I’d add in as well Mike that he was able to use his preferred setting in Jerez pt 2. He was the 3rd Yamaha across the line there, he would have been 4th if not for Franco’s engine failure. Franco was on the podium in Brno, Rossi wasn’t. Rossi was lead Yamaha for the past 2 races both of which have had brake issues for other Yamaha riders.
In human endeavour given a choice between a (secret) conspiracy and a stuff-up, it is nearly always a stuff-up.
They had some left overs from the Spies era and VR made sure that were assigned to his rivals.
Anyone think the new fence safe? I noticed that corner has a hill that acted as a ramp last week.
Anyone think the new fence safe? I noticed that corner has a hill that acted as a ramp last week.
Interesting to me that the Yamaha brake problems are affecting two sort of separate teams. So whatever the problems are, they appear to be something that the teams share. So it has to be coming from Yamaha itself?
But the brakes would be designed by Brembo using their parts. So that leaves human error as mike suggested. Yamaha failed to take some sort of cooling needs into account or mechanics from the same factory ...... up on the same system two weeks in a row.
I don't think it's a mystery, the brakes and discs themselves are fine - the issue is with the calipers.
Simon touched on this during the race on Sunday and Dovi has confirmed during his debriefs.
Brembo were recommending that only one of the calipers types was to be used at the Red Bull Ring (the one that dissipated heat the best) and Maverick didn't use it - I suspect it was heavier than he would have liked.
Macca
Great race. I did feel sorry for Mir and Nakagami, though. On for their first win and podium, respectively. It’s a shame the time the leaders are ahead by can’t be reflected in the restart process somehow, but I get it would be very tricky!
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
Even if the lead times were somehow maintained, it's a new race meaning the riders can change tyres and fuel levels. With the current tyres it's like Russian roulette. Dovi benefitted in that his bike came alive when it was a dud on the original set of tyres. Miller could put on a set of softs for a fresh sprint. Mir had to stay with the medium front he started with. I don't know if he had to or that he chose to.
Misfit, I can’t seem to quote you, but yes you’re right. Even that doesn’t seem fair. I guess there’s no fair solution but it does seem unfair to those who were so far ahead in the first race and end up slipping right back in the second. But that’s racing, I guess! I am a fan of Nakagami so I was particularly sad for him. Hopefully he gets a podium soon, he seems to have really improved this year.
Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
In Formula 1 back in 2012, FIM introduced new tyres that were supposed to 'spice up' the show. The fans complained that there wasn't enough overtaking (unlike in MotoGP :-D ) and that the races were too predictable. FIM wanted to create a new challenge for the teams. 'Turns out they overshot the mark even though they had more race winners than any other year in recent times as well as seriously unpredictable results. The problem was that there was the feeling that the performance pecking order from race to race wasn't earned. All the teams felt lost. If they won a race, they weren't sure why the tyres worked and if they would work at the next race. The tyres were unpredictable from day to day, between sessions and between sets of tyres. It was thought to be a lottery, the fans realised this and many were not happy. The teams weren't happy either since race results were pretty much dependent on luck of the draw with tyre performance more than anything else. Soon enough the tyre make up was revised to create more predictable behaviour although the margin of performance was narrow. The teams and drivers really had to work at dialling in the tyres to exploit that narrow window of performance.
Dovi's frustration as he shared it, reminds me of that year in F1.
Quoted from: https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/151629/dovizioso-ducati-not-in-control-for-title-aspirations
"For me, the situation in the championship is good, but I mean when you have that feeling and you have a lot of ups and downs, you don't have control of the situation," Dovizioso said.
"So, I don't have a good feeling in this moment because I don't feel we have the situation under control to push in some tracks.
"And every race you can have a lot of ups and downs.
"This has never happened to me and us in the last four, five years, and I'm struggling with that and I'm very disappointed about that because nobody until now from the first round is consistent and I think it's something unusual.
"So, I don't have the answer and I don't like that."
Inconsistency struck Dovizioso during the Styria weekend, as he struggled in qualifying with a "strange" feeling from the tyres, and was scrabbling for pace on the medium rear tyre in sixth before the race was red-flagged.
He was much stronger in the 12-lap restart on the soft rear tyre, but was unable to use his strength in braking because he was stuck in the lead pack.
"Well, in the first part of the race it was really bad, a really strange situation because we work a lot and we did a really very long run in the practice and everything worked very well, and I felt very good for the race," he added.
"But from the first lap the tyre didn't work in a normal way and lap by lap it became very bad.
"So, I'm pretty sure there was something [wrong], but we already spoke with Michelin, they will have to study.
"I was lucky because of the red flag, I was able to change the tyre and the soft worked in a normal way.
"So, I don't have a good feeling in this moment because I don't feel we have the situation under control to push in some tracks.
"And every race you can have a lot of ups and downs.
"This has never happened to me and us in the last four, five years, and I'm struggling with that and I'm very disappointed about that because nobody until now from the first round is consistent and I think it's something unusual.
"So, I don't have the answer and I don't like that."
Inconsistency struck Dovizioso during the Styria weekend, as he struggled in qualifying with a "strange" feeling from the tyres, and was scrabbling for pace on the medium rear tyre in sixth before the race was red-flagged.
He was much stronger in the 12-lap restart on the soft rear tyre, but was unable to use his strength in braking because he was stuck in the lead pack.
"Well, in the first part of the race it was really bad, a really strange situation because we work a lot and we did a really very long run in the practice and everything worked very well, and I felt very good for the race," he added.
"But from the first lap the tyre didn't work in a normal way and lap by lap it became very bad.
"So, I'm pretty sure there was something [wrong], but we already spoke with Michelin, they will have to study.
"I was lucky because of the red flag, I was able to change the tyre and the soft worked in a normal way.
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Miller had a medium vs Mir’s soft rear in the original race so how that would have played out is uncertain as well though.
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Joined May 2019
607 Posts | 459+
Where I am.
Exactly. With these tyres, it's very uncertain. The softs may have done better when under conditions that we are accustomed to, they more likely wouldn't have and Mir would have run out of grip with 7 laps remaining.
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Ok haven't posted in ages but I always read the forum. This which I have copied and pasted is from jinx on motomatters, very interesting info about the brake ducts.
Yamaha 01 - Valentino's setup from Sunday. They have enlarged the upper "over the axle" duct but it remains a poor design. Intake ducts have a few simple rules: The inlet should be in clean airflow, the Yamaha upper has a lot of its inlet opening in the boundary layer attached to the fender/forks. By placing the inlet above the axle, for the airflow to reach it it must first negotiate a spinning tire, and the tire's relative velocity to the airflow is greater, and more disrupted, above the axle than below it. Next, all inlet ducts should be diffusers, that is they get larger in cross section as the flow moves towards the brake caliper. By making the duct divergent, we are slowing the incoming airflow, and so converting that reduced air velocity into higher pressure. And it is the higher pressure that you want, not the greater velocity. Inlet ducts also do not like sharp changes in direction or cross sectional area. In fact, they hate it, and the Iwata upper duct has both negatives in spades. For .... sakes, Yamaha makes musical instruments. If someone designed a tuba this bad they would be fired on the spot. The good news? Rossi was also running a small under the axle inlet duct that is an absolute peach of a design. Properly located in the airflow, smoothly expanding cross section, no ackward changes in direction, and feeds a mini-plenum to maximize pressure at the cooling interface. As small as it is, I would make a serious wager that it flows 80% of what the big one does.
Yamaha 02 - Fabio's setup from yesterday. Everything as stated in Yamaha 01 but lacking the smaller under-axle duct.
Suzuki 01 - An absolutely marvelous bit of design work. Everything positive said about Vales nice little lower duct but even more so. The highly efficient design allows for a smaller inlet than most of the others. My personal favorite.
Ducati 01 -The benchmark with no discernible flaws. Solid under-axle design ending in a substantial plenum. Nice.
KTM 01 - What impresses me (and others) about KTM is the elegant design and rock-solid engineering of almost every single component on this motorcycle. Someone spent the time required on this duct, and to tip my hat to KTM management, that meant they were allowed to spend that time. A design without flaws, but could be further optimized by using Suzukis expanding duct profile.
KTM 02 - But this shows where KTM has taken a step ahead. This is far and away the best integration of the duct inlet with the other components. The basic location ensures it is in a stable high-velocity airstream, and the careful shaping of the fender and the lower fork leg also means that this area produces a higher inlet pressure.
One small niggle: Motorcycle engineers, please stop looking at supersonic military aircraft inlet ducts. Those are designed for higher Mach values and have to deal with compressible flow and shock waves. To do so they have sharp inlets. You do not have a high-performance military aircraft, you have a vehicle traveling below Mach 0.3 at sea level. Your inlets need to be radiused. Look at the forward edge (lip skin) of any modern turbofan for commercial aircraft.
Yamaha 01 - Valentino's setup from Sunday. They have enlarged the upper "over the axle" duct but it remains a poor design. Intake ducts have a few simple rules: The inlet should be in clean airflow, the Yamaha upper has a lot of its inlet opening in the boundary layer attached to the fender/forks. By placing the inlet above the axle, for the airflow to reach it it must first negotiate a spinning tire, and the tire's relative velocity to the airflow is greater, and more disrupted, above the axle than below it. Next, all inlet ducts should be diffusers, that is they get larger in cross section as the flow moves towards the brake caliper. By making the duct divergent, we are slowing the incoming airflow, and so converting that reduced air velocity into higher pressure. And it is the higher pressure that you want, not the greater velocity. Inlet ducts also do not like sharp changes in direction or cross sectional area. In fact, they hate it, and the Iwata upper duct has both negatives in spades. For .... sakes, Yamaha makes musical instruments. If someone designed a tuba this bad they would be fired on the spot. The good news? Rossi was also running a small under the axle inlet duct that is an absolute peach of a design. Properly located in the airflow, smoothly expanding cross section, no ackward changes in direction, and feeds a mini-plenum to maximize pressure at the cooling interface. As small as it is, I would make a serious wager that it flows 80% of what the big one does.
Yamaha 02 - Fabio's setup from yesterday. Everything as stated in Yamaha 01 but lacking the smaller under-axle duct.
Suzuki 01 - An absolutely marvelous bit of design work. Everything positive said about Vales nice little lower duct but even more so. The highly efficient design allows for a smaller inlet than most of the others. My personal favorite.
Ducati 01 -The benchmark with no discernible flaws. Solid under-axle design ending in a substantial plenum. Nice.
KTM 01 - What impresses me (and others) about KTM is the elegant design and rock-solid engineering of almost every single component on this motorcycle. Someone spent the time required on this duct, and to tip my hat to KTM management, that meant they were allowed to spend that time. A design without flaws, but could be further optimized by using Suzukis expanding duct profile.
KTM 02 - But this shows where KTM has taken a step ahead. This is far and away the best integration of the duct inlet with the other components. The basic location ensures it is in a stable high-velocity airstream, and the careful shaping of the fender and the lower fork leg also means that this area produces a higher inlet pressure.
One small niggle: Motorcycle engineers, please stop looking at supersonic military aircraft inlet ducts. Those are designed for higher Mach values and have to deal with compressible flow and shock waves. To do so they have sharp inlets. You do not have a high-performance military aircraft, you have a vehicle traveling below Mach 0.3 at sea level. Your inlets need to be radiused. Look at the forward edge (lip skin) of any modern turbofan for commercial aircraft.
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Joined Aug 2007
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Pomona NY
Interestingly, the jump-off could have been avoided. Vinales has said in an interview, that he knew in advance he was in trouble, well before the dramatic exit-right.
"It was my fault. I didn't want to retire. I kept lapping before my brakes abandoned me. In the end there were no pads, they came off and I ended up without brakes. I should have stopped earlier. I wanted to score some points, to catch up in the standings"
Apparently there were some hard feeling in the paddock among the other riders who felt he'd caused unnecessary risk to other riders by not pitting as soon as he knew the brakes were toast.
