2021 Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello

Keshav · Jun 2, 2021

michaelm said:
6 out of 8 isn’t too bad. And it was mostly down to him the 2 seasons he didn’t win, if he had settled for his position before crashing out in all those races in 2015 arithmetically he would have been world champion, let alone had he raced as he did at PI 2015 rather than attempting to dominate every lap of every race, and if he hadn’t had the bike hit his arm in what wasn’t a very bad crash otherwise, and also a crash which was due to vanity/making an unnecessary point he very likely would have won that title as well, I didn’t see any other bike/rider combination which could carve through the field as he did before crashing out already in the best position he could possibly finish during the rest of last season either.

So let me ask you a question, what exactly is it HRC are selling? Is it Marquez or is it bikes? From the standpoint of a buyer if I’m going to make a decision to purchase a particular brand, I’m going to go with the bike that looks to be the most competitive, because you can’t buy Marquez’s talent at the Honda dealer.

michaelm · Jun 2, 2021

Keshav said:
So let me ask you a question, what exactly is it HRC are selling? Is it Marquez or is it bikes? From the standpoint of a buyer if I’m going to make a decision to purchase a particular brand, I’m going to go with the bike that looks to be the most competitive, because you can’t buy Marquez’s talent at the Honda dealer.

You will have to ask them why they do it. The justification has been it is for R and D . The original Mr Honda being a racing guy probably has something to do with it/is part of the company identity.

As far as brand awareness goes I suspect winning trumps anything else for them, and I doubt they are trying to convince purchasers of 250 bikes that the handling of their race bike transfers to their 250 road bike, and buyers of their high end performance bike probably know enough about bikes to know a prototype race bike is different from a road bike.

The counterpoint to hiring aliens is that several Honda riders are among the most iconic in the sport, and I suspect they are not dismayed by any notion that you have to be something of a samurai to ride their race bike successfully.

misfit · Jun 2, 2021

Keshav said:
So let me ask you a question, what exactly is it HRC are selling? Is it Marquez or is it bikes? From the standpoint of a buyer if I’m going to make a decision to purchase a particular brand, I’m going to go with the bike that looks to be the most competitive, because you can’t buy Marquez’s talent at the Honda dealer.

How many potential customers see MM winning championships with the Honda year after year, knowing that MM cannot win the way he does unless the bike has the potential vs potential customers with your nuanced POV?

Honda do what has been working for them. It's not ideal, but it has been working for decades. Why have they stuck with their approach other than because of their success with it?

michaelm · Jun 2, 2021

Keshav said:
So let me ask you a question, what exactly is it HRC are selling? Is it Marquez or is it bikes? From the standpoint of a buyer if I’m going to make a decision to purchase a particular brand, I’m going to go with the bike that looks to be the most competitive, because you can’t buy Marquez’s talent at the Honda dealer.

You will have to ask them why they do it. The justification has been it is for R and D . The original Mr Honda being a racing guy probably has something to do with it/is part of the company identity.

As far as brand awareness goes I suspect winning trumps anything else for them, and I doubt they are trying to convince purchasers of 250 bikes that the handling of their race bike transfers to their 250 road bike, and buyers of their high end performance bike probably know enough about bikes to know a prototype race bike is different from a road bike.

The counterpoint to hiring aliens is that several Honda riders are among the most iconic in the sport, and I suspect they are not dismayed by any notion that you have to be something of a samurai to ride their race bike successfully.

michaelm · Jun 2, 2021

misfit said:
How many potential customers see MM winning championships with the Honda year after year, knowing that MM cannot win the way he does unless the bike has the potential vs potential customers with your nuanced POV?

Honda do what has been working for them. It's not ideal, but it has been working for decades. Why have they stuck with their approach other than because of their success with it?

Yes, bottom line is that it works for them.

Keshav · Jun 3, 2021

My short reply/response is their formula is hubris buttressed by excessive spending = winning at any cost. Creating a superior MotoGP bike is not as important as dominating the marketplace.

Pardon me if I ramble, but when I was a kid, with dreams of making it big in the photography world, I started out as an poorly paid assistant, and one of my most famous bosses was a Japanese photographer named Hashi, who was a rockstar in the business. Assistants worked 18 hr days for a pittance at his studio, just to say they’d assisted him. We had 4 Japanese assistants who flew to NY to work for him - for free. For them it was the photographic equivalent of studying at Juilliard for no tuition, but more importantly it was about the prestige. Hashi was an abusive ....... with zero appreciation of the people who worked for him. To the Japanese assistants, he was like a feudal Shogun warlord on a throne by order of the gods. As devoted as they were to him, they were in his eyes, mere tools to be utilized and disposed of when they burned out.

Same dynamic with HRC and their riders. HRC OTOH - have a culturally ingrained pact/agreement with their engineering people, in that it’s understood that company men - have lifetime jobs. Anything less would be shameful. HRC engineers maintain permanent job security whether or not some Spanish kid wins a championship. He is after all a temp man and foreigner to boot. As salary men HRC engineers can get away with a fair amount of creating shiny, self-indulgent whizz bang gizmos because the culture has always put a high value on style and elegance, often at the expense of functionality, witness the pretty bamboo houses with paper windows, in which people regularly died from exposure.

Bottom line: they’d rather pay a rider like Marquez or Stoner triple the salary of any other rider, than call attention to the failings of Japanese engineers.

Bern1 · Jun 3, 2021

That may be true.

However, it has always been this way: “Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.”

It’s only people like us who drill down and debate why who wins what when. Most of the public, including the bike buying public, does not get that far down the rabbit hole.

I am not going to argue with Honda’s methodology in anything. I have owned multiple Honda vehicles and from my non professional but appreciative point of view, the engineering in all of them has been quite remarkable, with an affordable point of entry and reasonable costs and ease of ownership. As much as I’d like a Duc 916, the clutch and valves are enough to put me off. Yeah, I’m lazy.

misfit · Jun 3, 2021

Bern1 said:
That may be true.

However, it has always been this way: “Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.”

It’s only people like us who drill down and debate why who wins what when. Most of the public, including the bike buying public, does not get that far down the rabbit hole.

I am not going to argue with Honda’s methodology in anything. I have owned multiple Honda vehicles and from my non professional but appreciative point of view, the engineering in all of them has been quite remarkable, with an affordable point of entry and reasonable costs and ease of ownership. As much as I’d like a Duc 916, the clutch and valves are enough to put me off. Yeah, I’m lazy.

Hard core fans too often forget this. Large companies are very aware of the perception of the general public and the average racing fan.

Keshav · Jun 3, 2021

misfit said:
Hard core fans too often forget this. Large companies are very aware of the perception of the general public and the average racing fan.

Of course the average kid in the street isn’t aware of the little details of MotoGP. Most of the guys who buy liter bikes don’t even follow MotoGP. They mostly want something shiny and fast.

michaelm · Jun 3, 2021

Keshav said:
My short reply/response is their formula is hubris buttressed by excessive spending = winning at any cost. Creating a superior MotoGP bike is not as important as dominating the marketplace.

Pardon me if I ramble, but when I was a kid, with dreams of making it big in the photography world, I started out as an poorly paid assistant, and one of my most famous bosses was a Japanese photographer named Hashi, who was a rockstar in the business. Assistants worked 18 hr days for a pittance at his studio, just to say they’d assisted him. We had 4 Japanese assistants who flew to NY to work for him - for free. For them it was the photographic equivalent of studying at Juilliard for no tuition, but more importantly it was about the prestige. Hashi was an abusive ....... with zero appreciation of the people who worked for him. To the Japanese assistants, he was like a feudal Shogun warlord on a throne by order of the gods. As devoted as they were to him, they were in his eyes, mere tools to be utilized and disposed of when they burned out.

Same dynamic with HRC and their riders. HRC OTOH - have a culturally ingrained pact/agreement with their engineering people, in that it’s understood that company men -have lifetime job. Anything less would be shameful. HRC engineers maintain permanent job security whether or not some Spanish kid wins a championship. He is after all a temp man and foreigner to boot. As salary men HRC engineers can get away with a fair amount of creating shiny, self-indulgent whizz bang gizmos because the culture has always put a high value on style and elegance, often at the expense of functionality, witness the pretty bamboo houses with paper windows, in which people regularly died from exposure.

Bottom line: they’d rather pay a rider like Marquez or Stoner triple the salary of any other rider, than call attention to the failings of Japanese engineers.

If you don’t like Japanese corporate culture in general or Honda’s in particular that’s fine, but I am not sure what your point is. They are who/what they are, engineering is their thing and pretty much their corporate identity, and if it wasn’t they might not be in gp bike racing, and are not going to change their approach which has worked for them both as a company/manufacturer in general renowned for the quality of their engineering, and quality of their actual engines in particular, and in gp bike racing where they are the most successful manufacturer. I too can attest to the quality of their products for the road, I have a current Honda Civic Type R, and opening the bonnet on that is akin to opening a jewellery box, and they have managed to get a front wheel drive car, which is front wheel drive mainly for reasons of engineering philosophy in that they didn’t want to incur the weight penalty involved with AWD, to handle

Ducati whom you lauded for a different approach in gp bike racing treat their riders, even their most successful 2 riders in Stoner and Dovi, or Bayliss for that matter when he was in motogp, worse than Honda. And as I have said I doubt Honda dislike having some of the most iconic riders in motogp history associated with them, or even any implication that it takes a great rider to dominate on their bike. I think they have mostly had good relationships with their successful riders as well, and certainly do with the retired Gardner, Doohan and Criville, and seem to with MM also. They famously fell out with Rossi, but that just might have had something to do with Rossi, who would seem to regard himself (perhaps correctly) then and now as bigger than any mere bike racing equipe.

320Dave · Jun 4, 2021

Keshav said:
My short reply/response is their formula is hubris buttressed by excessive spending = winning at any cost. Creating a superior MotoGP bike is not as important as dominating the marketplace.

Pardon me if I ramble, but when I was a kid, with dreams of making it big in the photography world, I started out as an poorly paid assistant, and one of my most famous bosses was a Japanese photographer named Hashi, who was a rockstar in the business. Assistants worked 18 hr days for a pittance at his studio, just to say they’d assisted him. We had 4 Japanese assistants who flew to NY to work for him - for free. For them it was the photographic equivalent of studying at Juilliard for no tuition, but more importantly it was about the prestige. Hashi was an abusive ....... with zero appreciation of the people who worked for him. To the Japanese assistants, he was like a feudal Shogun warlord on a throne by order of the gods. As devoted as they were to him, they were in his eyes, mere tools to be utilized and disposed of when they burned out.

Same dynamic with HRC and their riders. HRC OTOH - have a culturally ingrained pact/agreement with their engineering people, in that it’s understood that company men - have lifetime jobs. Anything less would be shameful. HRC engineers maintain permanent job security whether or not some Spanish kid wins a championship. He is after all a temp man and foreigner to boot. As salary men HRC engineers can get away with a fair amount of creating shiny, self-indulgent whizz bang gizmos because the culture has always put a high value on style and elegance, often at the expense of functionality, witness the pretty bamboo houses with paper windows, in which people regularly died from exposure.

Bottom line: they’d rather pay a rider like Marquez or Stoner triple the salary of any other rider, than call attention to the failings of Japanese engineers.

Does that only apply to Honda? because last time i checked Suzuki and Yamaha were also Japanese.

Seriously now though, are the decisions not made in Japan for those two?

Keshav · Jun 4, 2021

michaelm said:
If you don’t like Japanese corporate culture in general or Honda’s in particular that’s fine, but I am not sure what your point is. They are who/what they are, engineering is their thing and pretty much their corporate identity, and if it wasn’t they might not be in gp bike racing, and are not going to change their approach which has worked for them both as a company/manufacturer in general renowned for the quality of their engineering, and quality of their actual engines in particular, and in gp bike racing where they are the most successful manufacturer. I too can attest to the quality of their products for the road, I have a current Honda Civic Type R, and opening the bonnet on that is akin to opening a jewellery box, and they have managed to get a front wheel drive car, which is front wheel drive mainly for reasons of engineering philosophy in that they didn’t want to incur the weight penalty involved with AWD, to handle

Ducati whom you lauded for a different approach in gp bike racing treat their riders, even their most successful 2 riders in Stoner and Dovi, or Bayliss for that matter when he was in motogp, worse than Honda. And as I have said I doubt Honda dislike having some of the most iconic riders in motogp history associated with them, or even any implication that it takes a great rider to dominate on their bike. I think they have mostly had good relationships with their successful riders as well, and certainly do with the retired Gardner, Doohan and Criville, and seem to with MM also. They famously fell out with Rossi, but that just might have had something to do with Rossi, who would seem to regard himself (perhaps correctly) then and now as bigger than any mere bike racing equipe.

Honestly - it’s not so much a matter of “dislike”. I’m fairly dispassionate about things not Eurocentric-compliant. I’m sure the average Japanese race fan - thinks all Americans are irrational gun nuts.

I will admit to being anti-corporate culture.

Yes - Honda makes excellent consumer goods. I had one of the first 750 Interceptors to come into the States in ‘83. Great engine. Terrible chassis. When I was racing an FZ600 - I always wished I’d spent more and got the 600 Hurricane, a much better bike.

Love the Civic R. If it were AWD - I’d have got one, but we get heavy snow upstate and AWD is just the sensible thing. My 328I Xdrive is a pretty good substitute, and the motor under the hood is also easy on the eyes. If only the dealership could figure out why the fuse to the cigarette lighter socket keeps blowing...

Re: Ducati, I have made the same observations numerous times. While I like them as an underdog (tho not so much anymore) I found their treatment of Melandri and Stoner really shameful, the sort of thing that is too often the norm in corporate culture.

Interesting observation (maybe only to me?) when I see HRC corporate PR stuff about fabulous former world champions, the never seem to mention Fast Freddie who served them so well in 1980 in the U.S. versus Britain Transatlantic Trophy match races when he won two legs at Brands Hatch, defeating Roberts and Sheene in the process. Spencer went on to finish third in the 1980 Superbike championships and second to Eddie Lawson in 1981. In 1981, he split his time between the AMA Superbike series, and the European Grand Prix circuit, helping Honda develop the NR500.

I speculate that in keeping with the well-established cultural norms, Japanese never talk about or want to be associated with any thing or person carrying the stain of mental illness, and what with Spencer openly talking about suffering from depression, and much having been said about how the burn-out he experienced in ‘85 when he won the grueling Daytona 200 for Honda and went on to win the F1 and F2 championships and how that contributed to his suicidal depression. Honda officially would only say it was because of his wrist that he retired. Typical of Japanese corporate culture: He was just a broken part, to be replaced like a bad con rod.

michaelm · Jun 4, 2021

Keshav said:
Honestly - it’s not so much a matter of “dislike”. I’m fairly dispassionate about things not Eurocentric-compliant. I’m sure the average Japanese race fan - thinks all Americans are irrational gun nuts.

I will admit to being anti-corporate culture.

Yes - Honda makes excellent consumer goods. I had one of the first 750 Interceptors to come into the States in ‘83. Great engine. Terrible chassis. When I was racing an FZ600 - I always wished I’d spent more and got the 600 Hurricane, a much better bike.

Love the Civic R. If it were AWD - I’d have got one, but we get heavy snow upstate and AWD is just the sensible thing. My 328I Xdrive is a pretty good substitute, and the motor under the hood is also easy on the eyes. If only the dealership could figure out why the fuse to the cigarette lighter socket keeps blowing...

Re: Ducati, I have made the same observations numerous times. While I like them as an underdog (tho not so much anymore) I found their treatment of Melandri and Stoner really shameful, the sort of thing that is too often the norm in corporate culture.

Interesting observation (maybe only to me?) when I see HRC corporate PR stuff about fabulous former world champions, the never seem to mention Fast Freddie who served them so well in 1980 in the U.S. versus Britain Transatlantic Trophy match races when he won two legs at Brands Hatch, defeating Roberts and Sheene in the process. Spencer went on to finish third in the 1980 Superbike championships and second to Eddie Lawson in 1981. In 1981, he split his time between the AMA Superbike series, and the European Grand Prix circuit, helping Honda develop the NR500.

I speculate that in keeping with the well-established cultural norms, Japanese never talk about or want to be associated with any thing or person carrying the stain of mental illness, and what with Spencer openly talking about suffering from depression, and much having been said about how the burn-out he experienced in ‘85 when he won the grueling Daytona 200 for Honda and went on to win the F1 and F2 championships and how that contributed to his suicidal depression. Honda officially would only say it was because of his wrist that he retired. Typical of Japanese corporate culture: He was just a broken part, to be replaced like a bad con rod.

Sure I remember Fast Freddie of course and obviously didn’t mention him among the iconic riders with whom Honda have a good relationship in their retirement for good reason, while very definitely classifying him as an absolutely iconic rider myself, as I do Lawson even more so, but 3 Yamaha titles to 1 Honda title makes Lawson pretty much a Yamaha rider imo with whom he seems to identify himself. I don’t know why he ended up with Cagiva at the end of his career so soon after a title win, and don’t dismiss him from discussions as the best ever.

I have loved Ducatis since I was a teenager and didn’t even consider I was currently driving a Honda in previous discussions. I do like that Honda appreciated their Australian world championship riders who seemed to meet their criteria for bushido or whatever, although they perhaps have somewhat fallen out with Stoner, ironically over an engineering failure; I don’t think he was best pleased about breaking several bones after the throttle stuck open in that super bike race post his motogp retirement.

My main point was that they are who they are, a Japanese company for whom engineering is indeed the name of the game, just as sharks are inclined to behave like sharks. And sure in the new motogp milieu with control tires and ecus etc their traditional approach may no longer work as it once did.

On another forum a reasonable point imo has been made that several marques are ruthless with young riders, Honda when they signed Jack Miller straight from Moto 3 and Tech 3 in signing Lecuona among them, neither with much concern whether lack of immediate success at age 19 or 20 ended the careers of said riders in short order. As we have both said Ducati have been serially ruthless fairly generally as well.

misfit · Jun 4, 2021

Honda being a Japanese Corp/Co. are competing with Western companies. There'll be cultural/ethnic etc. rivalry. With them having to employ and interact with riders/engineers from the West, they will likely have an 'attitude' and be resistant to suggestion; doggedly sticking with their own approach. I can attest to this sort of rivalry across nations and regions within my own field of practice.

They will naturally wish to take credit for their successes, downplaying the riders importance, something that Rossi (a lover of the spotlight) didn't take kindly to during his tenure with them, especially with some of his rivals throwing a similar argument to downplay his success riding the Honda.

I therefore find Honda's operations quite understandable and they have enjoyed huge success, being able to attract riders with the ability to extract the maximum from their bikes which have a track record of being difficult but very fast.

As already discussed and established, Honda's approach to bleeding edge prototype MotoGP bikes is quite different to their consumer market products. I personally expect this and am reassured that given the task, they have the knowhow to produce bikes that attract the best riders who are able to be successful riding them. Ducati has not been able to do the same, despite a similar attitude towards riders and their bike development.

Keshav · Jun 4, 2021

misfit said:
Honda being a Japanese Corp/Co. are competing with Western companies. There'll be cultural/ethnic etc. rivalry. With them having to employ and interact with riders/engineers from the West, they will likely have an 'attitude' and be resistant to suggestion; doggedly sticking with their own approach. I can attest to this sort of rivalry across nations and regions within my own field of practice.

They will naturally wish to take credit for their successes, downplaying the riders importance, something that Rossi (a lover of the spotlight) didn't take kindly to during his tenure with them, especially with some of his rivals throwing a similar argument to downplay his success riding the Honda.

I therefore find Honda's operations quite understandable and they have enjoyed huge success, being able to attract riders with the ability to extract the maximum from their bikes which have a track record of being difficult but very fast.

As already discussed and established, Honda's approach to bleeding edge prototype MotoGP bikes is quite different to their consumer market products. I personally expect this and am reassured that given the task, they have the knowhow to produce bikes that attract the best riders who are able to be successful riding them. Ducati has not been able to do the same, despite a similar attitude towards riders and their bike development.

I think in time Ducati will likely have something akin to parity with Honda. But they have a long row to hoe (do you guys use that expression over there?) Honda’s been in the racing game since 1954, and in the premiere class AFAIK nearly as long. Now that Ducati has a properly competitive foot in the door - it’s only a matter of time before figure out how to make a bike that turns properly.

michaelm · Jun 4, 2021

Keshav said:
I think in time Ducati will likely have something akin to parity with Honda. But they have a long row to hoe (do you guys use that expression over there?) Honda’s been in the racing game since 1954, and in the premiere class AFAIK nearly as long. Now that Ducati has a properly competitive foot in the door - it’s only a matter of time before figure out how to make a bike that turns properly.

Sure, if it is fixable without changing the engine configuration Gigi will do so imo. It may not be though.

Similarly Honda may require a radical re-design without a bespoke ECU +/- tires which have moved away from suiting their bike, which they are probably not inclined to do while putting their resources into a winning farewell from F1. As misfit said they have pretty much always built bikes which are fast but difficult. I am sure MM wouldn’t mind a bike that was easier to ride, but from all reports his approach with the bike during his tenure has been to encourage them to make the bike as fast as possible with confidence he could ride the resulting bike. Difficult though the bike has been most of his problems have come from errors of judgement, the whole 2015 season imo being due to him not accepting that he couldn’t dominate every lap of every race as he had done for most of the 2014 season, and both the major shoulder injury and the humeral fracture from trying to prove something to FQ at times when this was completely unnecessary.

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