Back Markers Under-Achievers? PART II

PART II (You can skip the first section if you already read it and go straight to the rider analysis)

What is the explanation for the back markers?

I made a list of our back markers (excluding Hayden & Melandri).

Disclaimer: Obviously Hayden & Melandri have under achieved. Keep in mind, under-achieving indicates that they are better than the results they’ve had so far. A person who is not that great and has bad result is NOT under-achieving, but rather meeting poor expectations. I excluded Hayden & Melandri from the list below because, well hell they get full dedicated threads about their woes, so I thought lets talk about the rest of the crew.

So excluding Hayden & Melandri, why have the following boys performed so badly (or have they)?

Current Points Standings and Rider/Team

16th DePuniet (LCR Honda satellite)
17th Guintoli (Ducati Alice satellite)
18th West (Kawasaki factory)


If we are to believe that the riders in MotoGP are the top riders in the world (for the sake of this thread, just accept it), then why is half the lower part of the grid dramatically out of contention after the first lap? Some of these riders come close to a minute plus past the finish line after the race winner, why? Are there special explanations or circumstances that 8-10 of the 18-rider grid is effectively an after thought in each and every race? (You can add your own question).

What is the explanation? Are they really under achieving? What is your verdict?

My answer: (It’s a long comprehensive one, but if you got the time, and you like to discuss MotoGP, then you might be willing to read the whole thing). We regularly bash the riders that end up as back markers in the race as riders that suck or haven't lived up to expectations. So what is the real story, or is there one?

DePuniet has about the same 250 results to show as Elias, nothing outstanding but fair (I guess). Does this merit a seat in MotoGP? Well if Elias is here then why not DePuniet, right? He has racked up a total of one ever podium in this class, but that is about it, no poles, not even a fastest race lap. If Elias is the style favorite champ, then DePuniet would clearly win the spectacular crashes award (if there was such a prize). Its interesting that LCR Honda must have a thing for crashers, after-all this is the seat vacated by Stoner in 06 only to have Randy--a proven and seasoned crasher sign on after being released by team green. It’s rather obvious what is the problem for DePuniet—crashes & crashes! I'm not gonna look it up, but I know at some point he had 7 DNFs last year, and I think he's the leader of DNF crashes this year (if somebody wants to look it up, great). But when hes not crashing, hes consistently finishing 9th (three this year). Again, he is on a Honda, normally this would mean the rider sucks as Honda is usually a good machine, but since the advent of 800s, I can't really blame the rider of a satellite; considering that the factory had sub par results last year (and seems intent on focusing all their attention on one particular 98 pound rider dear to Alberto Pig). (bias alert). Having said that, Dovi is perhaps the standard to judge satellite Hondas, and knowing that this is not DePuniet's rookie season, I'm gonna go out on a limb and blame him for sub par results. Verdict: He is definitely under achieving, you first have to finish to achieve, and he is not doing that.

Guintoli is perhaps one of two riders (West being the other) that one could (should) ask; 'has merit taken a back seat (no pun intended) regarding how & why they earned a place in MotoGP?' If you look to his record of results in 250s you will find a stark absence of wins, or 2nds for that matter. Yup, the man has never had a win or even a second, all he racked up was one ever podium, a third as a 250 rider. So how did he get to have a seat in MotoGP? Are we to believe that riders get into the pinnacle of motorcycle racing by falling between the cracks? (Another discussion thread for sure.) I'd be hard pressed to make a case why Guintoli deserves a ride in MotoGP (considering that there are only 18 spots in a sea of talent in all the major series around the world). But to his credit, he amassed that lone podium in 250s as a more classically defined privateer. (So I'll let you be the judge of whether he merited a ride in MotoGP). But while here, he did challenge for a podium last year on Dunlops. Now, he is on a Ducati. Perhaps the asterisk next to Guintoli should read: 'he hasn't accomplished much, but his non-podiums & non-accomplisments have been done on Dunlops and now on a Ducati.' Guintoli was rookie of the year on a Dunlop shod bike, so obviously we can look past results and ascertain rider ability despite poor package (or can we?) Guintoli has not been as impressive as his teammate, but by a very small margin. Guintoli has not cracked the top 10; his best was an 11th place finish, other than that it’s been a steady diet of 13-17th! So if Elias is the standard to judge Guintoli, then a similar verdict must prevail. The real question may be, is he a token Frenchman, and does he really deserve to be in the premier class? I'll let you decide, but as for the topic at hand... Verdict: I don't expect much from his riding, he is achieving along poor expectations on a rather ...... bike.

West may also be filed under 'how did this guy get a MotoGP seat?’ But to his credit, he has one more 250 victory than Guintoli. That is--one victory, ever. Perhaps we can look further back, all the way to his Australian national titles as a youngster. I didn't check, but then again maybe Guintoli won some kind of a title (none of us have heard about) in France. Unfortunately for us, we don't have that one member around here anymore to give us the full Monty of merit for West. But to his credit, he did win a few races in WSBK last year, which was impressive enough (it seems) to have caught the eye of a factory effort in MotoGP (that is, if we can call Kawasaki a factory effort). Nonetheless, West is here save the enigma. We can bash Melandri because we know he is a capable race winner, but West got his job by impressing in a few rounds in WSBK and backed it up with a few impressive showings (relatively speaking) last year in MotoGP. He did lead a race last year, but he was penalized for a mistake on the start grid. Lets turn attention to this year. I can't really say he has impressed (after-all he is last in points, well actually Okada is ‘last’ from that one-off race were he got 2 points) but West has a full single digit 8 more points than him. I can't really say its all Westy's fault considering that I have much respect for Hopkins, who has scored only 22 point more than West at the moment. After-all, West did beat one-person last race. His best showing has been a 13th, the rest have been 15-19th, no .... (that's bad even for those who remember KR’s last year free fall status). Teammates are usually the standard to judge the co-rider, but sometime there are special circumstance to consider (i.e. Peders--98 pound robot)/ Hayden--a normal sized human being); in the case of the Kawasaki team, Hopkins is a much better talent than West, so it may be unfair to compare the two. The one glaring similarity of course is their machine. Considering that it is a "full factory effort", and West is being beat by the likes of Guintoli on a satellite Ducati (who if you remember has ‘one’ less 250 win than Westy), then my verdict must come from comparing these two riders. Verdict: I don't expect much from West, so he is not underachieving (that is to say he is doing as expected) and he's doing it on a relatively crap bike.


Yes, I did have too much time on my hands. So please take a moment to comment on what you think about the topic and the riders mentioned.

They all smell of buy rider. One's those check book and bank account is looked at more than their actual riding abilities, especially Guintoli and DePuniet. Kawasaki just shows their inabilities to run a team by having Ant West ride for them.

DePuniet: at this point needs to leave. He underachieves and more importantly is a menace to other riders.
Guintoli: How many people really wanted his dunlop-shod ride last year? He's in the class because he came in on a terrible ride and beat his former race-winner teammate soundly enough. Doesn't take much merit to qualify for a Dunlop-shod bike, so I say he's in on merit. He did well enough last year to get a shot on a "real" ride this year. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that he's gotten one as the Ducati's are ..... Beaten by his teammate, not really showing flashes - he's not showing enough to stick around and doesn't have the competitive-machinery track record to suggest that he's underachieving.
West: Bad bike, not so great rider. Not sure if he has the maturity or work ethic to be a full time GP rider. It seems like all offseason there was crap popping up on how he had to make big lifestyle/fitness changes because he was overwhelmed or some ..... He jumped in and did OK (during a period where a lot of better riders picked up DNFs) at first last year, but tailed off late. I give him credit for jumping straight from doing crap on a 250 to podiums and wins in 3 world supersport races to midpack results in motogp, but it seems that instant adaptability is about all he has going, along with wet racing, at this point. He did just enough to make you entertain the thought "hmm, it'd be interesting if he had a bit more time to acclimate to the bike". Well, now we know. The turd sinks to the bottom.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jun 14 2008, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They all smell of buy rider. One's those check book and bank account is looked at more than their actual riding abilities, especially Guintoli and DePuniet. Kawasaki just shows their inabilities to run a team by having Ant West ride for them.
Ok, so you think the two Frenchies are token riders? Is this correct? As far as west, you didn't think for a little bit last year that he might actually show some brilliance. I know we all crapped on him for that starting grid snafoo, but he did lead a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jun 14 2008, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>DePuniet: at this point needs to leave. He underachieves and more importantly is a menace to other riders.
Guintoli: How many people really wanted his dunlop-shod ride last year? He's in the class because he came in on a terrible ride and beat his former race-winner teammate soundly enough. Doesn't take much merit to qualify for a Dunlop-shod bike, so I say he's in on merit. He did well enough last year to get a shot on a "real" ride this year. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that he's gotten one as the Ducati's are ..... Beaten by his teammate, not really showing flashes - he's not showing enough to stick around and doesn't have the competitive-machinery track record to suggest that he's underachieving.
West: Bad bike, not so great rider. Not sure if he has the maturity or work ethic to be a full time GP rider. It seems like all offseason there was crap popping up on how he had to make big lifestyle/fitness changes because he was overwhelmed or some ..... He jumped in and did OK (during a period where a lot of better riders picked up DNFs) at first last year, but tailed off late. I give him credit for jumping straight from doing crap on a 250 to podiums and wins in 3 world supersport races to midpack results in motogp, but it seems that instant adaptability is about all he has going, along with wet racing, at this point. He did just enough to make you entertain the thought "hmm, it'd be interesting if he had a bit more time to acclimate to the bike". Well, now we know. The turd sinks to the bottom.

Thanks Mat for putting together a well thought out response. It seems from the looks of the number of posts here that even these guys take a back seat in interest from the fans. He only have 18 riders but only about 5 get any kind of interest and discussion, It seems as if they are invisible!

I agree that DePuniet may be a menace to other riders, Even the commentators joke around when he is attempting a pass or a rider trying to over take him. He does seem to be fast, and one might admire his fast or crash attitude if he just did more fast than crash.

If beating your teammate means anything then Guintoli has on him a double edge sword. He seems likable, but talent is what is suppose to prevail in the sport, right? You never know until they reach this level, but I could think of a few riders that I think could be better than him.

About West, you hit on some great points. Yes his work ethic has been questioned, but if he was all that unfit, would he have won those races against the regular in WSBK last year? I don't know, but something to think about.

Anybody else notice the guys riding around in MotoGP other than Rossi, Peders, Stoner, Lorenzo, and Hayden?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anybody else notice the guys riding around in MotoGP other than Rossi, Peders, Stoner, Lorenzo, and Hayden?

Yes, I notice Edwards, JT, Capirossi, Dovi as they all seem to be performing well this year. I also am pulling for Hopkins and Melandri, but they are just having a nightmare of a season.


But getting to your topic:

De Puniet - I'm starting to wonder if he is the official Moto GP safety test rider, making sure each corner run off is safe enough. But seriously, he was a decent 250 racer, but we all know he is there to fill in the French market, unfortunately the French don't have a lot of great riders. Maybe if De Meglio performs well this year they can move him to Moto GP. I laugh every time De Puniet crashes, because its such a sure bet, I feel bad for him but he has had plenty of time to figure it out, and it's not working. I don't see how any team would hire him as a rider knowing they are going to be working on crashed machinery constantly, having high costs due to crashing, and being let down race after race when your rider doesn't finish.

Guintolli - Again it seems he is in GP because of his nationality. As far as his results, he is a back of the pack rider on a back of the pack bike, so his results are expected.

West - He is riding on the green machine, that alone is worth 8-10 places down on your finishing position. Not sure what Kawasaki saw in West, but I doubt we will be seeing him next year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 04:18 PM)
Anybody else notice the guys riding around in MotoGP other than Rossi, Peders, Stoner, Lorenzo, and Hayden?

can't say i have mate, and who's peders stoner and lorenzo ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, so you think the two Frenchies are token riders? Is this correct? As far as west, you didn't think for a little bit last year that he might actually show some brilliance. I know we all crapped on him for that starting grid snafoo, but he did lead a race.

There are decent buy riders. Nelson Philipe in Champ Car in 2006 won a race.

West did show some ability, but in only a few outings. True the Kawasaki is against him, but there are more skilled riders who should get in that seat. His background doesn't suggest the ability to get a factory team, no matter what factory team, to sign him sounds funny. His background doesn't deserve a factory ride or a ride in MotoGP. He showed some flashes of brilliance last season. Many riders do that. Toni Elias has shown abilities, even winning a race, but I bet you he is footing his bill at D'Antin.

Guintolli was essentially unheard of to many, but finds himself on a MotoGP bike last year. His performances last year are no deserving of a ride this year. He had a bad tire, bad bike in 2007, and beat his token teammate, but he didn't put up any numbers, showed any real pace.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Jun 16 2008, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>De Puniet - I'm starting to wonder if he is the official Moto GP safety test rider, making sure each corner run off is safe enough. But seriously, he was a decent 250 racer, but we all know he is there to fill in the French market, unfortunately the French don't have a lot of great riders. Maybe if De Meglio performs well this year they can move him to Moto GP. I laugh every time De Puniet crashes, because its such a sure bet, I feel bad for him but he has had plenty of time to figure it out, and it's not working. I don't see how any team would hire him as a rider knowing they are going to be working on crashed machinery constantly, having high costs due to crashing, and being let down race after race when your rider doesn't finish.
I am involved in a tipping comp on another forum where you must pick the first DNF in each race. Each race I loyally pick Randy Sadly, although De Punt-it has had a few offs this year already, he's never been classified as first DNF. When his last off caused Melandri to crash in avoidance he was classified as 2nd crasher and Melandri as first

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jun 16 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Many riders do that. Toni Elias has shown abilities, even winning a race, but I bet you he is footing his bill at D'Antin.
Elaborate please.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, so you think the two Frenchies are token riders? Is this correct? As far as west, you didn't think for a little bit last year that he might actually show some brilliance. I know we all crapped on him for that starting grid snafoo, but he did lead a race.

So have Guintoli and De Puniet, and both at le mans last year !!
I think also that it may just be that they are french, you need mass nations in MotoGP, who else from france is faster ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Elaborate please.
Neil Hodgson was offered D antin in 07 season and he said that the deal was he put his personal sponsership into the team,ie, axo and helmets and boots deals, and also he was not gonna get paid, he told me personally that he could assure me he aint getting paid !!
Poor Tony !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Jun 16 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neil Hodgson was offered D antin in 07 season and he said that the deal was he put his personal sponsership into the team,ie, axo and helmets and boots deals, and also he was not gonna get paid, he told me personally that he could assure me he aint getting paid !!
Poor Tony !


If a former British and World Superbike Champ needs to bring money to get a ride in MotoGP, how do nobody's get MotoGP seats without money?

Jumkie, West might not be a buy rider (Kawasaki has alot of money and wouldn't need it), but his place with the ream is funny being last place on the grid every race and getting paid.

West is one of the few overrated Australian riders on the world scene who I question has what it takes to really make it in MotoGP or WSBK. Here in Australia we are subjected to alot repeated excuses for him as having had a bad run and limited opportunities etc. That is true to an extent but I don't see him achieving results and making it. He is not in the same class as a Stoner or a Vermuelen for example. Its a hard to act to follow and compete with the great legacy of Doohan, Bayliss and Corser etc but I have to say I have grave doubts about West on the world scene (Brock Parkes - same thing).

Guintoli - never noticed him in a race! Just seen his name at the back of the grid and at the back of the results list..

De Puniet has some real ability and determination to succeed I believe. He has posted some fast times on comparatively poor bikes (usually during qualifying) and with further experience will continue to improve. Has the ability to ride a good race and record a result. Would like to see him with the opportunity to compete on a decent factory bike, he'd give 110% and wouldn't die wondering..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ Jun 16 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>West is one of the few overrated Australian riders on the world scene who I question has what it takes to really make it in MotoGP or WSBK. Here in Australia we are subjected to alot repeated excuses for him as having had a bad run and limited opportunities etc. That is true to an extent but I don't see him achieving results and making it. He is not in the same class as a Stoner or a Vermuelen for example. Its a hard to act to follow and compete with the great legacy of Doohan, Bayliss and Corser etc but I have to say I have grave doubts about West on the world scene (Brock Parkes - same thing).

Guintoli - never noticed him in a race! Just seen his name at the back of the grid and at the back of the results list..

Interesting. I'll admit, I wanted to see him in a MotoGP after those wins in WSBK.

About Guintoli, you never see him because Dorna focus all their attention on the top 5-7 riders, regardless of what's going on at the back. I think its a dis-service, its not like the grid is made of 25+ bikes. I don't see why they can't let us see a few overtaking or at least a glimpse of the riding style of back markers.

Sadly, the back markers, especially these last one don’t seem to spark the interest of views or posters alike. Maybe if they got more TV time we might be more inclined to discuss their performance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jun 16 2008, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There are decent buy riders. Nelson Philipe in Champ Car in 2006 won a race.

West did show some ability, but in only a few outings. True the Kawasaki is against him, but there are more skilled riders who should get in that seat. His background doesn't suggest the ability to get a factory team, no matter what factory team, to sign him sounds funny. His background doesn't deserve a factory ride or a ride in MotoGP. He showed some flashes of brilliance last season. Many riders do that. Toni Elias has shown abilities, even winning a race, but I bet you he is footing his bill at D'Antin.

<u>Guintolli was essentially unheard of to many</u>, but finds himself on a MotoGP bike last year. His performances last year are no deserving of a ride this year. He had a bad tire, bad bike in 2007, and beat his token teammate, but he didn't put up any numbers, showed any real pace.


Only to those not paying enough attention

Guintolli has been around since 2000, raced in motogp in 2002 and up to 2007 spent the rest of his time in 250cc.

I think he is a fine rider and had he stayed on with Tech 3 he would be between mid to the sharp end of the standings, Yea last year the M1 sucked but I though there were races where his ability was showing and he showed pace at times but it did'nt pan out for any real results. He finished 16th were as his team mate Tamada with a lot more experience on the biggerish bikes finished 18th.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 17 2008, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting. I'll admit, I wanted to see him in a MotoGP after those wins in WSBK.

About Guintoli, you never see him because Dorna focus all their attention on the top 5-7 riders, regardless of what's going on at the back. I think its a dis-service, its not like the grid is made of 25+ bikes. I don't see why they can't let us see a few overtaking or at least a glimpse of the riding style of back markers.

Sadly, the back markers, especially these last one don’t seem to spark the interest of views or posters alike. Maybe if they got more TV time we might be more inclined to discuss their performance.

I agree with you Jumkie, I wish they would take some time and show us more of the other racing action that is going on. Especially during these run away ones, I could really care less to watch Puig cheering on his boy as he goes around lap after lap. Spend that airtime on the rest of the field as they are trading positions. Seems like every race I am always curious what JT, Dovi, Cappers, and such are up to. Instead we get to see the distance Rossi is pulling on Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Jun 17 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you Jumkie, I wish they would take some time and show us more of the other racing action that is going on. Especially during these run away ones, I could really care less to watch Puig cheering on his boy, rubbing his balls, playing pocket pool, licking his lips, breathing heavy mumbling, oh Dani, oh Dani oh Dani, as he goes around lap after lap.

fixed it for ya

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jun 17 2008, 09:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>fixed it for ya

Hahahaha, some funny .... there Curve

And probably true as Puig's obsession with that kid is downright scary.