Assen 2016

#22 said:

I've said for a long time that Stoner has probably the most raw talent to ride a bike I've ever seen. You could put that guy on a shopping trolley and he'd be a contender.

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Indeed.

I think the issue here is more that bagging on Lorenzo for playing it safe is asinine, when The Doctor was doing the same thing during his Ducati Adventure. I really don't understand how people could actually be advocating that a rider should run the risk of crashing out of a race just so a select group of people could actually feel comfortable knowing he was, DURRRRRRRRRRR GIVING IT 100% LIKE A REAL MAN DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Most riders at this level, while immensely talented, cannot out-ride a lack of, or complete absence of front end feel including the supposed GOAT. One rider in recent time was able to do so, but it doesn't mean everyone else can or should even attempt to do it at the risk of injury or not scoring any points just so they can prove they were pushing to the peanut gallery.

Gaz said:

Actually, no you weren't asked that.

Arrib asked 'Would you accept that there were, by his own admission, occasions and races that he was similarly defeatist and simply gave up?' and in the entire post where he raised the question he did not mention Lorenzo.

His question was not regarding JL at all but VR and his Ducati tenure, a tenure that is looked upon as somewhat defining for Rossi and no doubt by Rossi himself, is looked on as a failure (and yes, no doubt he would say differently but that is lip service as his competitive nature would define the years as failed)

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That is failed comprehension on your part. Who do you think he was referring to when he said "similarly defeatist"? Similar to who? The comparison is Rossi vs Lorenzo.

Arrabbiata1 said:

He didn't give up on earning points at each race...

Do you maintain that this was always the maximum amount of points possible? - or perhaps that there were occasions during his unfortunate tenure at Ducati that for whatever reason he was not pushing as hard as he could, instead adopting a policy of riding for a predetermined position? In other words, cruising.

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No, I do not maintain it was always the maximum amount of points. Some posted that Rossi said he wouldn't always risk going for 6th place instead of 8th. The that is still NOT the same as riding in last place. Lorenzo was riding for NO points. For me, that is unheard of! Stoner never did it, Rossi never did it, MM never and will never do it. Only Lorenzo has.

Listen, hats off to Lorenzo for accomplishing his goal of not getting hurt. I don't think he should have pushed to the point it was likely he would crash. I just have an opinion that his riding ability is good enough that he's capable of riding safely (very little risk of crashing due to error on his part) while maintaining a position in the points. People disagree with me and that's fine.

JPSLotus said:

Indeed.

I think the issue here is more that bagging on Lorenzo for playing it safe is asinine, when The Doctor was doing the same thing during his Ducati Adventure. I really don't understand how people could actually be advocating that a rider should run the risk of crashing out of a race just so a select group of people could actually feel comfortable knowing he was, DURRRRRRRRRRR GIVING IT 100% LIKE A REAL MAN DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Most riders at this level, while immensely talented, cannot out-ride a lack of, or complete absence of front end feel including the supposed GOAT. One rider in recent time was able to do so, but it doesn't mean everyone else can or should even attempt to do it at the risk of injury or not scoring any points just so they can prove they were pushing to the peanut gallery.

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Lorenzo played it so safe that he was fine with not scoring points. That's the same as NOT racing at all. Please, provide me with an example of a healthy Rossi staying in the pits and just skipping a race to "play it safe". Give an example of him playing it so safe that he made no attempt finish a race in the points without depending on riders in front of him crashing. Even on the Ducati with no front end feel, he would ride it in the points.

Nobody is saying Lorenzo needed to overcome front end issues and attempt to win at all costs. Who thinks he was the only rider on track with vague front end feel while riding through standing water? You think he was the only one? He was the ONLY one that put forth MINIMUM effort.

Respect for Lorenzo: -1
Respect for every other rider on the grid: +1

Gentlemen, he's going to need to push the limits if he has any chance to win on the Ducati. If he's thinking about ensuring he wont get hurt so much he will ride in last place... he should be having some major second thoughts about his career move.

moto vudu said:

Gentlemen, he's going to need to push the limits if he has any chance to win on the Ducati.

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On the other hand, he could take an alternative but familiar approach and ride entirely within his comfort zone perhaps hoping to be parachuted back on to an M1 when the time is right.

Arrabbiata1 said:

On the other hand, he could take an alternative but familiar approach and ride entirely within his comfort zone perhaps hoping to be parachuted back on to an M1 when the time is right.

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All those times Rossi busted his ... on the Duc, how many of those crashes do you think occurred while he was simply riding in his comfort zone?

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo played it so safe that he was fine with not scoring points. That's the same as NOT racing at all. Please, provide me with an example of a healthy Rossi staying in the pits and just skipping a race to "play it safe". Give an example of him playing it so safe that he made no attempt finish a race in the points without depending on riders in front of him crashing. Even on the Ducati with no front end feel, he would ride it in the points.

Nobody is saying Lorenzo needed to overcome front end issues and attempt to win at all costs. Who thinks he was the only rider on track with vague front end feel while riding through standing water? You think he was the only one? He was the ONLY one that put forth MINIMUM effort.

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Did Lorenzo stay in the pits and skip the race Sunday?

BTW, Stoner ran over 100 laps yesterday and today.

He tested two different Desmo's.

He will also be running again apparently at the Red Bull Ring July 19-21 alongside with the rest of the teams.

Casey Stoner was left "exhausted" follow the completion of his latest MotoGP test outing at Misano, according to Ducati.

The Australian, who on Wednesday ran alongside test rider Michele Pirro, covered over 100 laps during the two days (60 on Wednesday and a few less on Thursday).

And, according to the Italian team's communication department, Stoner "was exhausted after not having been on the bike for so long".

The 2007 world champion had two Desmosedici GP bikes at his disposal during his third test appearance of the season, following his outings at Sepang in February and Qatar in March.

With them and with the support from the test team, Stoner worked on different set-ups and tried the available parts, both on the chassis as well as the electronics side.

Stoner will stay at Misano during the weekend, when Ducati will host the Ducati Week, from Friday to Sunday.

It is expected that Stoner will ride again during testing at the Red Bull Ring on July 19-21, when he will run alongside the rest of the MotoGP teams except Honda.

Stoner "exhausted" after completing Misano test

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JPSLotus said:

Did Lorenzo stay in the pits and skip the race Sunday?

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He might as well have (he admitted was considering returns to the pits before the red flag came out). Staying in the pits and riding in last place is the same 0 points. I know, he got 6 points but that's all hindsight. He didn't know enough riders would crash to put him in the points. Staying in the pits would've been better to ensure he didn't get hurt.

moto vudu said:

He might as well have (he admitted was considering returns to the pits before the red flag came out). Staying in the pits and riding in last place is the same 0 points. I know, he got 6 points but that's all hindsight. He didn't know enough riders would crash to put him in the points. Staying in the pits would've been better to ensure he didn't get hurt.

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He went out there for the second race not knowing if he would score any points. Imagine that, he still went out there to grind it out regardless of not knowing what the outcome would be. Turned out to be a good move. Here's the bigger issue, you're taking offense over him saying he thought about calling it a day before the red flag came out. He never followed through on the thought.

Listen bro, how many times do you think about doing something, but don't actually follow through?

What counts is what you actually did or did not do.

If thinking were a criminal offense, how many people would be in jail for murder? You're engaging in some real Minority Report .... where apparently Lorenzo even having a thought of withdrawing from the race is worthy of conviction. You don't think racers at large sometimes have these thoughts in the middle of a race that is going absolute ....?

JPSLotus said:

He went out there for the second race not knowing if he would score any points. Imagine that, he still went out there to grind it out regardless of not knowing what the outcome would be. Turned out to be a good move. Here's the bigger issue, you're taking offense over him saying he thought about calling it a day before the red flag came out. He never followed through on the thought.

Listen bro, how many times do you think about doing something, but don't actually follow through?

What counts is what you actually did or did not do.

If thinking were a criminal offense, how many people would be in jail for murder? You're engaging in some real Minority Report .... where apparently Lorenzo even having a thought of withdrawing from the race is worthy of conviction. You don't think racers at large sometimes have these thoughts in the middle of a race that is going absolute ....?

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No, my criticism was aimed more at him not fighting for a single point, but just waiting for them to be awarded through crashes.

The criticism of him for Assen has likely gone too far, he hasn't established a pattern so it's an isolated incident. But you know how things go when you get on a roll and people keep feeding the fire.

moto vudu said:

No, my criticism was aimed more at him not fighting for a single point, but just waiting for them to be awarded through crashes.

The criticism of him for Assen has likely gone too far, he hasn't established a pattern so it's an isolated incident. But you know how things go when you get on a roll and people keep feeding the fire.

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“It's not that I was just going quiet. I was pushing in braking, pushing in acceleration and pushing in the middle of the corner. But the bike was giving me warnings in all the areas,” he said. “If you are slow and getting all the warnings then you can crash. Even if I was slow I wasn't safe and I think it's maybe the front.

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He was trying to push the bike, but it wasn't resulting in him seeing positive results on the circuit as would normally be the case.

JPSLotus said:

He went out there for the second race not knowing if he would score any points. Imagine that, he still went out there to grind it out regardless of not knowing what the outcome would be. Turned out to be a good move. Here's the bigger issue, you're taking offense over him saying he thought about calling it a day before the red flag came out. He never followed through on the thought.

Listen bro, how many times do you think about doing something, but don't actually follow through?

What counts is what you actually did or did not do.

If thinking were a criminal offense, how many people would be in jail for murder? You're engaging in some real Minority Report .... where apparently Lorenzo even having a thought of withdrawing from the race is worthy of conviction. You don't think racers at large sometimes have these thoughts in the middle of a race that is going absolute ....?

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I've raced in hail and battering rain, fell off, broke down and thought about packing in. But didn't.....isn't that the same as Lorenzo at MotoGP level. He is just been honest.

Just cos he thought it don't mean he is going to do it. Yes he was slow, but the guy was hanging when he crashed in 2013, he snapped it again in Germany a few weeks later, then nearly won the championship, I say give the bloke a ....... break

Can we sum up and say then that rossi was trying so hard, putting in the most effort ever and got zero points. And Lorenzo was taking it easy just slacking off at every corner etc ...... couldnt really be bothered trying ........ and got 6 points.


Is it all too hard for rossi nowadays?

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo played it so safe that he was fine with not scoring points. That's the same as NOT racing at all. Please, provide me with an example of a healthy Rossi staying in the pits and just skipping a race to "play it safe". Give an example of him playing it so safe that he made no attempt finish a race in the points without depending on riders in front of him crashing. Even on the Ducati with no front end feel, he would ride it in the points.

Nobody is saying Lorenzo needed to overcome front end issues and attempt to win at all costs. Who thinks he was the only rider on track with vague front end feel while riding through standing water? You think he was the only one? He was the ONLY one that put forth MINIMUM effort.

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Again, all you are doing is repeating yourself. Why does your assessment of how he could or should have ridden supervene his own? To repeat myself he has won 3 world championships, and is still well in contention for this one, crashing out and injuring himself would likely have ended his championship hopes, getting 6 rather than 8 points won't. More to the point, you may not have noticed but the race was actually red-flagged because RD assessed the conditions as too severe to allow the race to continue. In his particular circumstances he made a similar assessment earlier than RD did, and on the evidence of the race results his assessment was better than all the riders who crashed out at the very least.

If he made such an assessment in every race then obviously he would be finished as a rider, but he doesn't, as his record and even his current standing in this year's title demonstrate. Perhaps as J4rn0 posted you should be directing criticism at Michelin's rain tyre, given every rider in the field crashed at some stage over the weekend, including JL himself who hence lined up on the grid somewhat banged up, rather proving I would have thought that his concern regarding crashing and sustaining injury was hardly merely theoretical.

To further repeat myself, why does he need to meet the expectations of those such as you who are not even his fans? I would argue that there is not even much point in him riding to impress Yamaha, given 43 race wins, more than a few in quite dominant fashion, and 3 titles including the title most recently decided have apparently failed to do that leading to him signing elsewhere for next year.

I do agree there is not much sign of Yamaha not supporting him bike-wise since his decision to leave. I would turn your contention about the effect of a putative 3rd successive bad race result for JL back on you however. Perhaps as few as 2 more finishes behind both MM and JL in the next 2 races would make Rossi's chances of beating MM at least rather marginal, and might force Yamaha to back Jorge as their only realistic chance of winning the riders' title.

From Misano today...



It's funny, even though he rode the Repsol Honda for 2 years, and that LCR in his first year, the Ducati is the only bike he ever looked perfectly at home on.

moto vudu said:

That is failed comprehension on your part. Who do you think he was referring to when he said "similarly defeatist"? Similar to who? The comparison is Rossi vs Lorenzo.

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Not failed comprehension at all as I do have suspicions as to whom he was referring to as your attacks on Lorenzo were well documented, but just as at times you wish to be pedantic so can others and again, up until this post you have not answered the specific question have you (not the first specific question you have politically answered)?

moto vudu said:

No, I do not maintain it was always the maximum amount of points. Some posted that Rossi said he wouldn't always risk going for 6th place instead of 8th. The that is still NOT the same as riding in last place. Lorenzo was riding for NO points. For me, that is unheard of! Stoner never did it, Rossi never did it, MM never and will never do it. Only Lorenzo has.

Listen, hats off to Lorenzo for accomplishing his goal of not getting hurt. I don't think he should have pushed to the point it was likely he would crash. I just have an opinion that his riding ability is good enough that he's capable of riding safely (very little risk of crashing due to error on his part) while maintaining a position in the points. People disagree with me and that's fine.

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It is the same as that which you stated

You accused Lorenzo of not giving MAXIMUM effort and yet you accept that VR at times may not or did not provide maximum effort, but as is usual with colour blinded individuals they struggle to see the similarity and instead see difference

moto vudu said:

Lorenzo played it so safe that he was fine with not scoring points. That's the same as NOT racing at all. Please, provide me with an example of a healthy Rossi staying in the pits and just skipping a race to "play it safe". Give an example of him playing it so safe that he made no attempt finish a race in the points without depending on riders in front of him crashing. Even on the Ducati with no front end feel, he would ride it in the points.

Nobody is saying Lorenzo needed to overcome front end issues and attempt to win at all costs. Who thinks he was the only rider on track with vague front end feel while riding through standing water? You think he was the only one? He was the ONLY one that put forth MINIMUM effort.

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Did Lorenzo stay in the pits?

I could have sworn that I saw him circulating around .........

Yes he said that he could have easily pulled in to the pits but saying and doing are two different things

In the end, his attitude of safety first earnt him 6 points which many riders would happily have taken

moto vudu said:

Respect for Lorenzo: -1
Respect for every other rider on the grid: +1

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Hater

moto vudu said:

All those times Rossi busted his ... on the Duc, how many of those crashes do you think occurred while he was simply riding in his comfort zone?

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No he didn't and he has said so himself that he was not going to push and fall.

JB has even said so ........... actually it was JB who first called him on it