Assen 2016

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
ROFL, your list of "Have you ever" pales comparison to what the vast majority of celebrities go through on a daily basis. Hell, a lot of non-celebrities go through far more adversity and have to fight not to let life tear them down.

You really do not like Stoner do you ................ what did he do, did he beat your god in a fair fight?

Yep, many celebrities do get treated poorly by some people in the public and all for being in the public eye but that is nowhere near right as many of these people do not openly seek the limelight thrust upon them and nor do they deserve derision for simply doing a job that they happen to be skilled at.

The issue for me with these occurrences is that it is borne from the more recent phenomenon of 'cult of ownership' where many people seem to demand that the 'celebrity' is beholden to their will, wishes, wants and desires and therefore must accept this demanding behaviour that would be unacceptable were it to be forced on people not in the public eye.

You may rofl at the list and that Stoner experienced this, would you laugh were Rossi subject to the spitting, the constant booing and the personal attacks (and CS' issues were not forum attacks but threats/attacks made in public) as I suspect that you would be calling for those perpetrating the abuse to be the ones to suffer.

Oh, and before you ask - I have been spat on and at a few times by people who did not like decisions that I may have made or actions that I had done within a sporting environment. Let me tell you, it is extremely difficult to not want to rip the jugular vein from someone's through when they spit at you, but it is quite enjoyable to blow them a kiss and wish them well.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
I don't hate Stoner. I question his mental toughness, but I certainly don't hate the man. I don't hate any rider, that's why I can enjoy every race whether Rossi wins or not.

I have said it before and will say it again.

To you, his leaving was a sign of mental weakness, to me the fact (yes, FACT) that he rejected an offer of 20 million US per season, the most money EVER offered by Honda in F1 or MotoGP is a sign of mental strength.

IMO, if CS had a weakness (mentally) it is one of caring for the sport and being extremely well versed in it's history such that he no longer wanted to compete. Quite simply, he fell out of love with the sport and it's challenges that so engrossed him when younger and as ALL athletes should do, when the fun stops they should stop as the drive that made them so good will disappear and lessen,.

To many people stay in a sport and fade away as they become far less competitive which only affects their end legacy whereas Stoner can look back knowing that he left whilst at the top and whilst competitive

michaelm · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Confirming Stoner is a cry baby. He couldn't take a small element of fans that did or said stupid things. He had thousands of fans supporting him, thousands of fans of his rivals were still respectful to him, but the minority of fans that showed up at races and acted like jackasses made him want to quit? He couldn't take that? What's astonishing is that he lasted in the sport longer than one season if his skin is that thin.

Thus you out yourself as a "hater" as well as Gaz says. If you wish to argue you have been provoked into assuming that position what do you think formed the attitudes of those whom you dispute?

moto vudu · Jun 26, 2016

Gaz said:
You really do not like Stoner do you ................ what did he do, did he beat your god in a fair fight?

Yep, many celebrities do get treated poorly by some people in the public and all for being in the public eye but that is nowhere near right as many of these people do not openly seek the limelight thrust upon them and nor do they deserve derision for simply doing a job that they happen to be skilled at.

The issue for me with these occurrences is that it is borne from the more recent phenomenon of 'cult of ownership' where many people seem to demand that the 'celebrity' is beholden to their will, wishes, wants and desires and therefore must accept this demanding behaviour that would be unacceptable were it to be forced on people not in the public eye.

You may rofl at the list and that Stoner experienced this, would you laugh were Rossi subject to the spitting, the constant booing and the personal attacks (and CS' issues were not forum attacks but threats/attacks made in public) as I suspect that you would be calling for those perpetrating the abuse to be the ones to suffer.

Oh, and before you ask - I have been spat on and at a few times by people who did not like decisions that I may have made or actions that I had done within a sporting environment. Let me tell you, it is extremely difficult to not want to rip the jugular vein from someone's through when they spit at you, but it is quite enjoyable to blow them a kiss and wish them well.

Stoner wanted to be a GP rider, he wasn't forced to be one. He was riding the best bikes in the world on the best tracks. He should not have let anyone spoil that for him.

moto vudu · Jun 26, 2016

michaelm said:
Thus you out yourself as a "hater" as well as Gaz says. If you wish to argue you have been provoked into assuming that position what do you think formed the attitudes of those whom you dispute?

If I hate Stoner I guess I'm winning because he left the sport. Why can't I have an opinion that he left the sport prematurely (quit), without having a hatred for him?

povol · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
It's not over til it's over. People were saying it was over for Rossi after Mugello, but Rossi gained those 25 points right back from Lorenzo in the very next race. Marquez is riding very smart this year, so it will be difficult to gain points on him but anything can happen. Every race (except COTA) as been very unpredictable.

Agree, anything can happen with over half the season to play out. This season is a role reversal from last year with Rossi and Marquez. Rossi is running at the front but making huge mistakes and digging himself a huge hole. Marquez is playing it smart and collecting max points when he cant win. Lorenzo strangely enough is sitting in a similar place he was last season as well. Now they head to tracks that Marquez and Honda favors starting with today. Marc has been untouchable in Germany but with the new tires who knows how it will affect his performance. Speaking of tires, No one has benefitted more from the tire change than Rossi as his overall performance is considerably better than last year, but on the same hand, they have cost him more in 8 races than i can remember ever costing him. Is Rossi so determined to beat Marquez and Lorenzo that it has clouded his judgement, or as Stoner said, is his ambition outweighing his talent.

michaelm · Jun 26, 2016

double

michaelm · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Confirming Stoner is a cry baby. He couldn't take a small element of fans that did or said stupid things. He had thousands of fans supporting him, thousands of fans of his rivals were still respectful to him, but the minority of fans that showed up at races and acted like jackasses made him want to quit? He couldn't take that? What's astonishing is that he lasted in the sport longer than one season if his skin is that thin.

Lorenzo and MM have recently said much the same thing ie that GP bike racing is not soccer, and that while riders race for their own reasons it is ignorant to boo given they are actually risking their lives. I agree with all 3 of them.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
If I hated Stoner I guess I'm winning because he left the sport. Why can't I have an opinion that he left the sport prematurely (quit), without having a hatred for him?

Who says you can't?

The point I have been trying to make is that it is just that, an opinion that he left prematurely and thus he quit to which I feel is incorrect and to which I beg to differ - I say he retired you say he quit.

FWIW, have you seen Krops articles from time to time about the injuries that CS had suffered?

Asking as for me, these likely played a part as well is his retirement and I do not mean the ankle which it was said was a more severe injury than initially diagnosed and one that the mentally weak still rode to 4th place on a day or so later. I do however refer to the neck injury suffered when he hit haybales head first due to a fall in his early GP career that have been reported as resulting in a level of degenerative neck nerve and muscular damage (Krop mentioned more details)

IMO only, but the fans played a small part in his decision to leave the sport but may have played a larger decision in why his family wanted him to leave the sport (as it was reported that they also were on the receiving end from time to time)

moto vudu · Jun 26, 2016

povol said:
Agree, anything can happen with over half the season to play out. This season is a role reversal from last year with Rossi and Marquez. Rossi is running at the front but making huge mistakes and digging himself a huge hole. Marquez is playing it smart and collecting max points when he cant win. Lorenzo strangely enough is sitting in a similar place he was last season as well. Now they head to tracks that Marquez and Honda favors starting with today. Marc has been untouchable in Germany but with the new tires who knows how it will affect his performance. Speaking of tires, No one has benefitted more from the tire change than Rossi as his overall performance is considerably better than last year, but on the same hand, they have cost him more in 8 races than i can remember ever costing him. Is Rossi so determined to beat Marquez and Lorenzo that it has clouded his judgement, or as Stoner said, is his ambition outweighing his talent.

It's a tough one. On one hand the riders don't want to take on too much risk, but they can't win the championship without taking risks. I'm sure when Rossi shows up a circuit and is strong the entire weekend, he really wants to take home maximum points because maybe he is not as strong at the next circuit. Hindsight shows he should have played it safer after the race restart, but at the time he may have been thinking about how critical it would be to get on the podium if only a handful of points separates him from Lorenzo and Marquez when they arrive at Valencia. So he took a risk, but pushed too hard and crashed. It's the constant risk/reward balancing act the riders have to contend with. If they take the risk and win, they're a hero. If they crash, they're an ......

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Stoner wanted to be a GP rider, he wasn't forced to be one. He was riding the best bikes in the world on the best tracks. He should not have let anyone spoil that for him.

No offence but again BS

Would I be right in abusing Simon Crafar because he got to ride a GP bike?

Of course I wouldn't, I would just be a brain dead sheep like moron incapable of reasoned thought for myself but instead subservient to the wills of those around me as I fall into the mob mentality complex.

As for letting it spoil things for him, did Valentino himself not say that last year was spoilt for him by the actions of others?

Why yes, yes he did thus the same should apply should it not?

The fact is that these riders are human afterall and at times they can be unsettled or upset by influences that you or I may see as trivial, but then, we are also not living in their world with their levels of stresses, nor do we have the demands placed upon us that they experience and so forth. All of these people are highly strung (same as many gifted athletes and performers) and at times, even the highly strung, those that we the general public look at as having the 'perfect life' show their human side.

These people are not robots, which sadly I feel a lot of people forget with the demands placed upon them.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
It's a tough one. On one hand the riders don't want to take on too much risk, but they can't win the championship without taking risks. I'm sure when Rossi shows up a circuit and is strong the entire weekend, he really wants to take home maximum points because maybe he is not as strong at the next circuit. Hindsight shows he should have played it safer after the race restart, but at the time he may have been thinking about how critical it would be to get on the podium if only a handful of points separates him from Lorenzo and Marquez when they arrive at Valencia. So he took a risk, but pushed too hard and crashed. It's the constant risk/reward balancing act the riders have to contend with. If they take the risk and win, they're a hero. If they crash, they're an ......

It was somewhat glossed over but I feel that JPS' comments here are relevant.

The race stoppage changed the dynamic of the race as riders who were in their 'comfort zone' and had rhythym were suddenly forced to stop thus when the restart happened some may still have been in the 'old' mindset and not taking consideration of the changed conditions.

Not saying that VR's results would have been different with no red flag but as with a rain delay at a golf tournament, we often see sportspeople unable to continue on the high level post delay

Edit to add:
No rider who falls in the wet is an ..... - they would only be an ..... if they did not learn from the fall

povol · Jun 26, 2016

Keshav said:
Stoner never liked close racing? Really? Did you ever see him in his 250 days? Ever watch him trade paint with Rossi at PI? I mean really... what the .... planet are you on?

You sure are certain when it comes to fantasies that cannot be proven or disproven. Tell me, who would have won in a duel at the OK Corral; Dracula or Jesus? Please regale us with your expert analysis.

Thats just another Bopper myth that Stoner didnt like close racing. His talents often left him 3-4 seconds ahead of the field so that was morphed into not liking close racing. All anyone needs to know about the size of Stoners ball is his pass on Lorenzo at turn 1 Laguna. An off line blind entry pass at 170 mph, where if anything goes wrong, you probably die. The boy had plenty of balls

moto vudu · Jun 26, 2016

Gaz said:
It was somewhat glossed over but I feel that JPS' comments here are relevant.

The race stoppage changed the dynamic of the race as riders who were in their 'comfort zone' and had rhythym were suddenly forced to stop thus when the restart happened some may still have been in the 'old' mindset and not taking consideration of the changed conditions.

Not saying that VR's results would have been different with no red flag but as with a rain delay at a golf tournament, we often see sportspeople unable to continue on the high level post delay

Edit to add:
No rider who falls in the wet is an ..... - they would only be an ..... if they did not learn from the fall

He misjudged the corner increased corner entrance speed he was carrying because he switched to the soft rear tire.

“I think it was right to red flag the first race because the amount of water was too much and it began to get very dangerous. The bike started to aquaplane a lot and you couldn't see anything behind another bike.

“But I felt good and I had a good pace. So for the second part we put the soft rear tyre [instead of the hard] and it felt even better. I had a good start and I tried to go fast because with the soft rear I had a lot more grip.

“But I did a mistake. I was too fast. I pushed too hard. It was too much. It was a stupid mistake unfortunately and I'm very sorry for all the team because today we can win.”

Rossi explained that the accident occurred because the extra grip from the soft rear tyre meant he arrived at Turn 10 faster than expected and should have braked earlier to compensate.

“We put the soft in the second part of the race and in Turn 9 I was a lot faster because I can open the throttle earlier and I arrive at Turn 10 and brake in the same point. But I arrived 4-5 km/h faster and I lost the front.”

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
He misjudged the corner increased corner entrance speed he was carrying because he switched to the soft rear tire.

Doesn't make him an ..... that he had better grip heading to the corner and thus carried a higher entry speed.

Just as he is no ..... for missing a braking point

Were he to make the mistake again, then he is on the way to being an id10t under the circumstances (he won't make the mistake again)

moto vudu · Jun 26, 2016

Gaz said:
Doesn't make him an ..... that he had better grip heading to the corner and thus carried a higher entry speed.

Just as he is no ..... for missing a braking point

Were he to make the mistake again, then he is on the way to being an id10t under the circumstances (he won't make the mistake again)

I don't think he is an ..... for making the mistake. I was speaking in general that usually when a rider takes a risk and it results in a crash, they're criticized for it.

ReddiWhip · Jun 26, 2016

michaelm said:
I asked for no apologies, I have a specific philosophical objection to the use/misuse of medical terminology in the context of an Internet forum.

You actually illustrate my point, that what is delusional from one point of view is "fact" from another, and I find it a double standard of breathtaking proportions that you guys get so irate about criticism of Rossi given that any criticism of him is exceeded by orders of magnitude by vilification of other riders by his fans, and by he himself at the end of last season.

And again, what I keep trotting out is that it is ludicrous to accuse someone of not trying hard enough in a race he won, by definition riding fast enough to win without crashing, the essential requirement for winning in this sport as the recent race once again demonstrated.

No my friend, you've proved my point.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
I don't think he is an ..... for making the mistake. I was speaking in general that usually when a rider takes a risk and it results in a crash, they're criticized for it.

But there is a calculated risk and then there are the other types of risk.

As an example if we look at today's race, were MM to push harder to win the race that would have been one of the 'other' types of risks as he is not racing Miller in the title, but instead he took the calculated risk of riding within himself on a dodgy surface and it paid dividends.

A poor choice when taking a risk would be those riders last year that stayed out in full wet condition on slicks (cannot recall race from the top of my head)

One is in some way deserving of criticism whilst the other may be less deserving (some people will be criticised no matter what they do)

michaelm · Jun 26, 2016

ReddiWhip said:
No my friend, you've proved my point.

I have more talent than I appreciated then, as you have yet to make any discernible point on this thread for me to prove. Certainly Rossi had no proof which met any standard of evidence for any claims he made about PI 2015, said claims basically being not only that the guy who won the race should have ridden faster but also that he somehow orchestrated the finishing positions of the riders who finished in the next 3 positions behind him; I am happy to define the word ludicrous for you as I did schizophrenia if you like.

Gaz · Jun 26, 2016

And what we should be enjoying ................... a bloody stand up wheelie

https://streamable.com/4xp6

And Jack celebrates - with a drink

https://gfycat.com/NaturalDownrightKakapo

Assen 2016

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