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ASSEN GP: Predict, Practice, Qual

Tom said:
I know jumkie is a fan of his buzzwords but you are being a bit unreasonable. 'moving heaven and earth' is just a figure of speach to express the massive efforts Ducati are willing to go to for Rossi's benefit. You have attached this figure of speach or perceived effort level to one particular technical aspect of Ducati's motogp effort, but that is an unreasonably rigid and focussed reaction to what is ultimately a descriptive phrase. You seem to be overlooking the context and missing the big picture, zoom out a bit and see that Ducati have gone way above and beyond anything they have been prepared to do in their motogp history and miles ahead of the lengths of any other factory. You may not necessarily agree that these changes are connected to Rossi's arrival and you may not particularly like Jumkie's chosen phrase, but to deny the point he is clearly trying to make is just naive, especially if it's on the basis that they haven't gone to a conventional drame design. You are knowledgable enough to know that doing that would only put them further behind.



Last year i highly doubt you would have agreed with the statement: Honda clearly aren't bothered about winning an 800cc title because they haven't rolled out a V5 to replace their 4 cylinder effort. But this is of similar magnitude to your claim, just applied in reverse to another team/rider combination.
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My entire point is that Ducati are moving whatever they can because they have realized that they need a competitive bike that suits more than just one rider. I hold that Rossi is not the reason for their special efforts, as Jum insists -- had they hired Lorenzo, they would be exactly in the same situation and moving the same "heaven and earth" trying to sort the bike "for Lorenzo". That's all there is to it.



 
Keshav said:
I'm not nearly the gearhead that you and Lex are, so pardon me if I sound naive here, but could it be

the extra CCs were flexing the chassis more and that reduced CCs resulted in a stiffer feel overall?
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It's kind of logic to think that. We'll see at Mugello, where the GP12 has done very well in the tests. If the GP11.1 fails there, then the only difference between the two bikes is the engine capacity and the power/torque. They'll be able to compare the data directly and maybe find the answer they have been looking for.
 
Evolution said:
So you think they both made this desperate move independently? Or perhaps it was Hayden who forced Stoner? it is clear that they could not let one bike go on wet tires and one on slicks as it would have made the outgoing world champ look even silier
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Parhaps I'm naive, but I'd be very surprised if Ducati sent Hayden out there on wets just to make Stoner look sane. My best guess is that Hayden, being well aware that the GP9 was a pile of ...., decided that if he had a chance of finishing in the top 10, needed to take a gamble. If someone with any real information on the matter could shed any light, I'd be very happy to hear it.



J4rn0 said:
My entire point is that Ducati are moving whatever they can because they have realized that they need a competitive bike that suits more than just one rider. I hold that Rossi is not the reason for their special efforts, as Jum insists -- had they hired Lorenzo, they would be exactly in the same situation and moving the same "heaven and earth" trying to sort the bike "for Lorenzo". That's all there is to it.
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If you believe they would've moved heaven and earth for Lorenzo, why wouldn't they move heaven and earth for Stoner? Because Stoner brings in less sponsorship money than Rossi and Lorenzo? Or are you saying Ducati literally just realized their bikes didn't work at the summer break of last season.
 
J4rn0 said:
My entire point is that Ducati are moving whatever they can because they have realized that they need a competitive bike that suits more than just one rider. I hold that Rossi is not the reason for their special efforts, as Jum insists -- had they hired Lorenzo, they would be exactly in the same situation and moving the same "heaven and earth" trying to sort the bike "for Lorenzo". That's all there is to it.
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So you believe that Ducati are moving heaven and earth to fix their bike and getting Rossi was part of that, rather than that they hired Rossi and are moving heaven and earth as a result?
 
J4rn0 said:
Bravo. I was able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together only recently. Now for the ultimate mistery: why did the Ducati become such a ..... when passing from 990 to 800? As it seems it wasn't before, according to Capi and also Bayliss. The basic design didn't change.
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Ducati have always, and I am sure still do, build great engines, and the wsbk seems to handle well enough with a steel trellis-frame chassis, antiquated or not. But that is a V2, and I am not sure the 990 motogp ducati V4/L4 was ever all that nimble either.



As we have discussed many times presiozi decided to go all out for ultimate engine/straight line performance with the GP07, and tame the power delivery etc with electronics; I understand that the 800cc engine is much peakier than the 990, and even for the other manufacturers would be a handful without electronics. I think the mistake was in believing that it was totally the electronics rather than stoner that tamed the beast, perhaps understandably seeing this was a fairly universal view in 2007; it emerges that there are unique aspects to his riding style that melded with the bike, and their confluence was serendipitous for both stoner and ducati .



I have no problem with them throwing money at the bike now, particularly as they have little other choice and (perhaps temporarily) have resources they didn't have during stoner's time. I don't think they would have gone for a radical re-design of the bike just on stoner's say-so, and he probably didn't have the experience to lead such a re-design; the current initiative is being led by both rossi and jb with all the experience that involves, which still does not guarantee success.



What annoys me is the blaming (not by you) of the gp10 and gp11 on stoner's development skills; whether or not he has development skills, these bikes were designed with riders other than him in mind, and it was specifically said that they wanted more rear grip and to shift the balance rearwards; this led to an apparently even less stable bike, and probably took away from the unique things stoner did with rear braking/sliding to steer the bike with the back. It is also said he gave the go-ahead both for the switch to big-bang and going full carbon fibre which I don't think happened till the 2010 bike, but whilst brash he may be unprincipled he is not, and if he had made up his mind to leave as I think he had before the 2010 season I don't believe he would have held out against change which might better suit his successors.
 
michaelm said:
Ducati have always, and I am sure still do, build great engines, and the wsbk seems to handle well enough with a steel trellis-frame chassis, antiquated or not. But that is a V2, and I am not sure the 990 motogp ducati V4/L4 was ever all that nimble either.



As we have discussed many times presiozi decided to go all out for ultimate engine/straight line performance with the GP07, and tame the power delivery etc with electronics; I understand that the 800cc engine is much peakier than the 990, and even for the other manufacturers would be a handful without electronics. I think the mistake was in believing that it was totally the electronics rather than stoner that tamed the beast, perhaps understandably seeing this was a fairly universal view in 2007; it emerges that there are unique aspects to his riding style that melded with the bike, and their confluence was serendipitous for both stoner and ducati .



I have no problem with them throwing money at the bike now, particularly as they have little other choice and (perhaps temporarily) have resources they didn't have during stoner's time. I don't think they would have gone for a radical re-design of the bike just on stoner's say-so, and he probably didn't have the experience to lead such a re-design; the current initiative is being led by both rossi and jb with all the experience that involves, which still does not guarantee success.



What annoys me is the blaming (not by you) of the gp10 and gp11 on stoner's development skills; whether or not he has development skills, these bikes were designed with riders other than him in mind, and it was specifically said that they wanted more rear grip and to shift the balance rearwards; this led to an apparently even less stable bike, and probably took away from the unique things stoner did with rear braking/sliding to steer the bike with the back. It is also said he gave the go-ahead both for the switch to big-bang and going full carbon fibre which I don't think happened till the 2010 bike, but whilst brash he may be unprincipled he is not, and if he had made up his mind to leave as I think he had before the 2010 season I don't believe he would have held out against change which might better suit his successors.
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The Ducati GP has always been a powerful but peculiar bike, however the 990 was not too difficult to ride: Capirossi and Bayliss are testimony of that. With the 800, many things changed for the worse actually, but they had Stoner who could exploit its power and the Bridgestone tires anyway, and win on it. The fact that Stoner kept winning races also in the following years is the main reason why they did not consider designing a completely new bike: you do not want to change something that wins. Stoner's development capabilities have nothing to do with that conservative decision. And even now, with the GP12, they have not yet departed from that basic design.
 
J4rn0 said:
The Ducati GP has always been a powerful but peculiar bike, however the 990 was not too difficult to ride: Capirossi and Bayliss are testimony of that. With the 800, many things changed for the worse actually, but they had Stoner who could exploit its power and the Bridgestone tires anyway, and win on it. The fact that Stoner kept winning races also in the following years is the main reason why they did not consider designing a completely new bike: you do not want to change something that wins. Stoner's development capabilities have nothing to do with that conservative decision. And even now, with the GP12, they have not yet departed from that basic design.
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I still think they made changes for the worse between the gp09 and gp10; the gp09 may not have been fast for others, but did not seem to have the front-end instability for both stoner and others of the gp10. He only put the GP09 down once, the famous warm-up lap lose.
 
ThePhorest said:
GO BEN!!!!
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Bens fucken HOPELESS hes just got a break but LETS SEE BENNY FROM NOW ON?????
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AND THAT IS BE!!!
 
Scotty said:
why??????????????
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!!!
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C'mon mate this motogp the pinnacle of motorcycle racing not some back yard domestic series like we have here. Single tyre rule has no place in this competition.





& what the ...... ....??



Bens fucken Bens fucken HOPELESS hes just got a break but LETS SEE BENNY FROM NOW ON????? AND THAT IS BE!!!





Anyone that can win the ama, WSBK title and race in motogp is HOPELESS?
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Badfish said:
C'mon mate this motogp the pinnacle of motorcycle racing not some back yard domestic series like we have here. Single tyre rule has no place in this competition.
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I like the single tyre rule. I hated the fact that before it, race outcomes could be decided on which tyre your team ran.



People have always crashed on cold tyres, its un avoidable and nothing new.
 
Baffy said:
People have always crashed on cold tyres, its un avoidable and nothing new.
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That's true, but I don't remember a tire as notoriously difficult to heat as these Bridgestones. My opinion is that they're playing it safe because it would be embarrassing to have tires that go off at the end of the race. Without the competition, Bridgestone have no reason to offer the riders something softer with shorter life. It's much safer for their image to provide a compound that's going to last the distance without problem, regardless of all this cold tire business. But if people start speaking up more and more, as appears to be happening, it's possible something could change.
 
Im perfectly happy to admit being wrong, but i cant remember any cold tyre crashes that have come after 3-4 laps on a new tyre?



I think Bridgestone has to select which tyres to send to an event a full week before don't they? So they have to make conservative choices so that the tyre will at least half suit the conditions.
 
Baffy said:
Im perfectly happy to admit being wrong, but i cant remember any cold tyre crashes that have come after 3-4 laps on a new tyre?



I think Bridgestone has to select which tyres to send to an event a full week before don't they? So they have to make conservative choices so that the tyre will at least half suit the conditions.
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I can't name a cold tire crash after three or four laps, either. However, Toby and Julian have been harping on about the tires losing a considerable amount of heat down the straights. I've never heard so much about the topic before, which leads me to believe that these tires are never-before-seen-levels of hard.



Personally, I'd rather see them experiment with trading tire life for grip. But that's just me.
 
Austin said:
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If you believe they would've moved heaven and earth for Lorenzo, why wouldn't they move heaven and earth for Stoner? Because Stoner brings in less sponsorship money than Rossi and Lorenzo? Or are you saying Ducati literally just realized their bikes didn't work at the summer break of last season.
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Because Stoner kept doing fastest laps and scoring wins, and as Burgess said, they paid more attention to the successes than the failures. You do not want to change things too much when you are at the top, it takes very little to make things worse. By end 2009 anyway they had accepted that most of their success was due to Stoner, so they tried to change more things to suit other riders but then, when Hayden was faster, Stoner was slower. They understood it was not so easy to change the bike and were almost afraid of trying too much: as soon as they gave Stoner his 'normal' bike back, he was immediately fast again and scored three wins at the end of last season, -- blame them for not changing his bike...!
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Now with Stoner gone, and the 1000cc class coming, they have no choice but change. They would be changing everything with or without Rossi. With Rossi they have more chances of getting it right in time for next year though.
 

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