2021 Grand Prix Deutschland / Sachsenring

michaelm said:

I meant the Red Bull product, not the KTM product. Love their off road bikes.

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michaelm said:

And great credit to KTM for doing so, but hardly surprising as I said with the record they have in various forms of bike racing and initial concessions designed to help them become competitive, as well as plentiful funding from Red Bull who have succeeded against the likes of Mercedes in F1, and also seem to have the best talent identification/talent development program going in gp bike racing given the identity of the leading 2 riders in moto 2 and the leading rider in moto 3, not that I have much time for their product.

I have no particular attachment to Honda other than being grateful to them for providing equipment on which Australian riders I followed won 7 world titles, but in this instance prefer to give credit to KTM and their riders. Gresini are switching from Aprilia not Honda to Ducati btw, who were also flogged by KTM in this race, but sure the quality of the Honda product was very likely involved in their defection some time back indicating the problems with the Honda bike are of some standing. The possibility exists that their threat to with draw when the control ECU came in was genuine, and I guess we shall see how committed they are to gp bike racing when they finish with F1 after this season. Some schadenfreude with their results sans MM is understandable, but I would still prefer to see them continue in the sport.

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Keshav said:

My bad… I wrote too fast, but they were running Hondas before Aprilia.

Certainly, no one should be surprised, but it was I think a creditable accomplishment. My point was, Honda doesn’t seem to take note of the tides rising up to their noses. I think BTW - Honda were bluffing.

As to brand loyalty, yes, that is a thing of childhood days. It’s whoever makes the best machine. I love that they made bikes that Spencer et al rode to championships and I get a nice twinge of nostalgia when I see photos of my fave riders on those bikes, but my buying habits are unaffected by any of that. Haven’t owned a Japanese bike in a while. Currently riding a tweaked out BMW F800R, and two Husky supermotos, which are KTMs in Swede cosmetics. I had a KTM SXF450 kitted out as a supermoto up until a year and a half ago, really great bike for the tight twisty back roads up here in the mountains. Only sold it to buy a 511 smr because I wanted fuel injection.

And of course nobody wants Honda to leave the sport. I’d just like to see them make a more tractable bike so the other three Honda riders would have a shot at being in the mix, A - because I hate watching talented riders unable to live up to their potential on wanky equipment, and B - because on better equipment, they add more to the show by being in the pointy end of things.

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misfit said:

Maverick:

“Every rider has to have his own set-up.
“It can't be that I've been using my rival's set-up for two years.
“Every rider has his style, and every day they are teaching me how to ride: take the brake, leave the brake. Open the throttle, close the throttle.
“I have to be patient. I don't want to use Fabio's set-up because I don't ride like him, and that doesn't work for me.
“I want them to make a bike for me. I don't want to be using other people's set-up every day.
“I'm not here to take data or to be a test rider. This is starting to seem disrespectful.
“With someone else's set-up I don't think I can win. I've been gathering information since Portugal.”​

OTOH, this is what Pol had to say after witnessing MM win on the Honda:

“Honestly, I was following my line [with bike set-up] because I felt it was good but in today’s race… in the time attack I was not too bad, I was fast, even on the race pace,” Espargaro explained.
“But after today’s result, it’s not that Marc is winning because of the bike, but I’m saying that to understand that I need to do what he is doing, I need to use exactly the same bike.
“So, like that I’m going to understand exactly how he is doing and how I need to ride this bike on the 100% levels as he does.
“Today was the first time I [finished] so much time [behind] my team-mate. I think I never took 14 seconds to my team-mate and it’s opened my eyes.


“I mean, from now on I think I’m just going to try to copy Marc’s settings, Marc’s chassis – because he’s using a different one to us – and I’m going to copy his line,” he added.
“Till that moment, we were not very far away in rhythm, in lap time, but this race it’s a step and for sure I’m very happy for all the team and all the guys who have been working so much, even for Marc.
“But the point is that for sure Marc showed the performance of the bike today and I need to be on that level.
“So, the only way I see is to copy his settings, his bike, his chassis as soon as possible and then go in his line.
“From that moment on there is no excuses, I need to do what he does or else I’m too slow for that bike. That’s it.”
​

What contrasting attitudes from frustrated teammates!!

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misfit said:

Maverick:

“Every rider has to have his own set-up.
“It can't be that I've been using my rival's set-up for two years.
“Every rider has his style, and every day they are teaching me how to ride: take the brake, leave the brake. Open the throttle, close the throttle.
“I have to be patient. I don't want to use Fabio's set-up because I don't ride like him, and that doesn't work for me.
“I want them to make a bike for me. I don't want to be using other people's set-up every day.
“I'm not here to take data or to be a test rider. This is starting to seem disrespectful.
“With someone else's set-up I don't think I can win. I've been gathering information since Portugal.”​

OTOH, this is what Pol had to say after witnessing MM win on the Honda:

“Honestly, I was following my line [with bike set-up] because I felt it was good but in today’s race… in the time attack I was not too bad, I was fast, even on the race pace,” Espargaro explained.
“But after today’s result, it’s not that Marc is winning because of the bike, but I’m saying that to understand that I need to do what he is doing, I need to use exactly the same bike.
“So, like that I’m going to understand exactly how he is doing and how I need to ride this bike on the 100% levels as he does.
“Today was the first time I [finished] so much time [behind] my team-mate. I think I never took 14 seconds to my team-mate and it’s opened my eyes.


“I mean, from now on I think I’m just going to try to copy Marc’s settings, Marc’s chassis – because he’s using a different one to us – and I’m going to copy his line,” he added.
“Till that moment, we were not very far away in rhythm, in lap time, but this race it’s a step and for sure I’m very happy for all the team and all the guys who have been working so much, even for Marc.
“But the point is that for sure Marc showed the performance of the bike today and I need to be on that level.
“So, the only way I see is to copy his settings, his bike, his chassis as soon as possible and then go in his line.
“From that moment on there is no excuses, I need to do what he does or else I’m too slow for that bike. That’s it.”
​

What contrasting attitudes from frustrated teammates!!

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michaelm said:

Unfortunately I suspect both of them are equally screwed.

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p4p1 said:

i think Maverick at least has a chance at winning a race. Pol IMO underperformed terribly on the m1 and was unable to win on a race winning bike during his time at KTM. Now on the much harder Honda? I just don't see it happening.

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michaelm said:

Yes, sure, he could get it together for a race or two, but I think he is very likely finished as a Yamaha factory rider, and I wonder where he goes from there. Easy in retrospect, but he would likely have been better off staying with Suzuki, perhaps not financially though, and he has still won several more premier class GP races than most.

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JPSLotus said:

I had to go back and look at Vinales' results on the Suzuki the two years he rode there because I couldn't remember what his results looked like. 12th in '15 and 4th in '16 in the final standings. If you look at it and compare it to his Yamaha results, he isn't performing all that much differently, but the caveat is he can't beat his teammate all that much, so his performances are looking all the more glaring. When Rossi was still in the factory team, it was more like shooting fish in a barrel to beat Rossi, Fabio is a different breed though.

I do believe everything with Vinales is down to mental weakness at this present time. I also do believe he can overcome it because he has all the talent. He's just not good at putting it into action in races consistently. My thought is he's going to get sacked at Yamaha at season's end unless something drastically changes, or Yamaha doesn't have a better option. He might be the sort of racer who can shine better in a lower pressure environment, e.g. not Yamaha, Honda, or Ducati. He wouldn't be the first racer who didn't take well to being in a top team. Problem for him is the available seats for '22 appear to be extremely limited now, so he's either going to need to step up, or find himself on either a satellite machine, or entirely out of GP perhaps. The latter scenario is really fantastical to me when you consider how everyone thought a world title for him was happening soon back when he joined Yamaha in 2017.

I do feel for Vinales because I've gone through similar struggles in sports where testing/practice, everything is fine and great, then when it counts for something, you couldn't pull a good result out of your ... even if you had a roadmap on how to do it. It's entirely mental when you're at that level. Also why Marquez was better than anyone on the grid for so long, his mental toughness is incredible, and while he was exhibiting frustration lately, he buckled down and rode the race of his life Sunday. He believed in himself even when no one else did. Is there even anyone currently on the grid that you can point to and say they would be able to achieve this? I don't think there is right now. Look at Lorenzo after the Assen crash. He completely shutdown after that, and I don't necessarily blame him given what happened. But he's a multi-time world champion and even he couldn't get over the hump. MM also mentioned talking to Doohan on the phone about the injury made a huge difference. Right now, the only way I see Vinales doing anything of that nature is to strengthen his mental game. Reading all of those quotes misfit posted is not the sign of a guy who is close to making a breakthrough...more like a guy about to have a breakdown.

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Macca said:

I'm still not convinced that the majority of these issues aren't caused by the single tyre supplier and the development path Yamaha took (Mav's obvious mental frailty aside).

Even when Rossi was still in the factory team with Lorenzo, they heavily favoured Jorge's super high speed corning style (which I believe Rossi couldn't use simply due to his physical size putting too much stress into the rear) - Not so unreasonable as he was fast and winning on the regular.

When Fabio jumped on the satellite Yamaha, it was reported that he was shown Jorge's data and was told 'that's how you ride this bike quickly' and apparently he's been doing just that ever since.

With the way the Michelins have been developed, it seems to be funnelling the way the Yamaha, and all bikes in general it would seem, towards a single riding style for each manufacturer.

This is basically what Mav seems to be saying, Yamaha appear going down the route of 'Fabio is fast on the bike, use his setup and ride like him'

Rossi may well be old and past it, but his comments all year have basically been similar - He can't use a Fabio style setup/ riding style as the rear can't handle the stress of his bigger build for more than a handful of laps.

I'm also pretty sure if you gave the teams more testing time with the contracted riders, they would find solutions to most of these issues in a pretty short time-frame.

I hope Maverick gets some results soon, it would be a massive shame to see his career slide down the pan from here...

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Macca said:

I'm still not convinced that the majority of these issues aren't caused by the single tyre supplier and the development path Yamaha took (Mav's obvious mental frailty aside).

Even when Rossi was still in the factory team with Lorenzo, they heavily favoured Jorge's super high speed corning style (which I believe Rossi couldn't use simply due to his physical size putting too much stress into the rear) - Not so unreasonable as he was fast and winning on the regular.

When Fabio jumped on the satellite Yamaha, it was reported that he was shown Jorge's data and was told 'that's how you ride this bike quickly' and apparently he's been doing just that ever since.

With the way the Michelins have been developed, it seems to be funnelling the way the Yamaha, and all bikes in general it would seem, towards a single riding style for each manufacturer.

This is basically what Mav seems to be saying, Yamaha appear going down the route of 'Fabio is fast on the bike, use his setup and ride like him'

Rossi may well be old and past it, but his comments all year have basically been similar - He can't use a Fabio style setup/ riding style as the rear can't handle the stress of his bigger build for more than a handful of laps.

I'm also pretty sure if you gave the teams more testing time with the contracted riders, they would find solutions to most of these issues in a pretty short time-frame.

I hope Maverick gets some results soon, it would be a massive shame to see his career slide down the pan from here...

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Macca said:

I'm still not convinced that the majority of these issues aren't caused by the single tyre supplier and the development path Yamaha took (Mav's obvious mental frailty aside).

Even when Rossi was still in the factory team with Lorenzo, they heavily favoured Jorge's super high speed corning style (which I believe Rossi couldn't use simply due to his physical size putting too much stress into the rear) - Not so unreasonable as he was fast and winning on the regular.

When Fabio jumped on the satellite Yamaha, it was reported that he was shown Jorge's data and was told 'that's how you ride this bike quickly' and apparently he's been doing just that ever since.

With the way the Michelins have been developed, it seems to be funnelling the way the Yamaha, and all bikes in general it would seem, towards a single riding style for each manufacturer.

This is basically what Mav seems to be saying, Yamaha appear going down the route of 'Fabio is fast on the bike, use his setup and ride like him'

Rossi may well be old and past it, but his comments all year have basically been similar - He can't use a Fabio style setup/ riding style as the rear can't handle the stress of his bigger build for more than a handful of laps.

I'm also pretty sure if you gave the teams more testing time with the contracted riders, they would find solutions to most of these issues in a pretty short time-frame.

I hope Maverick gets some results soon, it would be a massive shame to see his career slide down the pan from here...

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Bern1 said:

For sure it’s mental with Mav. I think there are many illustrations of this, but the best was the contrasting reactions of Mav and Jack when MM was looking for a tow.

On Mav sacking the crew chief: there are two ways to look at this, one being it’s the crew chief’s fault for Mav’s results and the other is that Mav himself is responsible for relaying correct, accurate info to the crew chief for action. I’m not sure Mav is reliable for set up info.

The interesting thing is that they do get it right on occasion.

It’s interesting to see just what a thin line everybody walks on. A tire here, a handling quirk there or a slight change in riding style can make or break a season and a rider’s entire career.

Also, after 2-3 years with mediocre results, the train moves on without you. I’m pretty sure Pol is headed for the exit. At least Rins and Mir have a victory here and there.

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Macca said:

Are we sure that Mav actually sacked his crew Chief?

The statement that I saw from Mav said that it was a decision that Yamaha made and that he had nothing to do with it..

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