Aragon - The Race Thread - Spoilers

[MigsAngel]

And thats what Yamaha has, is doubt. The only way for them to know for sure what Spies may or may not do, is to control what he may or may not do.

Yamaha has given ben a top flight bike from day one in the season. He just hasnt been able to deliver on it, and that is when his bike hasnt had major technical problems. Yamaha has nothing to worry about from Spies over the next 4 races, so as to need to have the bike detuned.

Why waste time on conspiracy when the Bens mediocre talent will do the work for yamaha...

 

[BBSB]

Re-watch a few more times. But this time open your eyes.

He lunged ahead of Hector, disrupting his line, ran wide, over-corrected, physicals dictating it slowed him down, just enough for Hector to have nowhere to go. Dani's screw up on desperation. If you think, like many lames, that the poof for blame is in getting hit for behind, then you should read Dan's take on fault when he ran into the back of Simoncelli. If he doesn't win the title, it will be squarely his own fault.

You again with that BS Jumkie? Really? I don't need to re-watch any more times. I know what I saw, thank you very much.



Ran wide? it slowed him down? Indeed he slowed down... to avoid hiting Johny Rea, who was taking the corner a bit too slow for Dani's taste. Barbera foolishly decided to follow Pedrosa to pass DePuniet as well but the move was never going to work out because there was no space left, he had Pedrosa just in front of him starting to make the corner at a speed dictated by a much slower Rea. Quite simply Barbera did go for a gap that was not there. Pedrosa had passed Barbera well before the corner. He was ahead. It's up to the rider behind to make sure he doesn't ram into the back of other riders.



The bottom line, Barbera braked too late and collected Pedrosa. It's Barbera's fault.



Also, comparing the Le Mans 2011 incident with this one... wow. Why do I get the feeling you are just taking the piss?

They are 2 completely different types of incident. Pedrosa ran into the back of Simoncelli?

Just... stop it.

 

[michaelm]

You again with that BS Jumkie? Really? I don't need to re-watch any more times. I know what I saw, thank you very much.



Ran wide? it slowed him down? Indeed he slowed down... to avoid hiting Johny Rea, who was taking the corner a bit too slow for Dani's taste. Barbera foolishly decided to follow Pedrosa to pass DePuniet as well but the move was never going to work out because there was no space left, he had Pedrosa just in front of him starting to make the corner at a speed dictated by a much slower Rea. Quite simply Barbera did go for a gap that was not there. Pedrosa had passed Barbera well before the corner. He was ahead. It's up to the rider behind to make sure he doesn't ram into the back of other riders.



The bottom line, Barbera braked too late and collected Pedrosa. It's Barbera's fault.



Also, comparing the Le Mans 2011 incident with this one... wow. Why do I get the feeling you are just taking the piss?

They are 2 completely different types of incident. Pedrosa ran into the back of Simoncelli?

Just... stop it.

I think you have a balanced view of the recent incident, but what happened in the simoncelli incident other than dani running into a faster bike (which had caught up in the order of 4 seconds in a few laps) which had already passed him? I haven't got it in for dani, I wouldn't mind him winning the 2012 championship, but imo that incident was at the most 60:40 in terms of fault, and showed poor judgement by dani given the championship situation, much like stoner at sachsenring this year. I wouldn't necessarily criticise him or stoner for going for it in the respective situations, it was the racer thing to do, but no way was the simoncelli incident entirely marco's fault, and dani was going too fast for the line he was on even if simoncelli hadn't been there.

 

[BBSB]

I think you have a balanced view of the recent incident, but what happened in the simoncelli incident other than dani running into a faster bike (which had caught up in the order of 4 seconds in a few laps) which had already passed him? I haven't got it in for dani, I wouldn't mind him winning the 2012 championship, but imo that incident was at the most 60:40 in terms of fault, and showed poor judgement by dani given the championship situation, much like stoner at sachsenring this year. I wouldn't necessarily criticise him or stoner for going for it in the respective situations, it was the racer thing to do, but no way was the simoncelli incident entirely marco's fault, and dani was going too fast for the line he was on even if simoncelli hadn't been there.

The Le Mans 2011 incident, Pedrosa made a poor, awfull, terrible decision by disputing a 2nd place with a much faster rider, specially that rider being sic. He would never going to beat him to 2nd as his pace in the latter stages of that particular race was almost like a backmarker compared to sic's pace. He should just play it safe for an easy 3rd and the championship lead. I remember at the time when he lined him up on the straight I thought to myself "oh no, this is going to end up badly for Pedro". I was very disapointed in Pedrosa for trying to defend an impossible position given the pace difference between the 2.



However... how the hell does that make him at fault (or partly) for the accident in itself?

Pedro running into sic... C'mon now. You can't be serious. Sic already passed him? WTF!?



refresh your memory

http://www.dailymoti...t-pedrosa_sport



Pedrosa outdragged him on the straight on the inside, Sic had better grip so he braked deeper, when they starterd entering the corner they were side by side with Pedro marginaly ahead. So how was sic already passed him? With much higher corner speed sic then comes from the outside and clearly cuts Dani's nose leaving him no space to make the corner. Sic made the corner almost as if he was alone.



"dani was going too fast for the line he was on even if simoncelli hadn't been there"



BS. EVEN with sic there he was going to make the corner normaly. Only when it was clear that sic was going to HIT him, is when he braked further.

 

[Jumkie]

Did or did not Dani clip the back of Sic? Answer that. If ur going to say Hector was at fault for clipping Dani, then the same must be true for Sic. Arent all brakes created the same? Of course not right? Its a matter of magnitude. U and many convinced Dani was not at fault with Hector because of a programed response that hitting the back must mean rear rider fault, but then u try to argue it doesnt apply to Sic? Its a fluid situation, and Dani lunged in feont of Hector while action was happening, not giving Hector enuf time to brake. He effectively disrupted Hectors line. No Dani and Hector easily makes that turn. And adjust for Rea? Thats the first i've heard of that.



Dani was desperate and like the Sic incident used poor judgement. Both his fault. Both times he was out of his mind. Especially in the incident involving Hector.

 

[michaelm]

The Le Mans 2011 incident, Pedrosa made a poor, awfull, terrible decision by disputing a 2nd place with a much faster rider, specially that rider being sic. He would never going to beat him to 2nd as his pace in the latter stages of that particular race was almost like a backmarker compared to sic's pace. He should just play it safe for an easy 3rd and the championship lead. I remember at the time when he lined him up on the straight I thought to myself "oh no, this is going to end up badly for Pedro". I was very disapointed in Pedrosa for trying to defend an impossible position given the pace difference between the 2.



However... how the hell does that make him at fault (or partly) for the accident in itself?

Pedro running into sic... C'mon now. You can't be serious. Sic already passed him? WTF!?



refresh your memory

http://www.dailymoti...t-pedrosa_sport



Pedrosa outdragged him on the straight on the inside, Sic had better grip so he braked deeper, when they starterd entering the corner they were side by side with Pedro marginaly ahead. So how was sic already passed him? With much higher corner speed sic then comes from the outside and clearly cuts Dani's nose leaving him no space to make the corner. Sic made the corner almost as if he was alone.



"dani was going too fast for the line he was on even if simoncelli hadn't been there"



BS. EVEN with sic there he was going to make the corner normaly. Only when it was clear that sic was going to HIT him, is when he braked further.

Like you I don't need to look at it again, I saw it at the time. Simoncelli got past him, dani tried to get back past him on an inside line where there wasn't enough room, and he either had a minor lose or hit a bump because his bike moved before he hit marco Perhaps you can explain the physics of simoncelli's bike staying up and dani's going down if simoncelli was behind, and the point of contact of the bikes is rather unusual in this space time continuum if simoncelli was behind.



(EDIT I did watch it again, just for you. It does not even show the whole thing from when simoncelli first came up on dani, and dani was not in complete control of the bike which clearly moved before any contact with marco as I remembered; perhaps he was unlucky and hit a bump, but his bike clearly moved sideways. Dani at the end attempted something similar to the stoner pass on bautista, for which stoner rightly attracted criticism given his previous sanctimony about how clean a rider he was, but stoner at least managed to make some adjustment so neither of them went down. I wasn't a great defender of simoncelli's riding, and his judgement was also questionable in this incident as it was in general as there was not much percentage in him pushing things on that particular corner at that particular time either, but there is no way he was the only contributor to the crash).

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2OT5wMWM_Jk

 

[michaelm]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2OT5wMWM_Jk[/media]

Exactly. Simoncelli does a nice clean pass on dani and gets his whole bike and more in front of dani, despite having apparently identical bikes dani has more straightline grunt but never gets back past him and hence has no right to that corner by any convention in racing of which I am aware, simoncelli goes around the corner on a feasible racing line, proven by him making the corner even after dani hitting him, and may well have taken the corner as though dani wasn't there because he neither expected dani to be there nor thought he had any right to be there.

 

[Jumkie]

Exactly. Simoncelli does a nice clean pass on dani and gets his whole bike and more in front of dani, despite having apparently identical bikes dani has more straightline grunt but never gets back past him and hence has no right to that corner by any convention in racing of which I am aware, simoncelli goes around the corner on a feasible racing line, proven by him making the corner even after dani hitting him, and may well have taken the corner as though dani wasn's there because he neither expected dani to be there nor thought he had any right to be there.

And I'll add, Sic was "well ahead" of Dani in that corner (as "well ahead" is defined by the latest Dani incident). Unless the revisionist are going to say Dani clipped Sic on his front wheel. Dani should have apologized for not being able to brake enough as lame Hector did to contain damage control. I've read several peeps saying a crash from behind is tantamount to the rear rider being the perpetrator, well then, why doesn't this apply to Pedro? Answer, because an incident needs a bit more analysis than the kneejerk reaction I've read concerning Dani's screw up on Hector. Desperate moves sometimes have consequences. Its amazing to me how peeps are so quick to absolve Dani knowing the .... that had surely just ...... with his state of mind and the clear desperation he exibited in the first few laps. He is still human and he was bound to make a mistake, which came when he lunged ahead of Hector, having to overcorrect, leaving Hector nowhere to go, and thus screw up Barbara's and DePuniets race. Dani should have been a bit more patient and his title hopes would have been in clear advance today.

 

[michaelm]

And I'll add, Sic was "well ahead" of Dani in that corner. Unless the revisionist are going to say Dani clipped Sic on his front wheel. Dani should have apologized for not being able to brake enough as lame Hector did to contain damage control. I've read several peeps saying a crash from behind is tantamount to the rear rider being the perpetrator, well then, why doesn't this apply to Pedro?

I don't think hector was trying to re-pass dani, so if he was in error it was a mistake, rather than a deliberate attempt to get back past a rider who had caught up 4 seconds and made a clean, decisive and completed pass. I don't hate dani, and don't think there was any malice from him, but I think he was trying to prove something vis a vis him and marco, perhaps rather like another attempted pass earlier in that season we need not go into again.

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

So we can all agree this was uncalled for.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WrhjLHLjVZE





Karma's a ..... Dani. Enjoy Marky Marc Marq as your teammate next year. Have your collarbone specialist on standby.

 

[Jumkie]

[font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

Karma's a ..... Dani. Enjoy Marky Marc Marq as your teammate next year. Have your collarbone specialist on standby.

[/background][/font]

Ah, the irony.

 

[baturro]

You guys sure are good at holding grudges, and beating dead horses!

 

[michaelm]

You guys sure are good at holding grudges, and beating dead horses!

I don't have now and never have had any animus against dani, I was hoping he would win the title this year, although I think lorenzo is great.



I thought simoncelli was rash as a rider, but not in this instance, and I thought at the time he shouldn't have got the penalty. You may well argue that the le mans 2011 incident with simoncelli had nothing to do with the recent barbera incident, but it is defying reality to suggest that in both instances all fault lay with the other rider. I didn't need to see the video mdub posted because I remembered the live coverage, but it is a matter of simple fact that simoncelli made a completed pass on dani and dani was trying to get back past him, which he needed to do by all conventions unless you are lewis hamilton before he got to the corner, particularly given that as BBSB has said simoncelli had superior cornerspeed and a faster line. To get to my opinion, I don't think dani was going to make the corner on the line he was on at the speed he was going, and he slid or hopped sideways before he contacted simoncelli, maybe he had been reading this forum and was doing a comparison of barry's and arab's methods of backing it in.

 

[Jumkie]

Great post Mike. I agree with everything you said, except I was hoping Casey would win the title. But hey, I don't think he is mathematically eliminated right? So maybe he can put a hard pass on Dani at Motegi risking a crash and all.

Baturro

, I kid man, I kid (as you English speakers say, "I'm taking the piss").

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

You guys sure are good at holding grudges, and beating dead horses!

So does that mean I am forgiven for my part in bull ......-gate?

 

[baturro]

Sure! Of course your forgiven. Thanks for straightening that .... out!!

 

[BBSB]

At Misano Pedrosa had completely made the pass on Barbera just before he entered the corner. And as I said he didn't ran wide as Jumkie claims or "over-corrected". He does a normal line at that corner as the other riders. He was just slowing the bike down enough not to hit the rider in front - who in this case was Rea who was entering (and doing) the corner at a much slower pace than anyone else (as you would expect from a rookie on his first race on his first lap, with little to no practice).

Even so, Barbera had enough time or room to brake without hitting anyone. The problem is that quite clearly the guy decided he wanted to pass De Puniet at that corner (watch carefully below), so he let the bike go ahead but there was not enough space there. Pedrosa was traped behind a very slow Rea so obviously he couldn't do anything to prevent being hit nor was he expecting to be hit. Barbera misjudged the speed difference between him and Pedro/Rea and hit him. Completely his fault.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YC600p2TyA&feature=related[/media]



But at Le Mans - unlike Misano - they were side by side entering the corner. Sic was not ahead entering that corner as Pedrosa was in Misano. Yes Jumkie, Dani did clip the back of Sic's bike but that was only after the Italian cut across him. He did not leave Pedro enough room to make the corner. You are racing other competitors, you are not racing alone. You have to leave enough room to the other guy. Which he didn't. His fault.



michaelm, I didn't say sic was behind. I said they were side by side. And now I see why you said sic had already passed him. You were talking about sic's first move on him at the previous corner. However, that one is not when the incident took place, obviously we're talking about the one where they enter the corner side by side. Here sic was not ahead.



What you judge as Dani losing control of the bike because of too much speed and/or hitting a bump is actually when he abruptly brakes as he realises he's not going to make the corner due to sic aproaching his line and is now trying to stop the bike to avoid hitting him.

 

[BBSB]

Exactly. Simoncelli does a nice clean pass on dani and gets his whole bike and more in front of dani, despite having apparently identical bikes dani has more straightline grunt but never gets back past him and hence has no right to that corner by any convention in racing of which I am aware, simoncelli goes around the corner on a feasible racing line, proven by him making the corner even after dani hitting him, and may well have taken the corner as though dani wasn't there because he neither expected dani to be there nor thought he had any right to be there.

He has no right to that corner... oh, so what corner do you suppose he should take instead?



"simoncelli goes around the corner on a feasible racing line, proven by him making the corner even after dani hitting him, and may well have taken the corner as though dani wasn't there because he neither expected dani to be there nor thought he had any right to be there."



Really? What you wrote there makes no sence. Are you saying sic was blind and didn't see Dani coming alongside him and marginally ahead on his left side on the straight and then entering the corner on the inside?

 

[michaelm]

He has no right to that corner... oh, so what corner do you suppose he should take instead?



"simoncelli goes around the corner on a feasible racing line, proven by him making the corner even after dani hitting him, and may well have taken the corner as though dani wasn't there because he neither expected dani to be there nor thought he had any right to be there."



Really? What you wrote there makes no sence. Are you saying sic was blind and didn't see Dani coming alongside him and marginally ahead on his left side on the straight and then entering the corner on the inside?

My point is that it was a continuous incident, and you posted a video which conveniently only showed the conclusion. Simoncelli made a beautiful and quite elegant (particularly for him) move and rode straight around dani (hence the superior corner speed) at the previous corner, got completely clear of dani before moving across him and was the full length of his bike and then some (perhaps a third to half a bike length more) ahead. Dani then decided to attempt to re-pass him even though marco had just made up 4 seconds on him and had ridden around him on the previous corner, presumably because dani's tyres were shot. Dani is hence the one attempting the pass in the footage you posted, not simoncelli, and the onus is on him, unless you think some riders have more rights than other. At best he got level with marco (in my view and jumkie's view by braking too late for the next corner, and not imo in full control of his bike) as you have said yourself, which means he hadn't passed him. Simoncelli did not make a mistake , being in front was entitled to choose his line, in fact chose a similar line to the previous corner. Where else did dani think he was going to go, off the track? Why should simoncelli have to brake or change his line to accommodate dani? How were dani's actions any different than stoner's pass on bautista, which rightly attracted criticism, except that stoner came from less far back and actually managed to complete the pass albeit roughly without him or bautista going down?.I don't recall anyone criticising bautista for holding his line, there were in fact calls for stoner to be penalised.



The question for me is rather why dani decided to try and take that corner as though simoncelli wasn't there.



I haven't really entered the discussion about the misano incident, in my view barbera made a mistake, although I do take jumkie's point that dani, perhaps understandably as he no doubt saw his championship challenge ebbing after being relegated to the back of the grid through no fault of his own, was trying to make too many passes too quickly in heavy traffic. As jumkie has more or less said, he is playing with you, because you are arguing that in both cases the rider as fault was not dani, although it can be (in fact has been) argued that dani's involvements in the incidents were opposite cases.