom in, I'm guessing about 2003 - it must of been because he was riding in the 125 class for 'The Checch'. The bike had one of the most horrendous tank slappers in recent memory resulting in him going down very heavily. I can recall him being helped to his feet by the marshals as he was lead off he was so unsteady on his feet Toby termed it the London Marathon walk - it looked like he was being escorted home after 12 pints of Stella. Any rugby Union fans on here will remember the infamous Wade Dooley punch incident vs Argentina - the effect was much the same....can't find it on You Tube. Similarly can't find the Casey off. Don't know anyone that remembers this - but then half the neo's hadn't even heard of him back in '03
