Assen 2016

povol · Jun 29, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
But would you accept that there were, by his own admission, occasions and races that he was similarly defeatist and simply gave up?

For 90% of 2012, Rossi was on cruise control. He even said he wasnt going to push the Ducati in hopes of finishing 6th over finishing 8th as it just wasnt worth it. He did not give Ducati full effort so in essence he quit.

Keshav · Jun 29, 2016

povol said:
Nothing MM did was dangerous, it was clean hard racing. The only dangerous rider was Rossi when he lost his mind as he knew the title was slipping away.

The rule calls for the rider to receive the black and orange flag when an obvious safety violation has occurred. That was an obvious safety violation as they stopped the race because of the amounts of rain. Biblical i believe is the term i think was used in describing the amount of rain and horrendous as the conditions. From Motogp website

Black Flag with Orange Disc
This flag informs the rider that their motorcycle has mechanical problems, which are likely to endanger themselves or others, and they must immediately leave the track.

I loved Jorge's performance as he stretched his lead over Rossi. You think Rossi would like to have those 6 points today, or the fans adoration that he looked good crashing, never mind, he probably would rather have the sheep oohing and ahhing about how fast he was as he tossed it down the road. Hell, any one can go out and ride over their talent level and crash.

Funnily enough, now that the emotional reaction to that race has evaporated - I have to admit that my opinion about that race has "evolved". It took a while and the thing that really changed my mind was re-watching the race between Stoner and Rossi at Laguna. Rossi didn't have the motor to get by Stoner and his only available tactic was to continually block pass Stoner - which in the purest sense (to my mind) is not proper racing but in retrospect, it was as legit as the tactics that MM used at Sepang. The objective of the two riders was IMHO - different - but the racing was equally legal, and when I think on it - Rossi was essentially getting back a bit of his own medicine at Sepang. I have to think Stoner must have had a few chuckles while watching that race.

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
He has adoration from the fans because in difficult conditions he gave maximum effort. Nobody should ever feel ashamed of giving maximum effort even if it ends in failure. He knows what he did wrong, learned from the mistake, and will not make the same mistake again.

Lorenzo didn't put forth anywhere near the effort. He picked up 6 points because enough riders in front of him crashed out. By riding in last place, he had made a decision to not earn ANY points and was very close to returning to the pits. That's just not something we typically see from a rider of his caliber. Sure, riding carefully to salvage points is common, but top riders on top machinery will at least stay in points earning positions.

Has Lorenzo improved his abilities in the wet in Assen? He didn't push himself so he got nothing in return that will make him a better rider in tricky conditions. His damp/wet riding skill set is at the same level it was when he arrived at the circuit, whereas his rivals (even those that crashed) learned and got even better.

See MV, this is where inner bopperism or seeming malcontent for JL shows (let each pick their own description).

You say that VR's fans are comfortable that he crashed as he gave maximum effort ............ ok, cool I can accept that and see your background for the comment

You then seemingly criticise JL who gave HIS MAXIMUM EFFORT within the circumstances because in your opinion his MAXIMUM effort should have been greater.

You return point will likely be that VR showed the level of maximum effort, which if so means that to appease people than JL should have crashed whilst trying to achieve the levels of VR's maximum effort.

JL may not have ridden to your level of satisfaction, and dare I say to many's level of satisfaction but at the end of the day his MAXIMUM effort produced 6 points for his tally whilst the MAXIMUM effort of some others (not just VR here) produced a big fat 0 in points.

I am sure as I have said a number of times that at years end that 6 points could be worth a lot more than the 0 scored by others (let us not forget once again, last years title was decided by 5 points) so to me, JL gave the maximum to which he was capable on the day. That is all one can ask is it not, do the best that you have on any given day and let the results fall into place (or as was the case on the weekend, let others fall to give you the result)

To finish first, first one must finish .............. he did that

michaelm · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
You already know I do not have an issue taking the troll bait. We have 3 weeks to kill before Saschsenring and good debates makes the time pass quicker.

The circumstances involved with contemplating retiring from the race are not the same. Rossi, starting a new season after struggling all of 2011 was trying to be optimistic that the new tires and changes will help him in 2012. He had a disaster weekend, but the key was HE WAS TRYING! As bad as Qatar 2012 was for him, he still gave more effort than Lorenzo did last weekend and we cannot ignore the performance potential of Rossi's Duc compared to Lorenzo's M1.

Why don't you go for more concision and just post "it's different because it is Rossi" every post?

This is like your arguments about Stoner's retirement. I enjoy people trolling, but this is a particularly weak effort. Why is Jorge due more criticism for riding to conserve his championship chances by not injuring himself at a track where he previously has done exactly that than Rossi is for not trying when he had no championship to lose? Apparently so as not to disappoint Rossi fans many of whom would cheer if he crashed while his own fans are happy to see him get through Assen uninjured and still in strong championship contention with 10 races to go. Rossi actually rode stupidly by his own admission, and I strongly suspect his own motivation was to improve his position in the championship rather than to put on a riding exhibition to show how fast he could be in the wet.

yamfan · Jun 29, 2016

Bet Rossi is regretting accepting Marquez's handshake offer now he's trailing him by so many points. He'll have to think of another reason to fall out with him and continue with the mind games. Jorge's support from Yamaha is bound to dwindle as the season goes on, Rossi will see to that for sure. Marquez is the biggest threat to Rossi's 10th title that he so craves.

birdman · Jun 29, 2016

yamfan said:
Lorenzo specifically and honestly stated that whilst his performance was terrible, he was pushing as hard as he dared and his bike was giving him warning signals that it was about to crash all the time. He did consider pulling in but decided to continue to try and improve his wet weather riding skills or lack of.
He didn't mention the crash he had, but it's possible he was hurting more than he let on and genuinely didn't want to crash again and worsen any condition he already had.
Rossi has huge experience on Michelins and made a rookie mistake by pushing so hard on tyres he knows give little or no warning at all when they're on the limits, it's a feature of Michelins since the '80s. Many riders then preferred the Dunlops because they gave slightly less outright grip but much more feeling and warning than the Michelins.
Marquez showed a mature side, letting Rossi go because he knew he'd crash following at that pace. He must've been chuckling in his helmet at the sight of Rossi in the kitty litter as he extended his lead in the title race.

I thought Lorenzo said all that was needed to understand the situation.

Specifically, when he checked the front tire after the first part of the race, it was like new, no wear at all. Maybe its too well disguised to recognize, but to me "like new" means its a hard tire for the conditions. What does Lorenzo prefer, well its obvious, soft tires, to suit his sweeping style, he needs feedback.

I remember Lorenzo dominated a race in the wet in 2012 and after the race Stoner, who finished 3rd, said his rain tires were shot after 5 laps. Lorenzo, with his style, made better use of the same soft tires.

Again, this year in pre-season testing, I guess with the goal of Michelin being to show they could match Bridgestone, soft tires were rolled out at the Sepang test. Lorenzo absolutely crushed it, and it was immediately predicted on here he just ...... himself. Those tires would now disappear.

Fast forward to Assen, and I say the number of front end wash outs should raise questions, like why were they running such hard tires for the conditions? The answer is easy, which rider prefers what. Makes no difference how hard Lorenzo "tries".

michaelm · Jun 29, 2016

I actually begin to think Lorenzo is smarter than Rossi.

Perhaps he does have a mental problem with the track, but for whatever reason he couldn't find a set-up for these conditions with the tyres available, and nor could many other riders given the number of riders who crashed out. That was the problem, he couldn't change his set-up or tyres mid race before the red flag, and did ride a little better in the second race on different tyres.

Mid race in these conditions is not the time to try to develop a new riding style. He has shown he can push harder in the wet in any case as he did unwisely at Misano last year when doing so rather than taking 3rd cost him a net 17 points, and without that judgement error the late season brouhaha would very likely not have occurred, and he ran out of tyres rather than preparedness to push after leading Rossi for most of the Suzuka 2015 race.

birdman · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Quote:

A downbeat Valentino Rossi conceded that at present he simply cannot get to grips with the 2012 Ducati after struggling to 10th place in the Qatar Grand Prix.

The seven-time MotoGP champion was a long way off the pace throughout the Losail weekend, and could not match team-mate Nicky Hayden's pace.

While Rossi said an earlier clash with Hector Barbera was a factor in his Qatar result, he admitted that the biggest problem was that the bike did not suit him at all.

"I had big problems at the beginning of the race: when we are on new tyres I struggle under braking," he told Italian broadcaster Mediaset. "On top of that, I lost four or five seconds after coming together with Barbera. I then managed to improve a bit and on the last lap I even managed to set my quickest lap on worn tyres. But it's useless, we struggle to be competitive.

"I can't ride this bike, I can't make the difference, I can't even keep up with Hayden's pace, who I used to go quick against in comparison. In theory, with new tyres I should go quicker. Nicky managed to do a good race with the other works Ducati, but he still ended up only sixth."

Rossi fears that 2012 could end up being even harder than last year, when he took just one podium finish.

"In Jerez testing it went better, sixth with the quicker tyres," he said. "But that's our pace, it's not an attractive objective to be fighting for sixth place. We are used to better objectives.

"Probably we are going worse than last year because we managed to be seventh back then... What can I say? I want to be frank. I can't ride this bike well, even in comparison with my fellow Ducati riders.

"This Ducati has problems: I gave indications over where to intervene, but we didn't solve our problems. Unfortunately I'm no engineer and can't do anything about it. At least the positive aspect is that I don't crash with this chassis. That's something at least."

The Italian added that he was finding it hard to be optimistic as Ducati had failed to progress from a disappointing start in 2011.

"We ran out of hope last year. More than hope we need a better bike," Rossi said. "But I wouldn't want to expose myself like I did last year, by thinking and hoping that the second chassis development would be an improvement.

"I tried to be a professional. When Barbera pushed me out I even considered returning to the pits, but then I stayed out in order to give our technicians some data to study so as to improve things."

Thanks for that. For future reference, can a rider say this and at the same time be considered the GOAT? GOAT, as in All Time. Well at this time Rossi is not the Greatest rider, by his own admission. I even noticed in the piece they have him only as 7 times. Time for a lol.

Now this goes well with another post you dug up with Burgess talking about how they were the pioneers of track mapping the engine electronics back in the 990 days. That was priceless, Burgess even says with some pride I might add, while the other riders were struggling around the track Rossi was doing it all much easier with the engine putting out the perfect amount of power. And then we had the myth about how Rossi hates electronics, and riders only beast him with use of electronics. The reverse was true, another lol.

#22 · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
As bad as Qatar 2012 was for him, he still gave more effort than Lorenzo did last weekend and we cannot ignore the performance potential of Rossi's Duc compared to Lorenzo's M1.

How can you quantify that? As bad as the 2012 Ducati was, it sure was easier to ride at a dry track in Qatar than the M1 was last Sunday. The fact Rossi fell from the lead proves that.

moto vudu said:
In his own words he contemplated retiring from the race (after he collided with Barbera), but he stayed out and kept pushing to provide data for the team.

Arrab has already covered it, but again how can you say he was pushing?

moto vudu said:
The evidence that he kept pushing didn't come from his quote, but from the results of the race. After colliding with Barbera he went off track, but continued to race maintaining a position in the points.

10th Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha 12 +27.604

Last time I checked, 10th was a points finishing position. So Just as your hero in Qatar 2012, Lorenzo continued to race maintaining a position in the points.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

povol said:
Dude, he might have got a bad result, but how many times does he have to say, i couldnt go any faster as the front felt like it was going to let loose if a pushed any harder. Mental or mechanical, he was going as fast as he could. Assen is his bogey track, everybody has one. If it was dry at the next race and he was running 19th, that might be something to discuss, but until he shows a pattern of running outside the top 3-4, im going give him a pass.

Gaz said:
See MV, this is where inner bopperism or seeming malcontent for JL shows (let each pick their own description).

You say that VR's fans are comfortable that he crashed as he gave maximum effort ............ ok, cool I can accept that and see your background for the comment

You then seemingly criticise JL who gave HIS MAXIMUM EFFORT within the circumstances because in your opinion his MAXIMUM effort should have been greater.

You return point will likely be that VR showed the level of maximum effort, which if so means that to appease people than JL should have crashed whilst trying to achieve the levels of VR's maximum effort.

JL may not have ridden to your level of satisfaction, and dare I say to many's level of satisfaction but at the end of the day his MAXIMUM effort produced 6 points for his tally whilst the MAXIMUM effort of some others (not just VR here) produced a big fat 0 in points.

I am sure as I have said a number of times that at years end that 6 points could be worth a lot more than the 0 scored by others (let us not forget once again, last years title was decided by 5 points) so to me, JL gave the maximum to which he was capable on the day. That is all one can ask is it not, do the best that you have on any given day and let the results fall into place (or as was the case on the weekend, let others fall to give you the result)

To finish first, first one must finish .............. he did that

No, I do not believe Jorge was pushing to the limit. I wouldn't expect him to say he wasn't giving 100%. He is being paid millions to ride to the best of his ability, not wise to admit he didn't... although I'm sure Yamaha knows the truth from looking at his data.

michaelm said:
Why don't you go for more concision and just post "it's different because it is Rossi" every post?

This is like your arguments about Stoner's retirement. I enjoy people trolling, but this is a particularly weak effort. Why is Jorge due more criticism for riding to conserve his championship chances by not injuring himself at a track where he previously has done exactly that than Rossi is for not trying when he had no championship to lose? Apparently so as not to disappoint Rossi fans many of whom would cheer if he crashed while his own fans are happy to see him get through Assen uninjured and still in strong championship contention with 10 races to go. Rossi actually rode stupidly by his own admission, and I strongly suspect his own motivation was to improve his position in the championship rather than to put on a riding exhibition to show how fast he could be in the wet.

Because Qatar 2012 and Assen 2016 are very different.

After Rossi crashed out from pushing too hard, he said he made a stupid mistake. He knew people would criticize him for crashing. Lorenzo didn't give any effort, he DESERVES and should know he would get some criticism as well. So he got 6 lucky points, Rossi is only 18 points behind him. Lets not forget Lorenzo struggled in the dry at Catalunya and was going backwards when Iannone hit him. He goes to Assen and struggled as well. Germany is like a damn rainforest, good chance next race is wet again. It's JL fans that should be a bit concerned. Could be 3 straight bad rounds for JL.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

#22 said:
How can you quantify that? As bad as the 2012 Ducati was, it sure was easier to ride at a dry track in Qatar than the M1 was last Sunday. The fact Rossi fell from the lead proves that.

Arrab has already covered it, but again how can you say he was pushing?

Last time I checked, 10th was a points finishing position. So Just as your hero in Qatar 2012, Lorenzo continued to race maintaining a position in the points.

Hahaha, no Rossi crashing last weekend does not prove the M1 was harder to ride. Rossi crashed only because he failed to adjust his braking point for turn 10 to compensate for the extra speed he was carrying (thanks to switching to the soft rear) after getting a better drive out of turn 9. He wasn't having a hard time and he said his confidence was even better after the restart.

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
No, I do not believe Jorge was pushing to the limit. I wouldn't expect him to say he wasn't giving 100%. He is being paid millions to ride to the best of his ability, not wise to admit he didn't... although I'm sure Yamaha knows the truth from looking at his data.

You see, here is the crus - who determines the limit?

If it was VR's performance that JL is vindicated because VR fell.

If it is you (or fans like yourself who feel he could have done better) defining the limit, then on what basis do you do this or what qualifications do you possess that allows you to make a better judgement than the rider himself?

Yes he is being paid millions but again you are assuming that he DID NOT ride to the BEST of his ability or capability within the circumstances which given the FACT that he finished a race held in difficult circumstances is a questionable assumption.

As for Yamaha and access to the data, certainly the data may be telling but just as you question their approach to JL's results having seen the data, what would you say their thoughts would be if the data from VR's bike showed he was either far faster than the has claimed or perhaps even, slower?

You can well question the views of Yamaha but at the same time, JL's caution (or underperforming/under achieving as you prefer) added 6 points to the Yamaha teams and manufacturer championship tally (with Pol adding additional in the manufacturer), 6 points that the other rider/s did not attain.

Additionally, all reports from Yamaha were seemingly happy and content with JL's performance (and VR's at that)

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
After Rossi crashed out from pushing too hard, he said he made a stupid mistake. He knew people would criticize him for crashing. Lorenzo didn't give any effort, he DESERVES and should know he would get some criticism as well. So he got 6 lucky points, Rossi is only 18 points behind him. Lets not forget Lorenzo struggled in the dry at Catalunya and was going backwards when Iannone hit him. He goes to Assen and struggled as well. Germany is like a damn rainforest, good chance next race is wet again. It's JL fans that should be a bit concerned. Could be 3 straight bad rounds for JL.

The more you try, the more you are allowing your inner hater to appear

You say NO EFFORT but I saw a rider on a bike riding around on a circuit that was said to be diabolical with the weather condition ............ hardly, no effort.

Sure he may not have been knees down, rear out of line, elbow scraping the curves, but then most of that across the race occurred when the rider was no longer upright so one could say that theirs was both a wasted effort and to much effort

And once again, FWIW, if it is wet then JL will likely be top 4, it is if the conditions are changeable that he struggles (if damp/drizzle he struggles)

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

Sorry Gaz, but my opinion of Lorenzo's riding ability is far higher than you seem to think it is. Lorenzo on his worst day with an eye patch covering his left eye should beat Rabat. Lorenzo can ride the wheels off a motorcycle, I'm not buying that he was giving 100% (rain, sleet, or snow) while in last place on a factory M1.

Believe what you want.

michaelm · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Hahaha, no Rossi crashing last weekend does not prove the M1 was harder to ride. Rossi crashed only because he failed to adjust his braking point for turn 10 to compensate for the extra speed he was carrying (thanks to switching to the soft rear) after getting a better drive out of turn 9. He wasn't having a hard time and he said his confidence was even better after the restart.

As I said, another case of ambition outweighing ability, however much you try to spin it.

As I have said several times now and you have failed to refute, I believe the way he rode in the Assen race was in the best interests of his championship chances and if it didn't meet the expectations of Rossi fans, for a substantial proportion of whom wthe best result would have been to to see him crash out of the race, tough.

His position in the championship is considerably better than it was last year, and his results are traditionally better in the second half of the season, which was even true in his one truly bad recent season in 2013. If HRC fix their bike I suspect MM will win and I will credit him, and if every race is wet from now on Jorge won't win the championship either, but it is a prevailing conditions championship not a wet or damp conditions championship, and I suspect more races will have conditions to suit him than will not.

Gaz · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
Sorry Gaz, but my opinion of Lorenzo's riding ability is far higher than you seem to think it is. Lorenzo on his worst day with an eye patch covering his left eye should beat Rabat. Lorenzo can ride the wheels off a motorcycle, I'm not buying that he was giving 100% (rain, sleet, or snow) while in last place on a factory M1.

Believe what you want.

Harry Miller or whatever his name was may disagree.

It is not what I believe but to me why when a guy finishes a race, a difficult race where a lot of people fell , then why is he open to the level of criticism?

Pedrosa finished last (Smith being classified as a finisher but 3 laps down).

Pedrosa has finished well down the order previously and been relatively uncritised - for example he qualified in 16th 12 for Assen on a factory bike but you and others have been far gentler on him.

The further point that you seem to overlook (or choose to ignore as you are of course allowed) is that JL did provide the BEST result that was possible for him on that day. You may disagree (again, well within your rights to do so) but on what basis do you form that opinion, remembering that neither you nor I are in his shoes and neither have MotoGP experience.

His BEST result may not be that which you consider he should have achieved and somehow you feel that this is worse that VR's result (using him as the example), a rider who crashed out and provided nothing in terms of points to his team or manufacturer.

You may well be right in that Yamaha preferred the Rossi crash as it provided better publicity and showed more positively than did the Lorenzo struggle, but I would suspect that would be a view of a small minority within the supposedly 'unbiased' Yamaha camp (VR's team and JL's individual teams not included)

It just astounds me (does not surprise, as history would show it is normal services resumed for many) that JL is copping the level of flack he is when he finished a race and others did not and if effort is to be questioned, Arrib has well covered history there (but that seems a different history)

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

michaelm said:
As I said, another case of ambition outweighing ability, however much you try to spin it.

As I have said several times now and you have failed to refute, I believe the way he rode in the Assen race was in the best interests of his championship chances and if it didn't meet the expectations of Rossi fans, for a substantial proportion of whom wthe best eresult would have been to to see him crash out of the race, tough.

His position in the championship is considerably better than it was last year, and his results are traditionally better in the second half of the season, which was even true in his one truly bad recent season in 2013. If HRC fix their bike I suspect MM will win and I will credit him, and if every race is wet from now on Jorge won't win the championship either, but it is a prevailing conditions championship not a wet or damp conditions championship, and iIsuspect more races will have conditions to suit him than will not.

You're very close to saying Lorenzo skipping the race all together was in the best interest of his championship. He went out ready and willing to not earn any points.

I agree that if for the remaining races the conditions suit him well enough to win the championship then good on him.

JPSLotus · Jun 29, 2016

I don't see how you can see Lorenzo didn't put in the effort.

To say he didn't upon the basis of Tito Rabat passing him doesn't say much. The rain changes everything and we certainly saw what the other Marc VDS RCV did...it won the race. It couldn't possibly be that the Marc VDS was simply a better bike in the heavy rain? Certainly in the second race, Rabat finished far behind Lorenzo. There was less water on the track to deal with.

If his hard rain tires were not wearing at all, it means they couldn't generate enough heat to give him any grip with the tarmac. Things were marginally better in the second race for Lorenzo, but they were better enough that he was able to get a better result. At the end of the day, all of these guys are dependent on the equipment and what it gives them...even Rossi himself who is riding around on a tire that is tailor made for his preferences.

moto vudu · Jun 29, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I don't see how you can see Lorenzo didn't put in the effort.

To say he didn't upon the basis of Tito Rabat passing him doesn't say much. The rain changes everything and we certainly saw what the other Marc VDS RCV did...it won the race. It couldn't possibly be that the Marc VDS was simply a better bike in the heavy rain? Certainly in the second race, Rabat finished far behind Lorenzo. There was less water on the track to deal with.

If his hard rain tires were not wearing at all, it means they couldn't generate enough heat to give him any grip with the tarmac. Things were marginally better in the second race for Lorenzo, but they were better enough that he was able to get a better result. At the end of the day, all of these guys are dependent on the equipment and what it gives them...even Rossi himself who is riding around on a tire that is tailor made for his preferences.

Because it wasn't just Rabat that passed him. Every rider (that started behind him) passed him, was every bike better in the heavy rain? Even cutting Lorenzo slack that he often struggles in the wet, he doesn't arrive in last place! I believe he's better than that.

The only explanation that makes sense to me is that not getting hurt was his primary goal, earning points was secondary. I don't think Lorenzo is scared, I saw the onboard footage of him pushing 200mph going into turn 1 at Le Mans. The man isn't scared, but just by watching the dry FP3 session you could see he was having a very hard time. When he had that high speed lowside that was it for him, I think from that point on he was determined to leave Assen unhurt even if it meant no points.

michaelm · Jun 29, 2016

moto vudu said:
You're very close to saying Lorenzo skipping the race all together was in the best interest of his championship. He went out ready and willing to not earn any points.

Yes that is my argument.

Doing that would also have stopped him injuring himself and drastically diminishing his title chances, and he actually said he considered not finishing the race, so I am not close to saying it I would be prepared to say it, although staying out and not riding hard enough to crash but being in position to pick up a few points if conditions changed and points became easily available to him proved a superior strategy as eventuated; he didn't crash and injure himself but did manage to get those 6 points.

I see this as evidence of his absolute bullheadedness which is one of the things for which I came to admire him, and I don't neglect and nor does he that his team would very likely prefer his team-mate rather than him win the championship.

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