800's to end in 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Jul 20 2009, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are exhausting!! This is such a simple concept. Making more power from a small power plant is more expensive than making the same power from a larger power plant.

Now get lost!

Well you keep thinking simple fella


the "now get lost " comment ........ just a tad churlish .....

where do you envisage the Extra cost would come in in a smaller engine?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 19 2009, 07:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes Rog. I do ....... why do you think otherwise?

Have you discovered a magic counter for friction? for momentum? for inertia?

It's not nearly that simple. There are several issues you're glossing over.

For a 750 to make the same power, you're going to need to spin it faster. Stress rises exponentially with RPM, mandating heavier con rods, cranks, etc. Bearing journal area will need to rise as well, largely canceling the hypothetical 'lower drag.' Lubricant drag also scales, again exponentially, with revs, so your faster reving 750 will be dumping more heat into he oil and running less efficiently.

Then there are pumping losses - the energy required to move the air and exhaust gasses through the engine. Again, its a fluid dynamic situation with required energy following an exponential curve up.

All these factors conspire to make smaller, higher revving race motors just as thirsty, if not more so, than bigger ones.


IMO, killing the stupid fuel limit would have an immediate benefit on both racing and development expense. Who knows how many millions have been pissed away developing the gas mizer software that runs on ECU. Remember how Honda needed the better part of a season to get it right? How many thousands of man-hours did they squander? Racing would likely improve too, with riders free to push as hard as they like for the entire race, without worrying about the f-ing bike throttling down in the dying laps.

Fuel economy is nice, but Dorna has vastly over emphasized it, harming the sport in the process.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 19 2009, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If 990's were so great, why have the 800's produced faster bikes? and far better racing?


From what region in your brain do this come from??? I suggets the part closest to your .......07-08 would have to go on the record as 2 of the most boring seasons of racing ever, especially 07!

I think I might have to come up a special tune for you Bazza, like this one for the Pink one...

The Brothers Gibb decided they would dedicate this one 'from the Pink one 2 Casey'


More than a Woman

Oh, Case I need you very much
I've seen you riding everyday
the way you move that big red duck
always takes my breath away.

Suddenly you cross the line
beaten again its true
you know I’ll be there when you have a cry
keep the big bad wog…. (flu!Anemia?) from you.


Here in your arms I found my paradise
my Stoner shirts are all stained
could you get me more I need one tonight

Oh say you'll always let me suck it
I can make it shine, we can be forever
now just take me from behind.


Sing it with me boys!!

More than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, oh, oh, oh.


Racers they can be so rough
I like it that way too
And I know Laguna ...... you up
So I still flog to 07 clips on youtube.

Reflecting on how fast you ride (me)
Mastering the horsepower
the way you make that monster slide
And just punish it for many hours.


Straight line speed is the way to win
this is the only way to go
so get the men in red to dial it in.

Then you'll smack the field again
by 20 secs each time, then I can abuse the .... out of
those pricks on Powerslide…..!


All together now!!

More than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, oh, oh, oh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 20 2009, 06:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From what region in your brain do this come from??? I suggets the part closest to your .......07-08 would have to go on the record as 2 of the most boring seasons of racing ever, especially 07!

I think I might have to come up a special tune for you Bazza, like this one for the Pink one...

The Brothers Gibb decided they would dedicate this one 'from the Pink one 2 Casey'


More than a Woman

Oh, Case I need you very much
I've seen you riding everyday
the way you move that big red duck
always takes my breath away.

Suddenly you cross the line
beaten again its true
you know I’ll be there when you have a cry
keep the big bad wog…. (flu!Anemia?) from you.


Here in your arms I found my paradise
my Stoner shirts are all stained
could you get me more I need one tonight

Oh say you'll always let me suck it
I can make it shine, we can be forever
now just take me from behind.


Sing it with me boys!!

More than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, oh, oh, oh.


Racers they can be so rough
I like it that way too
And I know Laguna ...... you up
So I still flog to 07 clips on youtube.

Reflecting on how fast you ride (me)
Mastering the horsepower
the way you make that monster slide
And just punish it for many hours.


Straight line speed is the way to win
this is the only way to go
so get the men in red to dial it in.

Then you'll smack the field again
by 20 secs each time, then I can abuse the .... out of
those pricks on Powerslide…..!


All together now!!

More than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, OH Caseey more than a woman to Pinky……da,da…..da,da,der
more than a woman, oh, oh, oh.


stick to making the tea berry cos you sure know .... all about engines !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jul 20 2009, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>For a 750 to make the same power, you're going to need to spin it faster. Stress rises exponentially with RPM, mandating heavier con rods, cranks, etc. Bearing journal area will need to rise as well, largely canceling the hypothetical 'lower drag.' Lubricant drag also scales, again exponentially, with revs, so your faster reving 750 will be dumping more heat into he oil and running less efficiently.

Then there are pumping losses - the energy required to move the air and exhaust gasses through the engine. Again, its a fluid dynamic situation with required energy following an exponential curve up.

All these factors conspire to make smaller, higher revving race motors just as thirsty, if not more so, than bigger ones.

If indeed they were factors

I think you need to hanve a bit more of a think about what you are saying there.

Bearings bigger!! ?

Conrods Bigger!!??

No you haven't got that right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 20 2009, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If indeed they were factors

I think you need to hanve a bit more of a think about what you are saying there.

Bearings bigger!! ?

Conrods Bigger!!??

No you haven't got that right.
Well because of the risipricating mass i.e piston, rings gudgeon pin and its said about 1/3 of the con rod is risipricating mass having to stop then accelerate twice per stroke , i think its quite possible a larger bearing journal area would be needed to cope with these extra forces due to the higher rev ceiling. I assume geonerd means larger conrod as in the bearing area of the rod.

You said.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>as I've said to you once or twice before, I bothered to study some of those concepts for a few years, how about you get off the couch, stop sooking and do something to learn.

what exactly did you study ? because you sure have missed quite a few obvious things here !
Your being very arrogant in this thread berry, several members have spent the time to try and explain the obvious to you yet you continue to flog that dead horse. You remind me of our other ........ engineer we have on this board.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 20 2009, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well because of the risipricating mass i.e piston, rings gudgeon pin and its said about 1/3 of the con rod is risipricating mass having to stop then accelerate twice per stroke , i think its quite possible a larger bearing journal area would be needed to cope with these extra forces due to the higher rev ceiling. I assume geonerd means larger conrod as in the bearing area of the rod.

You said.


what exactly did you study ? because you sure have missed quite a few obvious things here !
Your being very arrogant in this thread berry, several members have spent the time to try and explain the obvious to you yet you continue to flog that dead horse. You remind me of our other ........ engineer we have on this board.
Wasting your time Rog, you cannot expect someone, who by his own admission, knows it ALL to entertain an opinion contrary to theirs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Jul 20 2009, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wasting your time Rog, you cannot expect someone, who by his own admission, knows it ALL to entertain an opinion contrary to theirs.
yeah i know mate. im just reading through all my old collage folders from yester year
heres a little tast for you berry, if you need more schooling i wont charge you much

this shoul;d give you an idea of some of the forces involved ant the difference between long and short stroke motors. None of this is googled !

Crank to reciprocating parts ratio.

1/3 rod weight + piston, ring,clips and pin. We will say for an example 500g.

<u>500g</u>
180 = 1.38g per degree

<u>500g</u>
90 = 5.55g per degree

<u>555g</u>
1.38g = 4.02 g average

4.02 x
<u>180</u>
723.6 grams

<u>723.6g</u>
500g = 1.44:1 ratio

This does not allow for length of crank throw. Crank throw is equal to half engine stroke.
Rod length is equal to 2 x engine stroke. A long stroke engine has a longer rod which at 90 and 270 will have less acute angle there for the piston will accelerate slower than a short stroke engine. A long stroke engine will also have a longer crank throw which means the crank weights are further away from the cranks centre axis which will have more leverage (inertia) giving the effect of a greater weight.


The conrod is normally 2 x the engines stroke. But in some casesa longer rod may be used. The advantage of this is the con rod has a less acute angle then the engine with the short rod.This wouls allow the engines revs to be increased . This engine would also have less vibration then the engine with the short rod.The long rod engine would also have a straighter reciprecating motion reducing piston, ring and liner wear. The disadvantage to this engine is it would have to be much taller making it less compactable and more expensive to produce due to the excess material needed.Also the long rod motor would be more suseptible to torchional stresses and would increase the weight of the reciprecation parts. So you see berry, its not so simple, its a real trade off. Reducing cc and keeping power involves a lot more than your brain can comprehend.

at the end of the day they have put 250's upto 600cc... they wont be putting motogp to 750 or anyless than 800... we will see 990+cc with a larger fuel capacity (hopefully).

developement has increased alot in the last few years my guess is if the 990's stayed and followed this path of development they would trounce the 800cc bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Jul 20 2009, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>at the end of the day they have put 250's upto 600cc... they wont be putting motogp to 750 or anyless than 800... we will see 990+cc with a larger fuel capacity (hopefully).

developement has increased alot in the last few years my guess is if the 990's stayed and followed this path of development they would trounce the 800cc bikes.
I dont think anybody with more than 2 brain cells would argue with that

It seems to me the 800's are just coming good, this season so far has been as good as some of the 990cc efforts. I'm loving it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 20 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems to me the 800's are just coming good, this season so far has been as good as some of the 990cc efforts. I'm loving it
The 990's were great and there was no need to change to 800. that change cost to much money and is part of the reason there are so few bikes on the grid, but after 2 full seasons they are starting to produce good racing at factory level. not so good for the sat or private teams though. Gone are the days when you see a bike like team KR's nearly winning a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 20 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems to me the 800's are just coming good, this season so far has been as good as some of the 990cc efforts. I'm loving it
The 990's were great and there was no need to change to 800. that change cost to much money and is part of the reason there are so few bikes on the grid, but after 2 full seasons they are starting to produce good racing at factory level. not so good for the sat or private teams though. Gone are the days when you see a bike like team KR's nearly winning a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 20 2009, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 990's were great and there was no need to change to 800. that change cost to much money and is part of the reason there are so few bikes on the grid, but after 2 full seasons they are starting to produce good racing at factory level. not so good for the sat or private teams though. Gone are the days when you see a bike like team KR's nearly winning a race.

Maybe once the top factories find their feet with these bikes the good stuff can filter down. If the rules change again we'll just see a repeat. Unless the sport is changed dramatically to suit private teams and chassis builders at the expense of the facotry teams, which seems to be the way things could head.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 20 2009, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe once the top factories find their feet with these bikes the good stuff can filter down. If the rules change again we'll just see a repeat. Unless the sport is changed dramatically to suit private teams and chassis builders at the expense of the facotry teams, which seems to be the way things could head.
maybe we wont have a motogp series for anything to filter down. Next year is looking bleak

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 20 2009, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>maybe we wont have a motogp series for anything to filter down. Next year is looking bleak

Is it? Why so?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 20 2009, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 990's were great and there was no need to change to 800. that change cost to much money and is part of the reason there are so few bikes on the grid, but after 2 full seasons they are starting to produce good racing at factory level. not so good for the sat or private teams though. Gone are the days when you see a bike like team KR's nearly winning a race.

+1

totally agree.. at the moment they may aswell have a different race for factory and sattelite teams...best effort ive seen since the 800's was elias last season i think.

when the 990's were around there was a lot more competition for factory vs sattelite teams.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 20 2009, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is it? Why so?
the amount of bike on the grid. the teams pulling out and the others that are struggling to compete or get sponsors willing to pay the money needed. maybe you know of some new teams or big money sponsors in the pipeline ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 20 2009, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe once the top factories find their feet with these bikes the good stuff can filter down. If the rules change again we'll just see a repeat. Unless the sport is changed dramatically to suit private teams and chassis builders at the expense of the facotry teams, which seems to be the way things could head.


filter down to sattelite teams maybe but what like 2 or 3 years down the line..by then factory teams will be at a new level so still be pointless, this is the huge part of the problem cost...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 20 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the amount of bike on the grid. the teams pulling out and the others that are struggling to compete or get sponsors willing to pay the money needed. maybe you know of some new teams or big money sponsors in the pipeline ??

I heard that Aspar should be in next year, possibly with two bikes and that there might be one more Honda. I'm gussing things will pan out about the same as this year in terms of numbers.