Assen 2016

JPSLotus · Jun 27, 2016

michaelm said:
Stoner was upset at LS08 because he had to move from a position on the racing line in control of his bike to the other side of the track to avoid being torpedoed by Rossi who had left the track due to a riding error. How unreasonable. The little ....... then even more unreasonably was miffed when Rossi did actually take him out of a race and the championship lead at Jerez 2010 as a of a particularly egregious riding error.

As I have said before all this talk was around when the Ducati was the bike that rode itself rather than the bike which could not be ridden by anyone else, and I have certainty similar to yours in earlier posts concerning Stoner in this thread that Rossi wouldn't have got within a second of Stoner's lap times on that Ducati at Laguna Seca or elsewhere.

Stoner's use of the rear brake to stabilize the bike through corners around Laguna during the 2008 race was nothing short of stunning. He was leaving trails of rubber through them. Tells you though that the supposed greatness of the GP08 was anything but...the bike looked anything but stable.

While everyone points to the corkscrew overtake as being unsafe, I increasingly over time through rewatching the race, have felt the way Rossi rode during that race leaned more towards the unsafe side of riding as many of his squeeze moves were Senna-esque; 'I'm not moving an inch, so it's up to you as to whether or not we crash' type ..... I think it's more a miracle that both did not crash out of the race because of a number of Rossi's moves.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

BarryMachine said:
No but Stoner ranks above rossi .... so that makes your point stupid.

Indeed on that poll we had here Stoner ranked above all other legends ......

Even rossi claimed Stoner was the best rider.

"Stoner, he ride like a God!"

Valentino Rossi

imunderandoverit · Jun 27, 2016

michaelm said:
It is going to be hard to catch MM given the judicious way he raced today.

Lorenzo actually gained on Rossi today, didn't lose the championship at Assen as he did in 2013, so this is not a bad result from him with presumably many dry races still to come and the Yamahas apparently the best bike in the dry. My money is somewhat on MM though, and I actually wouldn't mind him winning the third title, which I could never have conceived post the Assen race last year.

Rossis chance of winning the title went from 100% down to 50%. Rossi has the best bike and has been by far the best rider this year. His pace has been insane. But with three R's, he is pretty much done.. Until something similar happens to 2006 and 2013.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Yes, it depends on who you ask. It's not really possible for analyse the context without bias. Some may choose a rider that shares their nationality or he's simply the rider they saw and followed first. Everyone has their opinion, but the general consensus will usually bring up the names Hailwood, Roberts, Agostini, and Rossi.

Stoner will not be remembered as the greatest rider of all time by anyone except his most dedicated fanboys. Perhaps the greatest Ducati GP rider there will ever be, but not greatest rider ever.

It's impossible to make such a distinction (as per Arrib's notes on context etc). It's like stating that any one actor is the best over the course of the history of acting. There are only greats in their individual eras.

However, one of the distinctions that will set Stoner apart from the others will be the sheer number of times he humiliated Mr. Nine-Times-World-Championship who with all his support, privileges and advantages.... had his ... kicked by a buck-toothed kid in his 2nd MGP season, on a ...... Ducati, while often making it look so effortless.

unk:

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Marquez won 10 in a row before he assisted with the backwards development of the RCV and before Yamaha improved.

Yes, I do believe Marc would have pushed Stoner out of the sport.

Another baseless load of .... from someone with zero historical perspective. The changes in the bike are driven by Honda R&D who for decades have been well known for ignoring rider input. Spencer and Erv Kanemoto (before you were born?) complained about it and so did Lawson and many who followed in their footsteps over the years. You're like the Trump of Powerslide. Just make up anything you can pull out of your ..., fling it up on the screen and hope somebody is ignorant enough to buy into it. And of course nobody but those intoxicated from drinking the Rossi Kool-Aid are buying it. Yet you continue to underestimate everyone here, which is the definition of insanity; doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. How many times will you stick your fingers in the fire before you realize what an ..... it makes you look like?

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Marquez won 10 in a row before he assisted with the backwards development of the RCV and before Yamaha improved.

Yes, I do believe Marc would have pushed Stoner out of the sport.

Another tidbit of fact-free bollocks from someone with zero historical perspective. The changes in the bike are driven by Honda R&D who for decades have been well known for ignoring rider input. Spencer and Erv Kanemoto (before you were born?) complained about it and so did Lawson and many who followed in their footsteps over the years. You're like the Trump of Powerslide. Just make up anything you can pull out of your ..., fling it up on the screen and hope somebody is ignorant enough to buy into it. And of course nobody but those intoxicated from drinking the Rossi Kool-Aid are buying it. Yet you continue to underestimate everyone here, which is the definition of insanity; doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. How many times will you stick your fingers in the fire before you realize what an ..... it makes you look like?

As to mental toughness, since you mention it, that's another thing you can add to Stoners list of accomplishments. Rossi - with his alleged superhuman capacity to "get into the heads of other riders" was mentally crushed by Stoners total disregard for Rossi's accomplishments, evidenced by the sheer number of times he beat Rossi; to the point where Rossi was running around like a chicken with his head cut off and wandered headless into the Ducati garage, which cost him his shot at the tenth championship he was seeking. So if generating an intensely gratifying sense of schadenfreude in all non-boppers at the thought of the most arrogant guy in the paddock being robbed of #10 can be considered an accomplishment, some may look at that as the cherry on top of the sundae.

moto vudu · Jun 27, 2016

Keshav said:
Another baseless bollocks from someone with zero historical perspective. The changes in the bike are driven by Honda R&D who for decades have been well known for ignoring rider input. Spencer and Erv Kanemoto (before you were born?) complained about it and so did Lawson and many who followed in their footsteps over the years. You're like the Trump of Powerslide. Just make up anything you can pull out of your ..., fling it up on the screen and hope somebody is ignorant enough to buy into it. And of course nobody but those intoxicated from drinking the Rossi Kool-Aid are buying it. Yet you continue to underestimate everyone here, which is the definition of insanity; doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. How many times will you stick your fingers in the fire before you realize what an ..... it makes you look like?

That depends, how many times will it take to get you really pissed off?

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
If I hate Stoner I guess I'm winning because he left the sport. Why can't I have an opinion that he left the sport prematurely (quit), without having a hatred for him?

Because you with your shallow notions about racing and your lack of historical knowledge of the sport, don't have any perspective on which to delineate guidelines for what constitutes "premature". I mean - yeah... you can have your "opinion" which consistently sacrifices nuance and fact for outright fantasy, but don't expect anyone over the age of 12 to take it seriously.

moto vudu · Jun 27, 2016

Keshav said:
Because you with your shallow notions about racing and your lack of historical knowledge of the sport, don't have any perspective on which to delineate guidelines for what constitutes "premature".

There are people with more historical knowledge of the sport that share the opinion Stoner left the sport early.

JPSLotus · Jun 27, 2016

From Kropo's write-up regarding Lorenzo...

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2016/06/27/2016_assen_motogp_sunday_round_up.html

Lorenzo's lack of grip

Confidence, especially in the wet, was the biggest problem for Jorge Lorenzo. The red flag came as a godsend for the reigning world champion, as he was sitting in nineteenth at the time. The restarted race saw Lorenzo finish in tenth, and score 6 valuable championship points. Lorenzo was candid after the race that his tenth place was inherited rather than earned. "I gained because the others crashed, not because I was overtaking," Lorenzo said. "But I was not competitive. It was very difficult to be competitive in the first race because I was probably slower than ever, especially when all the big water came. I was slower and slower."

What is Lorenzo's problem? Part of it is surely still the hangover of his 2013 crash, which saw him break his collarbone. According to team manager Wilco Zeelenberg, Lorenzo is losing three to four tenths of a second in the fourth sector, the part of the track where he hurt himself so badly. When conditions are treacherous, this makes things worse, and Lorenzo can't find a solution to his problems.

Less corner speed, more braking

But Lorenzo also has issues in very specific conditions. If he does not have any grip from the front tire, due to rain or any other reason, he finds it impossible to change his style enough to adapt to the circumstances. "When I feel the front doesn’t have grip under braking, with the style I have and the position of my body on the bike I suffer more than the other riders," Lorenzo explained.

"I am not able to suddenly change my riding, especially to gain the time on braking in the entry of the corner. Normally I sacrifice the other corner to have corner speed but if you don’t have corner speed in the middle of the corner you do not gain. And you also lose on braking. That’s the only way. When I have front feeling, like Motegi, in the rain I’ve been able to be the fastest one. But when I don’t have it I can be the last." This is the one ..... in Lorenzo's armor, and one he will have to address at some point in time.

The events of a wild MotoGP race are likely to prove decisive in the championship, despite the fact that there are still ten races left to go. Marc Márquez' sensible attitude paid off richly, the Repsol Honda rider extending his championship lead over Jorge Lorenzo to 24 points. Valentino Rossi's crash puts him now 42 points behind Márquez, the championship now very difficult for him. But it's been a topsy turvy season so far, so it would be unwise to write anyone off just yet. The top three of six race crashes and DNFs between them in just eight races. There are ten more races in which to shake things up still.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
There are people with more historical knowledge of the sport that share the opinion Stoner left the sport early.

Name names. Or are these more of the imaginary friends who share your belief in the myth of the greatness of Rossi; is it your Teddy Bear; your stuffed unicorn? Name some knowledgeable authority on racing who has stated this.

Or do you merely mean more historical knowledge than you? which would be pretty much everyone.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Jorge said:

“It's not that I was just going quiet. I was pushing in braking, pushing in acceleration and pushing in the middle of the corner. But the bike was giving me warnings in all the areas,” he said."

It's hard to imagine that on a factory M1, felt he was pushing the limits but fell all the back to last place and then some. IMO, he's hitting a mental limit at Assen. He was not performing well in the dry practice sessions and when it rained he mentally checked out. He got hurt before at Assen and it really seems to have had a huge impact on him.

Oh.... I see, like when Lorenzo broke both ankles at Le Mans and was never able to ride with confidence at that track again. Oh... wait, that isn't how it went. Is it?

moto vudu · Jun 27, 2016

Keshav said:
Name names. Or are these more of the imaginary friends who share your belief in the myth of the greatness of Rossi; is it your Teddy Bear; your stuffed unicorn? Name some knowledgeable authority on racing who has stated this.

Or do you merely mean more historical knowledge than you? which would be pretty much everyone.

Does the name Mick Doohan ring a bell, or do you not have sufficient historical knowledge of the sport to know who that is?

FIVE-TIME world champion Mick Doohan says Casey Stoner retired too soon and says he expects the superstar to make a comeback.

The six-time Australian Motorcycle Grand Prix winner’s absence has left a gaping hole at Phillip Island this weekend with only former rivals happy he is not racing.

Doohan, who today will take part in a lap of honour with Stoner and Wayne Gardner, says he can understand the reasons behind why the two-time world champion retired at age 27.

But that doesn’t change the fact he believes Stoner may have jumped the gun.

“It does get a little bit repetitious and there is a lot of pressure, so you’re fully immersed in the sport,” he said.

“So I can see why he was starting to get tired from it and I was a bit the same, but I kept pushing myself because I knew I still wanted to ride.

“These are my thoughts only, but maybe he did pull the pin a bit too early and when he stepped away he realised he still does enjoy the riding and the competition.

“And, Perhaps, maybe it wasn’t as bad as he thought it was.”

Speculation surrounding a possible Stoner comeback won’t go away.

No Cookies | The Advertiser

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
If Stoner was burnt out then good on him for leaving. He no longer had the motivation and that falls under the 95% intellectual 5% physicality quote from King Kenny.

It's only yourself and your ilk that promote this myth. Stoner left because he had standards that he grew up with as a kid that were the backbone and spirit of racing, which were over time denigrated to the point where merely winning by itself, was no longer satisfying. He didn't want to race for fans who booed world champion racers who gave freely of their time to raise money at charity events. He didn't want to race under the direction of Dorna who ignored the safety concerns of riders. He didn't want to race in an industry that short-sightedly stacked the deck in favor of Rossi and never properly acknowledged his accomplishments. Didn't want to race for Ducati who had their ....... head in a hole in the ground re: the shortcomings of the bike. Didn't want to race for shitheads at Philip Morris who actually publicly badmouthed their own rider. He was sick to death of doing endless publicity work and meet-and-greets with ....... suits who knew nothing of racing. Stoner was on balance, a person who had the integrity to walk away from a sport that was no longer satisfying to him, choosing instead to enjoy the fruits of his labor and spend the capital he'd built up over the course of his career by paying back his parents who'd sacrificed everything for him and enjoying a happy relationship with a beautiful wife rather than being spit at by the Custard Cum-Shot Brigade who hated him for beating their savior. This is the action of a man who is secure enough in himself (unlike Rossi) to not require the screaming adulation of thousands of yellow-hatted zombies to know his own self-worth.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
I'm delusional? This is the forum where Jumkie claims Rossi attempted to murder Marquez, Bridgestone is forced out to bring in Michelin so Rossi has an advantage, and Race Direction will Red Flag an event to give Rossi an advantage.

If I'm delusional, I've come to the right place.

Can't argue with that. You've plenty of company. Are the inmates running the asylum? Hard to say.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
There are people with more historical knowledge of the sport that share the opinion Stoner left the sport early.

Genius. No one disputes that Stoner left the sport early.

Unless I'm mistaken, your original contention was that he quit the sport in a defeatist, craven and cowardly manner. Now find me another quote from Mick Doohan that accords with that belief. Thanks.

Keshav · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Nah, you're looking far too deep into it hoping to make a compelling argument. It's not that deep, the opinion mostly stems from Stoner being so critical of the close racing with Rossi at Laguna in 2008. At races he couldn't get a 3-4 second lead and was forced to battle, he seemed to have an issue with it.

All the Rossi's triumphs/failures reflect on me talk is just garbage. I have fun here after all the races no matter where Rossi finishes. If anything, there is a noticeable rise in hostility on this forum when Rossi WINS, so don't even attempt to single me out as some obsessed bopper. I'm one of the few that participate here that don't hate any of the riders.

I have to laugh at this considering the predictable frequency with which your first post in any given thread opens with how upset all the "haters" will be if or when Rossi wins a race.

Stoner was remarkably taciturn at Laguna and when he crashed - he didn't whine about anyone being responsible for his crash. He took full responsibility for crashing and did not apportion blame to Rossi. I don't recall whether he commented on Rossi's desperation when he cut through the turn in the corkscrew, which was a ........ move. In the event, show me a quote where he says he didn't like racing against Rossi at Laguna. It was a great race. He didn't like losing (who does) but he took it in stride. If you can't produce a link to said "opinion" we will just assume this to be another bopper meme.

moto vudu · Jun 27, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Genius. No one disputes that Stoner left the sport early.

Unless I'm mistaken, your original contention was that he quit the sport in a defeatist, craven and cowardly manner. Now find me another quote from Mick Doohan that accords with that belief. Thanks.

Actually, Keshav is attempting to dispute that Stoner left the sport early.

I don't believe I said Stoner left in a cowardly manner, but I do feel he's a quitter. I believe he loves racing motorcycles, but he allowed his love for the sport to be overshadowed by a relatively small amount of negativity. If his motivation for excelling in GP racing was that fragile then perhaps he never should have participated in the sport. Plenty of BSB & WSBK riders that would love the opportunities Stoner received and they could handle all the adversity.

JPSLotus · Jun 27, 2016

moto vudu said:
Actually, Keshav is attempting to dispute that Stoner left the sport early.

I don't believe I said Stoner left in a cowardly manner, but I do feel he's a quitter. I believe he loves racing motorcycles, but he allowed his love for the sport to be overshadowed by a relatively small amount of negativity. If his motivation for excelling in GP racing was that fragile then perhaps he never should have participated in the sport. Plenty of BSB & WSBK riders that would love the opportunities Stoner received and they could handle all the adversity.

Oh good god, you're a ....... ......

This entire Stoner thing started because I said something about Rossi, and like every butt-hurt yellow bopper out there, you went off on a tangent about Stoner to try and troll me. It didn't work. You made numerous ........ complains about Stoner and the greatness of Rossi, which were all easily disproven as being nothing more than the rantings of yet another Rossi Cult Member.

You continue moving the goal posts every single time someone easily calls ........ on your comments. Sorry dude, this conversation would have been over many pages ago if you weren't so insistent on trying to be right about something.

Right now the script goes:

Vudu: Blah blah blah ........ claim

Another Poster: This incorrect because etc. etc. etc. etc.

Vudu: I never said, YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF ROSSI HATERS (capitals my emphasis) blah blah blah ........ claim #2 because I was MISUNDERSTOOD.

Bro, no one is misunderstanding you. It's annoying to have someone who's idea of debating is to change positions or subjects in midstream every time something is shot down.

For you to continue debating why Stoner retired --he did not quit, he retired for the umpteenth time-- and to chalk it up to either he was mentally weak or that he was a coward, is again to be so far out of your element as to why he felt retirement at the age of 27 was infinitely more preferable than continuing another year for a king's ransom of $20 million USD.

A "small amount of negativity"?

You really have no clue dude.

This is like watching Donald Trump try to talk about the finer points of foreign policy.

To even say BSB and WSBK riders could handle what Stoner had to deal with is laughable. None of them even come near his talent level, so they'd never be in the situation to have to deal with the adversity he faced and won titles in spite of. Like most ignorant GP fans, you still don't comprehend what Stoner was doing on the Desmosedici, and the sort of talent it would take to ride a bike the way he was doing.

moto vudu · Jun 27, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Oh good god, you're a ....... ......

This entire Stoner thing started because I said something about Rossi, and like every butt-hurt yellow bopper out there, you went off on a tangent about Stoner to try and troll me. It didn't work. You made numerous ........ complains about Stoner and the greatness of Rossi, which were all easily disproven as being nothing more than the rantings of yet another Rossi Cult Member.

You continue moving the goal posts every single time someone easily calls ........ on your comments. Sorry dude, this conversation would have been over many pages ago if you weren't so insistent on trying to be right about something.

Right now the script goes:

Vudu: Blah blah blah ........ claim

Another Poster: This incorrect because etc. etc. etc. etc.

Vudu: I never said, YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF ROSSI HATERS (capitals my emphasis) blah blah blah ........ claim #2 because I was MISUNDERSTOOD.

Bro, no one is misunderstanding you. It's annoying to have someone who's idea of debating is to change positions or subjects in midstream every time something is shot down.

For you to continue debating why Stoner retired --he did not quit, he retired for the umpteenth time-- and to chalk it up to either he was mentally weak or that he was a coward, is again to be so far out of your element as to why he felt retirement at the age of 27 was infinitely more preferable than continuing another year for a king's ransom of $20 million USD.

A "small amount of negativity"?

You really have no clue dude.

This is like watching Donald Trump try to talk about the finer points of foreign policy.

To even say BSB and WSBK riders could handle what Stoner had to deal with is laughable. None of them even come near his talent level, so they'd never be in the situation to have to deal with the adversity he faced and won titles in spite of. Like most ignorant GP fans, you still don't comprehend what Stoner was doing on the Desmosedici, and the sort of talent it would take to ride a bike the way he was doing.

No goal post moved. When I initially mentioned Stoner I said he was a quitter. In my previous post I said he was a quitter. I'm consistent with my opinion that he's a quitter.

As far as no other rider being able to handle what Stoner went through or they can't equal their talent... we wont know because they will not be given the opportunities Stoner was given. You're amazed at how he was able to ride the Ducati, you never would've known he could do that if he didn't get the opportunity.

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