This would have to be up there with some of the most nonsensical posts about race crashes I have read here.. Clearly Simoncelli knew that Pedrosa was there and gave him no room.Almost every top-level ex-racer has said the same (Gardner, Rainey, etc etc). Schwantz is a contrarian, but he has proven himself to be a fool.
Also, Pedrosa had no fault at all when taken down by Barbera, as PEDROSA PASSED HIM ON THE INSIDE BEFORE THE CORNER, THE MISTAKE BEING THAT bARBERA ATTEMPTED TO DUCK UP THE INSIDE (bloody caps lock engaged accidently) at the last minute by moving from the outside of Pedrosa to the inside. You, together with Jumkie are trying to rewrite history. Please remember, that quantity of posts garners you no extra wisdom. Jumkie clearly maintains his Pedrosa hatred from way back. Curiously, by both your current logic, Hayden was at fault for taking Pedrosa down in 2006! And I am surprised that Jumkie has not blamed Pedrosa for Hayden,s wall-flipping accident.
Now Michael, I understand that you don,t ride bikes, so it would be understandable that you lack wisdom regarding basic motorcycle physics. Jumkie should know better, but then he does ride a Ducati, so he would have no idea about front -end feel ,and how soon or late one can brake into a corner.
Its ok, BBSB. You make total sense. These pontificators don,t.
Its like saying that the Republican Party has the best interests of the working poor and unemployed at the heart of their policies. hahahaha
Is this just enough, or too much banter, Pete?
ps. Mike, when are we doing lunch?
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
Having read all of those, retrying Dani Stoner or Simoncelli needs the statute barred stamp on them and filing.
Dani can overtake the whole field at once, as long as he does it within the rules. Overtaking is a good thing, shame Stoner is retiring, he is getting rather good (and almost nasty) at it.
I make my point that there is no championship for Dani. He was gifted a 250cc title or two back in the early 2000's and then came to a class where Santa's favourite wasn't Dani, so getting a gift of a championship wasn't going to happen. I have a friend who is dyslexic and a devil worshipper, he sold his soul to Santa.
He had to upset the apple cart and he is honestly like the last Spanish premier class champ (Criville) pre Lorenzo (who is the real deal). He will only win it when there is no one else left, not by beating everyone else.
As you no doubt realise bunny, a lot of the time I am arguing for the sake of the argument. I don't have a horse in this race, and always thought dani was a better rider than poor marco. My assessment of the le mans 2011 incident was 60% simoncelli's fault, 40% dani's ie well within the limits of qualification for a racing incident. However if someone wants to argue it was all simoncelli's fault, I am happy to, can and have argued it was all dani's fault.
I respect your opinion on anything scientific, the mammalian snakebite stuff was fascinating, and I am sure you do know more about bikes than I do. However, if there is now evidence based veterinary science as there is evidence based medicine, which I imagine there is , you must be aware that expert opinion does not rate very highly as evidence these days, and you need to tell me why my argument, which I am well aware contains elements of sophistry (not to an alan jones the misogynist broadcaster rather than the F1 world champion extent though), is wrong.
Sure in the end marco shouldn't have turned in so sharply, and if he hadn't I am sure he could have still ridden around dani easily as he did in the previous corner. He was possessed of a rash temperament rather than psychotic though, and I don't think he expected dani to be there, either because dani had a minor lose and skidded across the track or braked too late as it appeared to me, or because he thought it was his corner and dani should give way, and I can see why he might have thought that way. As I have said, dani was trying to pass him, not the reverse, marco having already completed a clean pass on dani in the previous corner, and I don't see that dani ever got back past him or established priority for the corner in the straight preceding it.
To get into the realm of speculation, or further into that realm as you might see it, what was dani actually thinking? I think he was responding to the perceived wisdom (wrong imo at the time, and unfortunately later proved to be so) that marco was the coming thing and should get his hrc seat next year, and the very widespread perception/criticism that he (dani) never put up a fight once he was passed.
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
Dani is/was a better rider than Marco, but not 100% of the time. On that day Marco was in his minor % zone and all over Dani .
MM you make the interesting point (as to what Dani was thinking).
I have been prone to a little Dani bashing (opposed I suppose to bashing a little Dani?) but I think Dani is the benefactor of a few lifelines.
Marco was the up and comer. We know that SIC passed on (RIP) but Dani was safe.
Stoner came to HRT and got the long awaited 800cc crown for them. Then got sick of the realpolitik in motogp and retired. Dani was safe.
He earlier on said goodbye to Haystack (after 69 won the title) with Puig as his interpreter. Dani was safe.
By the time Marquez is brought along Dani will have made a career out of being the most highly paid factory rider ever to maintain a single ride for so long by being second best.
And that is why (in my humble opinion) SIC threw everything at the overtake, It is perhaps why Dani took it up the sphincter like a worn out whore. He's never had the desperation and could never ride around it. He likes it methodical and people like SIC (or hor-hey or Stoner and others as well) can surprise the little fellow.
Dani doesn't really have a desperate rider in him.
MM you make the interesting point (as to what Dani was thinking).
I have been prone to a little Dani bashing (opposed I suppose to bashing a little Dani?) but I think Dani is the benefactor of a few lifelines.
Marco was the up and comer. We know that SIC passed on (RIP) but Dani was safe.
Stoner came to HRT and got the long awaited 800cc crown for them. Then got sick of the realpolitik in motogp and retired. Dani was safe.
He earlier on said goodbye to Haystack (after 69 won the title) with Puig as his interpreter. Dani was safe.
By the time Marquez is brought along Dani will have made a career out of being the most highly paid factory rider ever to maintain a single ride for so long by being second best.
And that is why (in my humble opinion) SIC threw everything at the overtake, It is perhaps why Dani took it up the sphincter like a worn out whore. He's never had the desperation and could never ride around it. He likes it methodical and people like SIC (or hor-hey or Stoner and others as well) can surprise the little fellow.
Dani doesn't really have a desperate rider in him.
Joined Feb 2008
3K Posts | 470+
Outback Steakhouse
There's a Mrs. Jumkie???
OK, I take back any thoughts I had that he might have a Hayden poster on the ceiling of the bedroom
He has a blow up Nicky, but its looking a bit raggedy from the incessant battering it takes
The other applicable factor that they fail to take into account is that these guys aren't just riding around, they are at the limit - all the time.
There was no room left in Pedrosa's braking envelope to slow any more than he had, there was no more traction available at any increased angle of lean to avoid Simoncelli - that's how you get to be fast, by using the absolute limit of acceleration, braking and cornering to gain metres on your competition.
These bikes have brakes that if hit hard, can launch you over the front at top speed - nothing like a road brake. Riders like Pedrosa (especially) have fantastic feel of the balance between braking and grip and are running a very fine line.
When Simoncelli cut across the front of Pedrosa, he had nothing left to give to avoid going down. Their lines were completely different - Pedrosa the demon late braker, fast through the corner and on the gas as soon as practicable. Simoncelli took the fast in, stop in the corner turn and gas it out - the two methods were incompatible at that time.
I don't see Pedrosa being at fault - he was on the limit and a lack of options as well as physics became his enemy. Likewise Simoncelli, if ahead on the track, took a perfectly acceptable block pass manoeuvre that would stymie a competitor, but in that corner at that time he removed any options Pedrosa had to get out of trouble. It was as a result of cutting off Pedrosa's options that the incident happened.
Racing incident, which is what I said at the time and have said subsequently. If you like, both were injudicious. Dani wasn't going to be able to hold off someone who had made 4 seconds up on him for 11 more laps, simoncelli while making 4 (EDIT 2.1 ) seconds on dani had made no time on stoner who was then 7 seconds ahead (EDIT 4 seconds ahead after previous lap, 7 seconds at the end of the lap) and was unlikely to close this down in 11 laps. While it is true as I have already said that simoncelli turning in so sharply eventually caused the accident as you also say, dani doesn't pass him on that corner unless simoncelli concedes the corner. I repeat, simoncelli had already made a decisive and clean completed pass on dani, dani was trying to pass him back which he hadn't done as far as I can see.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
You could have said it was all Honda's fault. On their midget sized fuel limited bike Simmo was never going to overtake anyone on a straight, especially Pedro. So after passing him once only to be repassed yet again on the straight even i could hear Simmo's thought process, namely .... this im going into the corner first. Thats his only option. Pedro has many options. You'd think after 2006 Pedro would have learnt about sticking his nose in where it dont fit. His method was not compatible then either.
He could have held off till after the corner and picked him off. It was probably the one corner on the track that would have caused this result...
C'est la vie.
C'est la vie.
Exactly, and that is why Simoncelli did the wrong thing. He gave Dani no way out.
This is clear and logical. Any other explanation makes no sense. Michael is clearly capable of intelligent analysis, but is not showing it in this case.
Goaty, im ignoring u.
Oh, and wake me up when Bunny has something insightful and logical to say. It hasnt happened for many years now, i dont expect him to start now.
Character assassination. haha
A shame, because in many areas you show wisdom beyond your ken, but remain blinded by "Hayden Syndrome"
ps, I have a spare bed for you to stay, and we can both try and find Barry and see if he really does exist!
........or you could have lunch with Michael if you prefer. Ok its lunch then, ..........but my offer is still open. ( house rules though... no tequila after 10pm haha)
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I certainly don't maintain that simoncelli had good judgement in general, I think the discussion at the time for those who saw this as a racing incident was that the other incidents in which he had shown poor judgement previously led to his penalty for this one. One of them needed to concede the corner, and I think dani was also absolutely determined not to concede the corner no matter what and could have had a fair idea where simoncelli was going. If he had got clearly past marco on the straight then fair enough, but I don't see that he did. Simoncelli had made up 2.1 seconds in 6 laps, and had easily passed dani on the previous corner where he got well past dani before going anywhere near his line, and as I say I think dani was motivated by things other than the race and championship situation.
