Assen 2016

moto vudu · Jun 30, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Moto VD, you have yet to answer my question - a straight yes or no will do. For the first time in his career, owing to a serious miscalculation and overestimation of his own abilities, in 2011 VR found himself on a disadvantaged ride. Would you accept that there were, by his own admission, occasions and races that he was similarly defeatist and simply gave up?

No, nothing I've heard him say regarding his 2 years at Ducati is comparable to riding around in last place. I could see an argument for Rossi giving up on attempting to win a championship while at Ducati, but he didn't give up on earning points each race. All the motivation, determination, and effort in the world wasn't going to win a championship on that bike.

Rossi was obligated to ride the Ducati the best he could. Ducati was obligated to provide Rossi with the best bike they could. Who failed who more is up for debate, but I don't think any of us have enough inside information to make that determination.

Richy56 · Jun 30, 2016

paparazzo said:
Even if Jorge crashed it would be even worse, going 3-6 seconds slower laps an crasjing would mean he shouldn't be on the bike in wet conditions period. It is one thing to crash being the fastest rider on the track (proves you are pushing the limit) but crashing running 6 seconds slower does not mean he gave 'maximum' effort.

You keep bringing up 'he score points, he score points'. Jorge already said these points were as result of crashing riders (trying to actually push for position) than his absent wet riding talent. Never heard of top rider settling to run around close to last place begging for race to end, especially a world champion. The only time I remember any motorsport where driver gave up in wet was Prost 1989 Adelaide. Comical to see everyone look for excuse for Jorge, had this been Vale, oh boy you guys would have feast.

The limit is define by your faster teamate who is on the same equipment and tires. One would expect Jorge to be at least within reasonable range of Valentino. Even Tito Rabat was rarely slower than Jack Miller by more than 2 seconds, most laps were less than that. You and Gramps can try and spin this any way you like, even go back to 2012 with Rossi on the Ducati to justify Jorge's brutal performance. Does not change the fact that being many seconds/lap slower than the slowest satellite bike is unacceptable.

Is this post for real? Since when did crashing out of a race become better than scoring points?

Points means prizes. Most of the boys and girls on any motorcycling grid can go out there in the wet or dry push to the limit and fall off. Staying on in those conditions we saw on Sunday is the hard bit.

moto vudu · Jun 30, 2016

Redding earned some style points with this one.

Richy56 · Jun 30, 2016

Shame everyone's gone home

michaelm · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
No, nothing I've heard him say regarding his 2 years at Ducati is comparable to riding around in last place. I could see an argument for Rossi giving up on attempting to win a championship while at Ducati, but he didn't give up on earning points each race. All the motivation, determination, and effort in the world wasn't going to win a championship on that bike.

Rossi was obligated to ride the Ducati the best he could. Ducati was obligated to provide Rossi with the best bike they could. Who failed who more is up for debate, but I don't think any of us have enough inside information to make that determination.

Like DB on occasion, you are continuing to repeat the same thing. Several people have disagreed with you and given their reasons, and repetition of your view with no new arguments adds no strength to your case.

Again, imo Jorge thought the risk of injury from crashing out was a risk to his championship which outweighed the maximum possible benefit of the few extra points he may have gained by piushing harder. Criticise him for not achieving a better set-up, or for not being better in the wet if you like, although that still did not stop him winning a championship last year despite an unusual number of wet races. I can't see any reason why he should be in any way obliged to ride according to your expectations, or to those of Rossi fans in general, many of whom would have a preferred result of him crashing out. He made a tactical and strategic decision, and in actual reality rather than hypothetically his tactics proved superior to Rossi's, and his actual fans on here as opposed to those who dislike him and/or would like to see Rossi win the championship rather than him are happy with the choices he made. What part of this don't you understand?

moto vudu · Jun 30, 2016

michaelm said:
Like DB on occasion, you are continuing to repeat the same thing. Several people have disagreed with you and given their reasons, and repetition of your view with no new arguments adds no strength to your case.

Again, imo Jorge thought the risk of injury from crashing out was a greater risk to his championship than the few extra points he may have gained by piushing harder. Criticise him for not being better in the wet if you like, although that still did not stop him winning a championship last year despite an unusual number of wet races. I can't see any reason why he should be in any way obliged to ride according to your expectations, or to those of Rossi fans in general, many of whom would have a preferred result of him crashing out. He made a tactical and strategic decision, and in actual reality rather than hypothetically his tactics proved superior to Rossi's, and his actual fans on here as opposed to those who dislike him and/or would like to see Rossi win the championship rather than him are happy with the choices he made. What part of this don't you understand?

I was asked if Rossi at Ducati was "similarly defeatist and simply gave up" in comparison to Lorenzo at Assen. I responded to the question, my response wasn't even directed at you.

The comparison of Rossi at Ducati to Lorenzo on the M1 is terrible... just terrible, but I'm not the one who started it. Still, Rossi didn't protect himself from the risk of crashing on the Duc by riding at the back of the grid.

michaelm · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
I was asked if Rossi at Ducati was "similarly defeatist and simply gave up" in comparison to Lorenzo at Assen. I responded to the question, my response wasn't even directed at you.

The comparison of Rossi at Ducati to Lorenzo on the M1 is terrible... just terrible, but I'm not the one who started it. Still, Rossi didn't protect himself from the risk of crashing on the Duc by riding at the back of the grid.

I don't see it as such a bad comparison, there was a rider who had proved able to compete at the front of the field on the Ducati albeit at a high risk of crashing out, using a riding technique Rossi was unable or unwilling to replicate. It was widely opined on here during Rossi's Ducati years by Rossi fans, particularly J4rn0, possibly the most staunch, but imo also the most sensible, of your breed that Rossi wasn't prepared to run a high risk of crashing merely to advance 1 or 2 off podium positions, an opinion with which I agreed. He did push harder when he thought he had more chance, as exemplified to Casey Stoner's regret by Jerez 2011, with the Ducati more competitive in the wet or at least on Bridgestone wet tyres which were based on the old carcass co-developed with Ducati, or whatever.

Not very arguably Rossi had less excuse for not taking more risks on the Ducati given he was never in serious contention for a title on that bike as Jorge is currently and was at Assen.

Again "it's different because it is Rossi" seems to be your essential argument.

Gaz · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
I was asked if Rossi at Ducati was "similarly defeatist and simply gave up" in comparison to Lorenzo at Assen. I responded to the question, my response wasn't even directed at you.

The comparison of Rossi at Ducati to Lorenzo on the M1 is terrible... just terrible, but I'm not the one who started it. Still, Rossi didn't protect himself from the risk of crashing on the Duc by riding at the back of the grid.

Actually, no you weren't asked that.

Arrib asked 'Would you accept that there were, by his own admission, occasions and races that he was similarly defeatist and simply gave up?' and in the entire post where he raised the question he did not mention Lorenzo.

His question was not regarding JL at all but VR and his Ducati tenure, a tenure that is looked upon as somewhat defining for Rossi and no doubt by Rossi himself, is looked on as a failure (and yes, no doubt he would say differently but that is lip service as his competitive nature would define the years as failed)

aaronl · Jun 30, 2016

Can't fault Lorenzo really, must hate the track with a passion. A real "get it over with quick" weekend.

It may have just felt right to get on the bike and get the day done with. Stay on and do not get hurt. I actually thought he may pit and just get off shaking his head, but obviously he would have seen the down riders everywhere and had pit boards stating so, circulating the track and by sheer luck winding up in the points had to be the better option.

A lot of the time during 2012 and late season 2011, Rossi most certainly looked to be on cruise control. Another "just get it over with" point in time.

J4rn0 · Jun 30, 2016

Somehow I like Lorenzo's honesty when he says he couldn't go faster. That "lack of front end feeling" is something no rider has been able to overcome, with the notable exception of Stoner -- and even in his case not without visible risk and stress.

In this case, since Lorenzo was riding a Yamaha and not a Ducati GP11 or GP12, the problem must have been caused by the tires, aggravated by his peculiar style, maybe a dislike for Assen, and finally the wet conditions. The Michelin slicks have improved, but it seems that the rain version has not progressed as much.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
I could see an argument for Rossi giving up on attempting to win a championship while at Ducati, but he didn't give up on earning points each race.

He didn't give up on earning points at each race...

Do you maintain that this was always the maximum amount of points possible? - or perhaps that there were occasions during his unfortunate tenure at Ducati that for whatever reason he was not pushing as hard as he could, instead adopting a policy of riding for a predetermined position? In other words, cruising.

povol · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
No, nothing I've heard him say regarding his 2 years at Ducati is comparable to riding around in last place. I could see an argument for Rossi giving up on attempting to win a championship while at Ducati, but he didn't give up on earning points each race. All the motivation, determination, and effort in the world wasn't going to win a championship on that bike.

Rossi was obligated to ride the Ducati the best he could. Ducati was obligated to provide Rossi with the best bike they could. Who failed who more is up for debate, but I don't think any of us have enough inside information to make that determination.

And he didnt. He admitted that he was not going to push the Ducati for what he thought were meaningless positions. That is not doing the best he could. I agreed with his assessment but when boppers want to push some fantasy agenda, i will be glad to point out Rossi's even more serious flaws.

povol · Jun 30, 2016

Richy56 said:
Is this post for real? Since when did crashing out of a race become better than scoring points?

Points means prizes. Most of the boys and girls on any motorcycling grid can go out there in the wet or dry push to the limit and fall off. Staying on in those conditions we saw on Sunday is the hard bit.

You have to understand the mentality first, then you can go about trying to make sense of the babble.

Richy56 · Jun 30, 2016

Not interested in understanding it, cos it makes absolutley no sense

michaelm · Jun 30, 2016

povol said:
And he didnt. He admitted that he was not going to push the Ducati for what he thought were meaningless positions. That is not doing the best he could. I agreed with his assessment but when boppers want to push some fantasy agenda, i will be glad to point out Rossi's even more serious flaws.

I agree, including that Rossi's approach was not unreasonable. I think Rossi wasn't prepared to risk injury on a treacherous bike for a 5th rather than a 6th, particularly having just come off the first injury to have significantly affected his career, the fractured leg which took him out of contention for the 2010 championship. I think Jorge actually was in a similar position for this 1 particular race, he hadn't managed a good set-up, the tyre, track and conditions made riding treacherous for him with his particular riding style regardless of whether other Yamaha riders were better suited by them (Bradley Smith finished 3 laps down, and both he and Pol were behind Miller at the time of the red flag), and his best hope if he pushed was getting only a few points as against crash and injury which he had already experienced on this very track on a quite likely better rain tyre.

JohnnyKnockdown · Jun 30, 2016

The guy that basically raced on his his hospital gurney is a cowardly quitter.
....... Genius.
Dub, who's in the lead for ...... of the Year Award? Moto Vacancy or Douscheboy

JPSLotus · Jun 30, 2016

michaelm said:
I agree, including that Rossi's approach was not unreasonable. I think Rossi wasn't prepared to risk injury on a treacherous bike for a 5th rather than a 6th, particularly having just come off the first injury to have significantly affected his career, the fractured leg which took him out of contention for the 2010 championship. I think Jorge actually was in a similar position for this 1 particular race, he hadn't managed a good set-up, the tyre, track and conditions made riding treacherous for him with his particular riding style regardless of whether other Yamaha riders were better suited by them (Bradley Smith finished 3 laps down, and both he and Pol were behind Miller at the time of the red flag), and his best hope if he pushed was getting only a few points as against crash and injury which he had already experienced on this very track on a quite likely better rain tyre.

I think it also highlights the chasm in ability between Stoner and everyone else in that Stoner was always willing to push to the absolute limit regardless of what he was riding even if said bike was not providing the feel. He said as much in an interview that he was never concerned about the safety of racing motorcycles or crashing and it had no influence on his choice to retire. One could debate the relative merits of the approach Stoner had to ride the wheels off of the Ducati with it's lack of front end feel, but from a fan perspective, it was certainly a joy to watch.

JPSLotus · Jun 30, 2016

moto vudu said:
Probably, but his quote popped in my head when discussing the dangers of motorsport.

The problem with Senna is he was a danger on the track to other drivers, and his ham-fisted approach of going for gaps also cost him a number of races due to avoidable collisions. He cost McLaren their perfect season at Monza 1988 when he failed to negotiate a backmarker because he felt pressured to make a boneheaded move at the Rettifilio Chicane. Had he waited to overtake the Williams of Schlesser at the Curva Grande or even the della Roggia he'd have won the grand prix most likely.

JPSLotus · Jun 30, 2016

Gaz said:
A great example of just why the rain lights are so important in today's motorsports (and not having a go at you as you and Dani both recognised the risk, others did not)

I don't think Rossi/Yamaha should have been let off so easily as regardless of whether it was a technical fault or not. Showing the black flag with orange circle was more than justifiable, and should have been done. It tells me though that race direction aren't paying much attention to what goes on and that their commitment to safety is still a joke. I'm not a fan of this ........ approach Race Direction takes with Rossi where safety matters are excusable because of who he is. It's blatant favoritism as usual.

#22 · Jun 30, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I think it also highlights the chasm in ability between Stoner and everyone else in that Stoner was always willing to push to the absolute limit regardless of what he was riding even if said bike was not providing the feel. He said as much in an interview that he was never concerned about the safety of racing motorcycles or crashing and it had no influence on his choice to retire. One could debate the relative merits of the approach Stoner had to ride the wheels off of the Ducati with it's lack of front end feel, but from a fan perspective, it was certainly a joy to watch.

I've said for a long time that Stoner has probably the most raw talent to ride a bike I've ever seen. You could put that guy on a shopping trolley and he'd be a contender.

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