2021 Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello

warthog1 said:

Who else have you seen on the Honda capable of riding the machine like Marquez?
Nobody?
I haven't ether.
The bike is crafted to meet his demands.
It did that very, very well.
Without him they are in trouble in the short term.
However they recognised his talent, gave him the bike he required and signed him for 4 years.
They had the best rider, gave him the bike he needed and kept him out of other's hands.
Seems a logical approach to me.
If he can't get back to his winning ways the bike will change.
They have certainly been capable of doing it before.

Click to expand...

Crafted to meet his demands? You mean the way they did so well for Pedrosa? The received wisdom in 2007 was that HRC went along with Repsol's agenda of building a bike tailor made for Pedrosa. The bike came to be known here as the Pedrocycle. Clearly Repsol (with much influence from Puig) had put their considerable know how and experience behind Pedrosa as the Spanish golden boy and yet after years of trying, were incapable of making a bike Dani could regularly win on.

There's no good evidence that Honda made a bike that suited Marquez. They made a bike that was quick but difficult. Marquez could extract the potential out of the bike while many other riders could not. But this is what a team sport is about in that I think it incorrect to say that the bikes that Marquez rode to his championships were not championship winning bikes. IMO, they definitely were.

So far, FQ is doing with the 2021 Yamaha, what 2 other riders of they same bike haven't been able to do. Without FQ, we'd be thinking that Yamaha had come up with another dud bike.

The tyres do seem better this year since the pecking order is a lot more consistent and the championship will likely progress as we are accustomed to witnessing.

Pecko will hopefully learn from his error. He's quick indeed but rough at the edges. Next year should be interesting.

Great ride by Oliveira. These three guys on the podium are like a bloody fairy tale. They are such great fellows.

misfit said:

There's no good evidence that Honda made a bike that suited Marquez. They made a bike that was quick but difficult. Marquez could extract the potential out of the bike while many other riders could not. But this is what a team sport is about in that I think it incorrect to say that the bikes that Marquez rode to his championships were not championship winning bikes. IMO, they definitely were.

So far, FQ is doing with the 2021 Yamaha, what 2 other riders of they same bike haven't been able to do. Without FQ, we'd be thinking that Yamaha had come up with another dud bike.

The tyres do seem better this year since the pecking order is a lot more consistent and the championship will likely progress as we are accustomed to witnessing.

Pecko will hopefully learn from his error. He's quick indeed but rough at the edges. Next year should be interesting.

Great ride by Oliveira. These three guys on the podium are like a bloody fairy tale. They are such great fellows.

Click to expand...

Naturally talent will tell, but significantly, the Yamahas are by far a better package as evidenced by riders not named Quatarraro, have so far this year, placed 1st at Losail, 5th at Losail, 4th in Portugal and 3rd in Spain. Honda riders have barely had a sniff at the podium. I’m not even talking about the bike being championship capable. Honda riders as a whole are fighting over crumbs left behind by KTM and Suzuki riders.

Pedantically saying the Honda is capable of winning a championship brings to mind an old joke.

Two guys are sitting in a bar getting drunk. One drunk says to the other, “Hey, I bet you $200.00 I can jump off the Empire State Building and live. The 2nd drunk says okay, I’ll take you up on that. Easy $200.00 for me. They get to the top floor and drunk #2 says, you go first. Drunk #1 says, okay, climbs over the barrier, jumps over the side hits the pavement standing up and walks away unscathed, looks up and wags his finger at drunk #2 as to say, come on. Drunk #2 jumps and falls to his death. Drunk #1 slips his hand into the pocket of the demised drunk, helps himself to $200.00 and walks back to the bar. The bartender sees him coming through the front door clutching two $100.00 bills and says, Y’know you really are an ....... when you’re drunk Superman.

Another telling issue is that ALL the Honda riders seem to crash a lot. All of them. The circumstances just seem to point in the direction of some imbalance in the bike that results in unpredictability at inopportune times.

Little Walter said:

Crafted to meet his demands? You mean the way they did so well for Pedrosa? The received wisdom in 2007 was that HRC went along with Repsol's agenda of building a bike tailor made for Pedrosa. The bike came to be known here as the Pedrocycle. Clearly Repsol (with much influence from Puig) had put their considerable know how and experience behind Pedrosa as the Spanish golden boy and yet after years of trying, were incapable of making a bike Dani could regularly win on.

Click to expand...

Dani had a problem, he didn’t bounce well.

I think MM bears some responsibility for the rideability of the current bike, he has pushed for straight line performance to match Ducati for years with the reputed attitude that nothing else mattered because he could ride the thing regardless. They did seem to have a pretty good bike in 2012 despite pre-season and mid season shenanigans, Dani won rather more than 2 races that year. And the bike was hardly problematic in 2014.

At this particular moment in time KTM seem to have better straight line performance and hence presumably engine performance as well as Ducati, and Yamaha a better all round bike, which must be rather embarrassing for Honda.

Keshav said:

Why you insist on clinging to this flawed conceit is beyond me.

You keep trying to convince me that Marquez is talented. Has anyone said otherwise?

If Honda were as clever as you insist they are, given they knew MM was not going to be in contention this year, they'd have made a more tractable bike. But they didn't.

If no other rider, with one freakish exception, in two seasons can even get a Honda on the podium, the problem is clearly the bike.

HRC are alleged to be in the business of making competitive machinery, but if the bike is only competitive in the hands of one rider, it's not a competitive design. HRC seem really to be in the business of out-spending other factories to glom on to freakishly talented guys who can ride around the deficits of the engineering department.

Click to expand...

He got what he needed to win.
Stuff the bike in hard under brakes as only he can and the motor to get him out and down the straight fast.
The evidence that it worked for him is there given the results he has achieved.
As others have said, Marquez doesn't care if others can ride it.
If they can't it removes his teammates as competitors and not his concern.
As I said, Honda were happy enough to sign him on big moula for 4 years and he was happy enough to sign on. Given his will to win I'd say he was confident of getting the bike he needed.

Honda have been around alot longer than Marquez. In my time watching the sport, I've seen Spencer, Gardner, Lawson, Doohan, Crivillè, Rossi, Hayden, Stoner and Marquez win on the bike.
Didn't watch alot of a few of them though.
Anyway, yeah the bike is hard to ride now but history shows they will be capable of making it work for others if Marquez can't get back there.
...., I hope he can though!

michaelm said:

Dani had a problem, he didn’t bounce well.

I think MM bears some responsibility for the rideability of the current bike, he has pushed for straight line performance to match Ducati for years with the reputed attitude that nothing else mattered because he could ride the thing regardless. They did seem to have a pretty good bike in 2012 despite pre-season and mid season shenanigans, Dani won rather more than 2 races that year. And the bike was hardly problematic in 2014.

At this particular moment in time KTM seem to have better straight line performance and hence presumably engine performance as well as Ducati, and Yamaha a better all round bike, which must be rather embarrassing for Honda.

Click to expand...

I don't recall that being an issue in the 250 class. I can't say his stature wasn't problematic. But the idea that Honda is capable, at will, of building an artisanal bike to precisely suit a specific rider is belied by the fact that over - how many years, they failed produce one for Dani.

The bike was much more capable in 2014 - but then that's relative to the competition. With all teams using the same tires and ECU, and limits on certain modifications - other teams have caught up, but instead of improving the bike in a meaningful fashion, Honda just out-bid everybody for the services of a freakishly talented rider.

warthog1 said:

Honda got the rider they needed to win on their poorly handling bike.
Stuff the bike in hard under brakes as only he can and the motor to get him out and down the straight fast.
The evidence that it worked for him is there given the results he has achieved.
As others have said, Marquez doesn't care if others can ride it.
If they can't it removes his teammates as competitors and not his concern.
As I said, Honda were happy enough to sign him on big moula for 4 years and he was happy enough to sign on. Given his will to win I'd say he was confident of getting the bike he needed.

Honda have been around alot longer than Marquez. In my time watching the sport, I've seen Spencer, Gardner, Lawson, Doohan, Crivillè, Rossi, Hayden, Stoner and Marquez win on the bike.
Didn't watch alot of a few of them though.
Anyway, yeah the bike is hard to ride now but history shows they will be capable of making it work for others if Marquez can't get back there.
...., I hope he can though!

Click to expand...

Fixed it for you.

Keshav said:

I don't recall that being an issue in the 250 class. I can't say his stature wasn't problematic. But the idea that Honda is capable, at will, of building an artisanal bike to precisely suit a specific rider is belied by the fact that over - how many years, they failed produce one for Dani.

The bike was much more capable in 2014 - but then that's relative to the competition. With all teams using the same tires and ECU, and limits on certain modifications - other teams have caught up, but instead of improving the bike in a meaningful fashion, Honda just out-bid everybody for the services of a freakishly talented rider.

Click to expand...

I am not disagreeing with you about Honda in general, and Dani during most of his tenure did really only seem to get it together 2 weekends a year, but he also got injured nearly every year. The bike was fine for him in at least 2006 and 2012 though, he won 7 races in the latter year, and in 2011 and 2014 Stoner and MM won so many races there weren’t many left for Dani to win in any case. Dorna also only imo of course did their best to nobble the 2012 bike which still left them with more than 10 race wins between their 2 riders.

Keshav said:

Fixed it for you.

Click to expand...

Fixed it for yourself
I reckon MM and Santi have proven able to fix it to make it work for MM and that is what counts.
Hope it can happen again. Not sure at all at this point.

Bern1 said:

As mentioned, the tale of the teammates tells the story. On the KTM Pol could “almost win.” On the Honda he can barely ride.

Clearly the problem is the bike. No other team has such a wide disparity in teammates performance.

Click to expand...

MM can't give useful feedback on the balance and feel of the bike since his shoulder is giving him pain (as per reports).

AM is only in MotoGP because of his brother, so no value in his input.

Nakagami tries to ride like MM, and it kind of works every once in a while but as soon as the bike was a little unsettled down he goes.

Pol was an almost winner at KTM. His input is probably valueable if HRC's frame was more trellis like to allow for more flex or stiffness depending on welding.

HRC should probably do all they can to give Pol what he needs to ride and win. That it will probably go a long way of solve their rideability issues. They can then let MM take it easy for 2021, before he seriously re-injures his shoulder this year.
HRC should also be looking hire a new rookie to replace AM asap and to start looking beyond MM, someone like R. Fernandez or P. Acosta. Its not likely either will be on the market for long before some other manufacturer, like KTM, signs them up (Tech 3 anyone?).

Am I right in thnking all engine development still remains frozen from 2020 until next season, and only allowing for very limited developement on bikes?

p4p1 said:

I’m unsure why people (not you) act like it is Marquez’s responsibility to create a bike that other guys can win on or ride well. His only responsibility is to get the fastest bike possible for himself.

Click to expand...

Been saying this for years and years.

people seem to think, or expect that it is the job of a racer to develop a bike that others can ride easily to results ............ F off, hell every racer wants to win as easily as possible so they will never make a bike easier to ride if it means increasing their competition and efforts. Likewise, why must they settle when others should be rising to the challenge?

Absolutely there will be some riders who will not care if others can ride or if the bike gets easier to ride through development as they are supremely confident in their own abilities and will openly share their setup data.

This is not a team sport with racers as team mates, the team is that of the racers crew versus every other crew member and racer out there.

MigsAngel said:

Pol was an almost winner at KTM. His input is probably valueable if HRC's frame was more trellis like to allow for more flex or stiffness depending on welding.

HRC should probably do all they can to give Pol what he needs to ride and win. That it will probably go a long way of solve their rideability issues. They can then let MM take it easy for 2021, before he seriously re-injures his shoulder this year.

Click to expand...

Puts flame suit on ............

Sorry Migs but I cannot agree on Pol who has had a lot of chances with some good rides (tech3 when they were quite decent and KTM) but has a total of 6 podium positions to his credit with 5 of those last year when KTM had engine advantages, all from 124 or so races.

I personally feel that you undersell the influence of Mika Kallio as the test rider for KTM and the work he has done to develop the bike as he is far from an also-ran himself.

For Honda, (IMO and controversially I suspect) they are best to put the eggs into the MMarquez basket for the next year or two if they want results while identifying the talent they need to come up and into the team

We can say that the bike is not there at the moment which is no doubt true in parts, but as you allude and I suspect, MMarquez is far from 100% healthy in body and that is no doubt affecting his performances.

Honda could do a lot worse than look in the direction of Brad Binder (IMO) or the very real longshot .............. Remy Gardner (Wayne is still very well regarded at HRC so give Remy a couple of years)

warthog1 said:

"After FP4 I said to the team, 'I don’t feel the bike, I don’t feel anything, just we need to follow somebody'," Marquez said.
"We checked the list, the fastest guy was Vinales, so we chose him because he was the fastest guy [not to get into Qualifying 2 directly], but if it was another one [faster] we would choose another one.

"And then just I followed him, it was the tactic because it was the only way to improve.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/979234/1/marc-marquez-i-apologised-vinales-its-within-rules

Yeah I'd say he is not confident in his speed yet.
I hope he believes in his ability to return to his previous speed on the bike.
Certainly hope he gets there too, as it is amazing to watch.

Click to expand...

Reading this made me feel a bit better as I was ready to throw Marc under the bus and call him a tosser

warthog1 said:

Fixed it for yourself
I reckon MM and Santi have proven able to fix it to make it work for MM and that is what counts.
Hope it can happen again. Not sure at all at this point.

Click to expand...

It would be a tragedy if he didn’t make a full recovery.

RaceFan59 said:

Would you fancy saying no to an angry Mick Doohan? Ha! Ha!

Click to expand...

Nope i would not :spin:

Little Walter said:

Crafted to meet his demands? You mean the way they did so well for Pedrosa? The received wisdom in 2007 was that HRC went along with Repsol's agenda of building a bike tailor made for Pedrosa. The bike came to be known here as the Pedrocycle. Clearly Repsol (with much influence from Puig) had put their considerable know how and experience behind Pedrosa as the Spanish golden boy and yet after years of trying, were incapable of making a bike Dani could regularly win on.

Click to expand...

Coming second 4 or more years sounds a lot like winning regularly, just had to also beat Stoner, Lorenzo and Rossi being the size of a humming bird.

320Dave said:

Coming second 4 or more years sounds a lot like winning regularly, just had to also beat Stoner, Lorenzo and Rossi being the size of a humming bird.

Click to expand...

Yes, that they couldn’t build a bike on which he could beat Rossi, Lorenzo and Stoner was gross incompetence on the part of the Honda engineers, like the engineers who provided Randy Mamola with his bikes.

320Dave said:

Coming second 4 or more years sounds a lot like winning regularly, just had to also beat Stoner, Lorenzo and Rossi being the size of a humming bird.

Click to expand...

I wasn’t disparaging Dani. And yes it’s true the competition was fierce. Thing is, I truly believe Dani would have won at least one championship if HRC engineers had put together a chassis/suspension set-up capable of both a weight distribution allowing him to get heat into the front tire, and not have the rear spinning underneath him on the straightaways. Clearly HRC and Repsol shared that goal - but never reached it.

As to Mike’s comment: Never implied “gross incompetence”. Only that HRC engineers can’t snap their fingers like magicians and, voila! Yank a made-to-order bike out of a hat, which is what Mr. WH appears to have implied.

Japanese engineers from what I’ve observed seem to be pragmatic in intent, but not in actual practice. From a utilitarian point of view, it would make sense, given the capacity to do so, HRC would make a more well rounded bike that riders not imbued with a freakish capacity to outride handling deficiencies, could say regularly be on the podium, if for no other reason than more wins on Hondas, equals more points toward the constructors championship. Which, doesn’t hurt when it comes to the business of drawing in the highest sponsorship money - not to mention the prestige - and what Japanese corporate guy doesn’t love him some prestige? But then I digress...

The stats do talk. A rider cannot get results without a bike capable of it, whether it takes effort, freakish or otherwise to get them. Honda have been successful despite their difficult bikes. The same can't be said for Ducati for instance. Despite having a 'freak' in Stoner riding for them, they managed only 1 championship with him.