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warthog1 said:
Michelin have changed the front tyre also apparently.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/...p/whats-up-with-michelins-motogp-tyres-part-2
That aint working so well on the Honda, or the KTM prior to the chassis change at this event.
Click to expand...
I think the tyre change has certainly impacted some more than others. As to what extent that is the problem I cant say not being a MotoGP rider or engineer. It could be that it just added to the "Perfect storm" of injured No1 rider and lack of development. I will qualify that. Honda did make a large improvement in the top speed of the machine.
 
Bern1 said:
Doohan showed that he could ask for a change from Honda and get it. (Big Bang engine back.) His results and standing within the team gave him that capability.

Marquez could do the same. We know his skills as a rider. The question is, does he have the skills to move the development of the bike forward in his favor? This involves close communication and cooperation within the team between the rider and crew to determine possible improvements, then communication with the engineers to move the needle in testing and development in a direction that will bear fruit. No easy task and no sign that Marquez has this particular talent in spades like , say, Lorenzo or Doohan apparently did.

Marquez is riding the Honda like Gardner did, just get on it and ride it like it was a bucking bronco. Marquez may be a more gifted rider than Gardner, but that may not be enough any longer.
Click to expand...

That’s the difference between Doohan and Marquez. I’ve seen little evidence of Marquez demanding a more rideable bike. He’s well aware of his immense talent and has been happy to have a Honda that nobody else can ride.

Doohan OTH - demanded a change that benefitted all the other riders who got bikes w the Big Bang engine. Doohan didn’t give damn if other riders had an equally competitive bike.
 
Keshav said:
Respectfully disagree with your thinking mate. The bike handles like ..... Marquez could have easily bagged those championships on a Yamaha or Ducati. It’s the same dynamic as when Stoner won on the Ducati. The bike was a crap-handling missile guided by an “Alien”. That’s why Honda were so eager to hire Stoner. Simply put, Honda is famous for paying wunderkind riders to make their poor handling bikes look good. The Honda engineers are legendarily almost cultishly arrogant, going back to when Spencer was racing for them and Erv Kanemoto secretly had a private company build chassis for Freddie’s bike because Honda engineers were deaf to his pleas for refinements in the chassis. IIRC - HRC fired him for doing so even tho Spencer won the championship, a pretty good illustration of just how bull-headed those guys can be.



Ducati people were not unalike, only starting to be open to outside input when all the Rossi-inspired sponsorship money started flowing in, with provisos of their acceptance of help from non-Italian engineers.
Click to expand...
You are free to disagree.
Howrver the 6 titles do back my point.
Marquez got the motor and the front end he needed. Make time on entry and hold the fastest bikes on exit and down the straight.
Nobody else has been able to do on a motorcycle what Marquez was able to on that Honda on Bridgestone and then Michelin on corner entry.
It is likely he may have won on the Yamaha, maybe the Duke and maybe the Suzuki.
Likely or possible.
Regardless, he did on the Honda and may again. We will see.
If he doesn't I'll be disappointed as I love his ability to stuff that bike into a corner and out the other side.
If he doesn't, Honda have won more than anyone else so I don't doubt their ability to create a winning machine.
 
Doohan went away from the big bang and back to the screamer.
He could ride it and nobody else could at his level.
Despite his supreme ability he wasn't beyond playing with other's heads.
Did what he could to dominate and win.
 
warthog1 said:
You are free to disagree.
Howrver the 6 titles do back my point.
Marquez got the motor and the front end he needed. Make time on entry and hold the fastest bikes on exit and down the straight.
Nobody else has been able to do on a motorcycle what Marquez was able to on that Honda on Bridgestone and then Michelin on corner entry.
It is likely he may have won on the Yamaha, maybe the Duke and maybe the Suzuki.
Likely or possible.
Regardless, he did on the Honda and may again. We will see.
If he doesn't I'll be disappointed as I love his ability to stuff that bike into a corner and out the other side.
If he doesn't, Honda have won more than anyone else so I don't doubt their ability to create a winning machine.
Click to expand...

As has been said so many time, stats can be used to point out whatever belief a person has in mind.

The reality is, the wins were all about Marquez - DESPITE the bike's poor handling. When you look at all the talented Honda riders who've with a few minor exceptions, been consistently 8 to 12 positions behind that is a pretty damning indictment of the HRC's engineering design.

I have to say, given the paucity of wins on Hondas over the last two seasons, your faith in their ability to make a winning machine doesn't seem well-founded.
 
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Keshav said:
As has been said so many time, stats can be used to point out whatever belief a person has in mind.

The reality is, the wins were all about Marquez - DESPITE the bike's poor handling. When you look at all the talented Honda riders who've with a few minor exceptions, been consistently 8 to 12 positions behind that is a pretty damning indictment of the HRC's engineering design.

I have to say, given the paucity of wins on Hondas over the last two seasons, your faith in their ability to make a winning machine doesn't seem well-founded.
Click to expand...
Who else have you seen on the Honda capable of riding the machine like Marquez?
Nobody?
I haven't ether.
The bike is crafted to meet his demands.
It did that very, very well.
Without him they are in trouble in the short term.
However they recognised his talent, gave him the bike he required and signed him for 4 years.
They had the best rider, gave him the bike he needed and kept him out of other's hands.
Seems a logical approach to me.
If he can't get back to his winning ways the bike will change.
They have certainly been capable of doing it before.
 
Last edited:
warthog1 said:
Doohan went away from the big bang and back to the screamer.
He could ride it and nobody else could at his level.
Despite his supreme ability he wasn't beyond playing with other's heads.
Did what he could to dominate and win.
Click to expand...

That is my recollection as well. Also iirc Honda were in the habit at one stage of giving his settings to the other Honda riders which didn’t best please Mick
 
Keshav said:
As has been said so many time, stats can be used to point out whatever belief a person has in mind.

The reality is, the wins were all about Marquez - DESPITE the bike's poor handling. When you look at all the talented Honda riders who've with a few minor exceptions, been consistently 8 to 12 positions behind that is a pretty damning indictment of the HRC's engineering design.

I have to say, given the paucity of wins on Hondas over the last two seasons, your faith in their ability to make a winning machine doesn't seem well-founded.
Click to expand...

They have a history of making intractable bikes which adhere to some abstruse engineering philosophy, the aforementioned Mick Doohan is on the record as saying one of the most important things he had to do was to stop the Honda engineers from “improving’” the bike. The brutal Honda 500 was reputedly much tamed towards the end of the 500s though, maybe significantly down to Mick and JB, and the Honda 990 bike was a famously great and rideable bike.

I agree they are in strife if MM doesn’t go back to being MM, I am unsure who they can get to guide the development of a more tractable bike, they tried with Lorenzo but their existing bike attempted to kill him, they have burnt their bridges with Dani Pedrosa, Stoner is long retired and suffering from CFS. I can’t say I would be too upset if they blame Puig.
 
michaelm said:
They have a history of making intractable bikes which adhere to some abstruse engineering philosophy, the aforementioned Mick Doohan is on the record as saying one of the most important things he had to do was to stop the Honda engineers from “improving’” the bike. The brutal Honda 500 was reputedly much tamed towards the end of the 500s though, maybe significantly down to Mick and JB, and the Honda 990 bike was a famously great and rideable bike.

I agree they are in strife if MM doesn’t go back to being MM, I am unsure who they can get to guide the development of a more tractable bike, they tried with Lorenzo but their existing bike attempted to kill him, they have burnt their bridges with Dani Pedrosa, Stoner is long retired and suffering from CFS. I can’t say I would be too upset if they blame Puig.
Click to expand...

Got to agree mate. I think that even if MM gets back to full fitness he will struggle to be the dominant force he has been because of the machinery advances of the others. Who will lead that development is also a great question. One which, I suspect, is being discussed in Honda board rooms as we speak. It is gong to be very interesting watching the events unfold.
 
warthog1 said:
Who else have you seen on the Honda capable of riding the machine like Marquez?
Nobody?
I haven't ether.
The bike is crafted to meet his demands.
It did that very, very well.
Without him they are in trouble in the short term.
However they recognised his talent, gave him the bike he required and signed him for 4 years.
They had the best rider, gave him the bike he needed and kept him out of other's hands.
Seems a logical approach to me.
If he can't get back to his winning ways the bike will change.
They have certainly been capable of doing it before.
Click to expand...
I go both ways. Honda for sure are happy with the 6 titles, but are also unlikely to be happy about the prospect of a 3rd uncompetitive year if MM is still physically hampered and unable to ride with his hitherto career long confidence, and I wonder whether the current tire suits him, or Rossi for that matter. The top guys seem to be more Lorenzo style riders and I wonder if Michelin have gone in that direction. As has been said having rookie Alex Marquez as the other factory rider was also problematic when MM went down.
 
michaelm said:
I agree they are in strife if MM doesn’t go back to being MM, I am unsure who they can get to guide the development of a more tractable bike, they tried with Lorenzo but their existing bike attempted to kill him, they have burnt their bridges with Dani Pedrosa, Stoner is long retired and suffering from CFS. I can’t say I would be too upset if they blame Puig.
Click to expand...


I woudl still very much credit Pedrosa for Honda success throughout his tenure. He was the one consistent development factor for them from 2006 up until 2014. From 2014 onward is when i see that MM took over development, and since then only MM was able to win conistently for HRC. Besides injury from 2014 to 2018 Dani was less and less able to ride MM's Pig HRC.

Dani since retirement has been the KTM test rider, and all signs are pointing to an improved and improving bike....some of that is down to Dani....and as we can see the KTM is rideable by most of their riders....

HRC are in trouble with or without MM...
 
warthog1 said:
Who else have you seen on the Honda capable of riding the machine like Marquez?
Nobody?
I haven't ether.
The bike is crafted to meet his demands.
It did that very, very well.
Without him they are in trouble in the short term.
However they recognised his talent, gave him the bike he required and signed him for 4 years.
They had the best rider, gave him the bike he needed and kept him out of other's hands.
Seems a logical approach to me.
If he can't get back to his winning ways the bike will change.
They have certainly been capable of doing it before.
Click to expand...

Why you insist on clinging to this flawed conceit is beyond me.

You keep trying to convince me that Marquez is talented. Has anyone said otherwise?

If Honda were as clever as you insist they are, given they knew MM was not going to be in contention this year, they'd have made a more tractable bike. But they didn't.

If no other rider, with one freakish exception, in two seasons can even get a Honda on the podium, the problem is clearly the bike.

HRC are alleged to be in the business of making competitive machinery, but if the bike is only competitive in the hands of one rider, it's not a competitive design. HRC seem really to be in the business of out-spending other factories to glom on to freakishly talented guys who can ride around the deficits of the engineering department.
 
Last edited:
As mentioned, the tale of the teammates tells the story. On the KTM Pol could “almost win.” On the Honda he can barely ride.

Clearly the problem is the bike. No other team has such a wide disparity in teammates performance.

I think Honda is contemplating or is actively reducing the involvement in motor sports with both money and time, as well as engineering effort.

This is their last year in F1 and they have a winning combination. I think motorcycles will remain as the “legacy” unit of the company. But even here their effort seems lackluster. I think they have to be looking to a future with electricity in all areas.

How are bike sales doing these days? I don’t know the answer, but I don’t see many out there that I would be interested in. (Not that I’m the target market.)
 
warthog1 said:
Doohan went away from the big bang and back to the screamer.
He could ride it and nobody else could at his level.
Despite his supreme ability he wasn't beyond playing with other's heads.
Did what he could to dominate and win.
Click to expand...

Right, I always seem to get that wrong with the Big Bang thing.

I don’t really know how influential Doohan was with Honda truly but for sure his team mates were at least within striking distance and capable of a win once in a while. Such is not the case now.

The bike has to be the problem. Marquez is riding around the bike and seems incapable of improving it to increase his own performance, even if I agree that he doesn’t give a .... about making it more rideable for anybody else.
 
Bern1 said:
As mentioned, the tale of the teammates tells the story. On the KTM Pol could “almost win.” On the Honda he can barely ride.

Clearly the problem is the bike. No other team has such a wide disparity in teammates performance.

I think Honda is contemplating or is actively reducing the involvement in motor sports with both money and time, as well as engineering effort.

This is their last year in F1 and they have a winning combination. I think motorcycles will remain as the “legacy” unit of the company. But even here their effort seems lackluster. I think they have to be looking to a future with electricity in all areas.

How are bike sales doing these days? I don’t know the answer, but I don’t see many out there that I would be interested in. (Not that I’m the target market.)
Click to expand...
Interesting points that you make. With F1, whilst Honda have been a part of the scene for many years they were not a "Performance Car" manufacturer (with 1 or 2 notable exceptions) With bikes they have always been associated with high performance models. Even if the electrification of transport goes ahead there is still at least 10-15 years of ICE racing to go so I don't believe they would give up investment in ICE racing machines just yet. They might move to concentrate on production type racing in a few years that would still promote their street models at a greatly reduced expenditure compared to MotoGP.
 
warthog1 said:
Who else have you seen on the Honda capable of riding the machine like Marquez?
Nobody?
I haven't ether.
The bike is crafted to meet his demands.
It did that very, very well.
Without him they are in trouble in the short term.
However they recognised his talent, gave him the bike he required and signed him for 4 years.
They had the best rider, gave him the bike he needed and kept him out of other's hands.
Seems a logical approach to me.
If he can't get back to his winning ways the bike will change.
They have certainly been capable of doing it before.
Click to expand...

Marquez has/had been asking for a more rideable bike for years. Him and Pedrosa asked for the same things, IIRC Lorenzo, Crutchlow and Marquez gave the same feedback and asked for the same things more or less but no rider is bigger than Honda and their engineering. If something can be theoretically faster Honda will give it preference, not that Marquez is not guilty of the same thing either. If Honda present him with two options he will pick the faster option often when it comes at the expense of rideability.
Honestly Honda haven’t had a good bike since 2014 when championships were a 4 horse race.
 
Bern1 said:
Right, I always seem to get that wrong with the Big Bang thing.

I don’t really know how influential Doohan was with Honda truly but for sure his team mates were at least within striking distance and capable of a win once in a while. Such is not the case now.

The bike has to be the problem. Marquez is riding around the bike and seems incapable of improving it to increase his own performance, even if I agree that he doesn’t give a .... about making it more rideable for anybody else.
Click to expand...

I think the rider, no matter who it is can only do so much though. For instance, look at Lorenzo, while I’m sure he helped improve Ducati while he was there it wasn’t until they gave him a fuel tank he was happy with that he was able to win.

Riders can’t create the options they have to give feedback and hope the factory does or can do what they’re asking for. I remember nakamoto saying that they wanted to create a bike that held the same or better corner speed than the Yamaha in 2016. And they did, it was Marquez’s corner speed and corner entry that won the title for them that year. I’m not sure if that’s what Marquez wanted or not but it was the challenge Honda wanted to complete so that’s what they did.

Marquez’s ability has allowed them to complete engineering challenges and pat themselves on the back for their brilliance.
 
Bern1 said:
I agree that he doesn’t give a .... about making it more rideable for anybody else.
Click to expand...

I’m unsure why people (not you) act like it is Marquez’s responsibility to create a bike that other guys can win on or ride well. His only responsibility is to get the fastest bike possible for himself.

Does anyone remember the last time a rider got off another bike and went faster on the Honda or got off the Honda to another bike and went slower?

Has anyone done it since Stoner in 2010/11?
Maybe Cal? But tech 3 were underfunded and he was close to winning in 2014 on the duke when it was still a pile of .... IIRC.
 

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