Assen 2016

yamfan · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
You're very close to saying Lorenzo skipping the race all together was in the best interest of his championship. He went out ready and willing to not earn any points.

I agree that if for the remaining races the conditions suit him well enough to win the championship then good on him.

You're sounding butt hurt that your boy threw it up the road, so you have nothing to gloat over.
Instead you try to deflect your feelings and your inner troll by attacking Lorenzo.
If Rossi can't win the title this year with Lorenzo on the way out and not getting full backing from Yamaha, he's not going to win it again. He's got his tyres back to suit him and Marquez on an ill handling and poorly accelerating Honda too, and he's still not managing to beat either guy.
Marquez will take the title this year and HRC will fix the Honda next year for another season long domination, Rossi will still be 7(9) times champion and a MotoGP great, but the tenth title, forget it!
Deflect things all you like, Rossi was the best, he ain't any more...

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

michaelm said:
Yes that is my argument.

Doing that would also have stopped him injuring himself and drastically diminishing his title chances, and he actually said he considered not finishing the race, so I am not close to saying it I would be prepared to say it, although staying out and not riding hard enough to crash but being in position to pick up a few points if conditions changed and points became easily available to him proved a superior strategy as eventuated; he didn't crash and injure himself but did manage to get those 6 points.

I see this as evidence of his absolute bullheadedness which is one of the things for which I came to admire him, and I don't negelect and nor does he that his team would very likely prefer his team-mate rather than him win the championship.

I know Assen is just one race and Lorenzo could return to fighting for the win next round. But, do you find it even a little bit worrisome that he is allowing thoughts of getting hurt to creep into his mind and affect his confidence?

In the multiple GP documentaries where riders are being interviewed and discussing the dangers of the sport, they all say they're aware of the danger but it's best to not really think about it. Once they start thinking about it, they start slowing down.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

yamfan said:
You're sounding butt hurt that your boy threw it up the road, so you have nothing to gloat over.
Instead you try to deflect your feelings and your inner troll by attacking Lorenzo.
If Rossi can't win the title this year with Lorenzo on the way out and not getting full backing from Yamaha, he's not going to win it again. He's got his tyres back to suit him and Marquez on an ill handling and poorly accelerating Honda too, and he's still not managing to beat either guy.
Marquez will take the title this year and HRC will fix the Honda next year for another season long domination, Rossi will still be 7(9) times champion and a MotoGP great, but the tenth title, forget it!
Deflect things all you like, Rossi was the best, he ain't any more...

Nobody follows the sport or any rider in the sport with expectation that they'll never crash or have setbacks. There's no reason to be butthurt over it. If anything the blown engine at Mugello stung worse.

1/10 troll attempt.

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Because it wasn't just Rabat that passed him. Every rider (that started behind him) passed him, was every bike better in the heavy rain? Even cutting Lorenzo slack that he often struggles in the wet, he doesn't arrive in last place! I believe he's better than that.

Correct me, but did not all other riders (with one or two minor exceptions) also pass your man?

The difference being that JL then passed some others (technically, including your man) and earnt points

moto vudu said:
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that not getting hurt was his primary goal, earning points was secondary. I don't think Lorenzo is scared, I saw the onboard footage of him pushing 200mph going into turn 1 at Le Mans. The man isn't scared, but just by watching the dry FP3 session you could see he was having a very hard time. When he had that high speed lowside that was it for him, I think from that point on he was determined to leave Assen unhurt even if it meant no points.

This may well be true and in that regard he did quite well as he avoided injury and got points (let us also NOT forget that his tumble in practice was relatively big as well)

Leaving Assen unhurt allows him to focus on what is ahead (thankfully from all reports thus far it seems all riders are able to do) not injury recovery which affects physically and mentally but also of course preparations for the next race

Sure it may not be to your liking, it may well have been very ugly but the championship is not decided by one race alone and thus for me, JL showed mental toughness in recognising his limit and not trying to push beyond that limit, even when riders he would only usually see in the paddock or as he lapped them came past, he did not panic and make a mistake

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
I know Assen is just one race and Lorenzo could return to fighting for the win next round. But, do you find it even a little bit worrisome that he is allowing thoughts of getting hurt to creep into his mind and affect his confidence?

In the multiple GP documentaries where riders are being interviewed and discussing the dangers of the sport, they all say they're aware of the danger but it's best to not really think about it. Once they start thinking about it, they start slowing down.

Nothing to worry about ............... yet.

Yes all riders will say that they know of the danger, many will say that it is that very danger which drives them and thus many will say that this very drug (danger) makes them who they are in terms of the sport.

Definitely agree that when riders start to focus on the danger or their fear of getting injured becomes a constant fear, then that is when they will slow down and should consider their options, but JL is not there yet.

FWIW, most if not all riders will also comment at times about the risk/fear of injuries (VR having made such comments after his broken leg for example) but that is all they are, comments.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

JPSLotus · Jun 29, 2016

michaelm said:
Yes that is my argument.

Doing that would also have stopped him injuring himself and drastically diminishing his title chances, and he actually said he considered not finishing the race, so I am not close to saying it I would be prepared to say it, although staying out and not riding hard enough to crash but being in position to pick up a few points if conditions changed and points became easily available to him proved a superior strategy as eventuated; he didn't crash and injure himself but did manage to get those 6 points.

I see this as evidence of his absolute bullheadedness which is one of the things for which I came to admire him, and I don't negelect and nor does he that his team would very likely prefer his team-mate rather than him win the championship.

Alain Prost had a reputation as being a poor wet weather driver because he didn't like to drive in the rain. None of it was true. He was a great wet weather driver. What changed his mind about driving in the wet was when Didier Pironi's career was ended at Hockenheim 1982. Pironi ran into the back of Prost's Renault in the rain during a practice session when he didn't see him in the spray. Prost saw what happened to his legs and it changed his thinking for good about the risks of wet weather driving. Adelaide 1989 was a torrential rain storm for the Australian Grand Prix. Prost had no interest in risking his life for anything, and pulled into the pits on the first lap and parked the car. Given nearly half the field crashed out in appalling conditions, you can't say he didn't make the smart decision.

JPSLotus · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:

Ironic you should use the driver who intentionally crashed out his competitor at 150mph to secure a world title as supporting evidence.

Freudian slip there?

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Ironic you should use the driver who intentionally crashed out his competitor at 150mph to secure a world title as supporting evidence.

Freudian slip there?

Probably, but his quote popped in my head when discussing the dangers of motorsport.

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Alain Prost had a reputation as being a poor wet weather driver because he didn't like to drive in the rain. None of it was true. He was a great wet weather driver. What changed his mind about driving in the wet was when Didier Pironi's career was ended at Hockenheim 1982. Pironi ran into the back of Prost's Renault in the rain during a practice session when he didn't see him in the spray. Prost saw what happened to his legs and it changed his thinking for good about the risks of wet weather driving. Adelaide 1989 was a torrential rain storm for the Australian Grand Prix. Prost had no interest in risking his life for anything, and pulled into the pits on the first lap and parked the car. Given nearly half the field crashed out in appalling conditions, you can't say he didn't make the smart decision.

A great example of just why the rain lights are so important in today's motorsports (and not having a go at you as you and Dani both recognised the risk, others did not)

paparazzo · Jun 29, 2016

Gaz said:
See MV, this is where inner bopperism or seeming malcontent for JL shows (let each pick their own description).

You say that VR's fans are comfortable that he crashed as he gave maximum effort ............ ok, cool I can accept that and see your background for the comment

You then seemingly criticise JL who gave HIS MAXIMUM EFFORT within the circumstances because in your opinion his MAXIMUM effort should have been greater.

You return point will likely be that VR showed the level of maximum effort, which if so means that to appease people than JL should have crashed whilst trying to achieve the levels of VR's maximum effort.

JL may not have ridden to your level of satisfaction, and dare I say to many's level of satisfaction but at the end of the day his MAXIMUM effort produced 6 points for his tally whilst the MAXIMUM effort of some others (not just VR here) produced a big fat 0 in points.

Even if Jorge crashed it would be even worse, going 3-6 seconds slower laps an crasjing would mean he shouldn't be on the bike in wet conditions period. It is one thing to crash being the fastest rider on the track (proves you are pushing the limit) but crashing running 6 seconds slower does not mean he gave 'maximum' effort.

Gaz said:
You see, here is the crus - who determines the limit?

If it was VR's performance that JL is vindicated because VR fell.

If it is you (or fans like yourself who feel he could have done better) defining the limit, then on what basis do you do this or what qualifications do you possess that allows you to make a better judgement than the rider himself?

Yes he is being paid millions but again you are assuming that he DID NOT ride to the BEST of his ability or capability within the circumstances which given the FACT that he finished a race held in difficult circumstances is a questionable assumption.

You keep bringing up 'he score points, he score points'. Jorge already said these points were as result of crashing riders (trying to actually push for position) than his absent wet riding talent. Never heard of top rider settling to run around close to last place begging for race to end, especially a world champion. The only time I remember any motorsport where driver gave up in wet was Prost 1989 Adelaide. Comical to see everyone look for excuse for Jorge, had this been Vale, oh boy you guys would have feast.

The limit is define by your faster teamate who is on the same equipment and tires. One would expect Jorge to be at least within reasonable range of Valentino. Even Tito Rabat was rarely slower than Jack Miller by more than 2 seconds, most laps were less than that. You and Gramps can try and spin this any way you like, even go back to 2012 with Rossi on the Ducati to justify Jorge's brutal performance. Does not change the fact that being many seconds/lap slower than the slowest satellite bike is unacceptable.

WVMotoGP99 · Jun 29, 2016

paparazzo said:
Even if Jorge crashed it would be even worse, going 3-6 seconds slower laps an crasjing would mean he shouldn't be on the bike in wet conditions period. It is one thing to crash being the fastest rider on the track (proves you are pushing the limit) but crashing running 6 seconds slower does not mean he gave 'maximum' effort.

You keep bringing up 'he score points, he score points'. Jorge already said these points were as result of crashing riders (trying to actually push for position) than his absent wet riding talent. Never heard of top rider settling to run around close to last place begging for race to end, especially a world champion. The only time I remember any motorsport where driver gave up in wet was Prost 1989 Adelaide. Comical to see everyone look for excuse for Jorge, had this been Vale, oh boy you guys would have feast.

The limit is define by your faster teamate who is on the same equipment and tires. One would expect Jorge to be at least within reasonable range of Valentino. Even Tito Rabat was rarely slower than Jack Miller by more than 2 seconds, most laps were less than that. You and Gramps can try and spin this any way you like, even go back to 2012 with Rossi on the Ducati to justify Jorge's brutal performance. Does not change the fact that being many seconds/lap slower than the slowest satellite bike is unacceptable.

So.. Your team, you would tell your rider to crash out of the race rather than being the slowest guy on the track, and getting points?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

paparazzo said:
Even if Jorge crashed it would be even worse, going 3-6 seconds slower laps an crasjing would mean he shouldn't be on the bike in wet conditions period. It is one thing to crash being the fastest rider on the track (proves you are pushing the limit) but crashing running 6 seconds slower does not mean he gave 'maximum' effort.

Absolutely if he was 3 - 6 seconds slower and crashed it would have been worse than the result he attained

But here is a fact.

That did not happen and he scored points, thus your supposition is purely hypothetical, what happened on the weekend is factual in terms of the positions finished

paparazzo said:
You keep bringing up 'he score points, he score points'. Jorge already said these points were as result of crashing riders (trying to actually push for position) than his absent wet riding talent. Never heard of top rider settling to run around close to last place begging for race to end, especially a world champion. The only time I remember any motorsport where driver gave up in wet was Prost 1989 Adelaide. Comical to see everyone look for excuse for Jorge, had this been Vale, oh boy you guys would have feast.

FWIW, it is not absent WET weather talent, suggest that your google again and check JL's wet race history which is quite good (not as good as VR's) as it is changeable conditions that are his issue.

As for your usual 'if this was Valentino people would want him banned for 12 months' diatribe, not one person here has called for any ban from this race so continue your search for all things anti-VR Talps.

paparazzo said:
The limit is define by your faster teamate who is on the same equipment and tires. One would expect Jorge to be at least within reasonable range of Valentino. Even Tito Rabat was rarely slower than Jack Miller by more than 2 seconds, most laps were less than that. You and Gramps can try and spin this any way you like, even go back to 2012 with Rossi on the Ducati to justify Jorge's brutal performance. Does not change the fact that being many seconds/lap slower than the slowest satellite bike is unacceptable.

My faster teammate fell - thus he rode over the limit and thus my limit is the one that should be used.

The faster team mate that you mention did not finish and nor were they classified as a finisher, thus any ........ about judging against them is rendered irrelevant as 'to finish first, first one must finish'

By the way Talps where do I mention 2012 on the Ducati?

You last line is laughable actually and once again displays your JL dislike as others finished behind Satellite bikes (...., Marquez finished 2 seconds back) and yet they seem to be outside of your scope of usual yellow blinded one-sided arguments

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

WVMotoGP99 said:
So.. Your team, you would tell your rider to crash out of the race rather than being the slowest guy on the track, and getting points?

It would indeed seem that for some (and this same line is being pushed in a few places) having a rider crash is more acceptable than having a rider finish the race and earn your team points, your manufacturer points and that rider himself points.

Guess that nobody races for points anymore

#22 · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Hahaha, no Rossi crashing last weekend does not prove the M1 was harder to ride.

I never said that. What I did say is that riding an M1 in the wet conditions at Assen on Sunday was trickier than riding a Ducati at a dry Qatar in 2012.

Spout all the arguments you like. To finish first you first have to finish. Lorenzo picked up 6 points and Rossi threw away 25.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

#22 said:
I never said that. What I did say is that riding an M1 in the wet conditions at Assen on Sunday was trickier than riding a Ducati at a dry Qatar in 2012.

Spout all the arguments you like. To finish first you first have to finish. Lorenzo picked up 6 points and Rossi threw away 25.

We'll have to agree to disagree that riding the M1 in the pouring rain at Assen was more difficult than riding the Duc in the dry at Qatar. As was already pointed out, the Duc frustrated Rossi since he didn't know exactly what the problem was. At Assen, Rossi said the conditions were bad (agreed with the red flag), but his pace and confidence were quite good and even better after the restart. He struggled worse on the Duc.

michaelm · Jun 29, 2016

This is nonsensical Paps, and also why people call you Talps, since he used to similarly take issue with posters on the basis of hypothetical situations and arguments they hadn't actually made.

If Rossi has a race like this and your opponents criticise him then you can take issue. He probably won't both because he is better in the wet and because he is close to being too far behind MM to adopt a conservative strategy.

If JL adopted this strategy 3 races from the end of the season again you could take issue. As it is now I think his strategy was the opposite of timidity, but rather reflected sheer bloody mindedness and a determination not to lose the championship again by injuring himself in wet conditions at this track, given he didn't think he could score sufficiently more points to justify taking a risk.

povol · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
No, I do not believe Jorge was pushing to the limit. I wouldn't expect him to say he wasn't giving 100%. He is being paid millions to ride to the best of his ability, not wise to admit he didn't... although I'm sure Yamaha knows the truth from looking at his data.

Because Qatar 2012 and Assen 2016 are very different.

After Rossi crashed out from pushing too hard, he said he made a stupid mistake. He knew people would criticize him for crashing. Lorenzo didn't give any effort, he DESERVES and should know he would get some criticism as well. So he got 6 lucky points, Rossi is only 18 points behind him. Lets not forget Lorenzo struggled in the dry at Catalunya and was going backwards when Iannone hit him. He goes to Assen and struggled as well. Germany is like a damn rainforest, good chance next race is wet again. It's JL fans that should be a bit concerned. Could be 3 straight bad rounds for JL.

As some predicted , Lorenzo's pace has gone to hell since his announcement. At some point, Yamaha will realize that Lorenzo is their best championship hope and back him no matter how bad they want Rossi to win.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

povol said:
As some predicted , Lorenzo's pace has gone to hell since his announcement. At some point, Yamaha will realize that Lorenzo is their best championship hope and back him no matter how bad they want Rossi to win.

Whoever made that prediction was wrong. Lorenzo announced his move to Ducati right before Jerez. Rossi won Jerez, but Lorenzo then won Le Mans & Mugello.

Lorenzo started struggling at Catalunya, but has given no indication that he feels he is not getting equal backing from Yamaha. They both tested a new chassis last weekend. I know Rossi turned it down and said he'll stick with the current chassis. I'm assuming Lorenzo turned it down as well since that was the chassis he was testing when he crashed in FP3.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 30, 2016

Moto VD, you have yet to answer my question - a straight yes or no will do. For the first time in his career, owing to a serious miscalculation and overestimation of his own abilities, in 2011 VR found himself on a disadvantaged ride. Would you accept that there were, by his own admission, occasions and races that he was similarly defeatist and simply gave up?

Assen 2016

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

yamfan

moto vudu

moto vudu

Gaz

Gaz

moto vudu

JPSLotus

JPSLotus

moto vudu

Gaz

paparazzo

WVMotoGP99

Gaz

Gaz

#22

moto vudu

michaelm

povol

moto vudu

Arrabbiata1

Blue Smoker

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions