1200 approved for ama superbike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jan 30 2008, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair enough, but if the number has no relevance why is there an upper limit of 1000cc for bikes of 4 cylinders?

To my obviously uneducated self, the fact that there is a maximum capacity for specific configuration motorcycles must mean that the number chosen bears some significance.

I do recognise the difference between 1000cc, 1200cc etc but to me the point remains which is if, and I emphasise if the intent of the class is to have a maximum capacity limit of X, then all engine configurations that wish to compete should fit within that capacity.
OK. To save Jumkie typing :

The number 1000 has no relevance. The 1000cc limit is for 4 cylinders, the 1200cc limit for twins, the number chosen for each config bears significance only in context.

The intent of the class is not about a maximum capacity limit. It's about racing and for racing you need an approx level playing field.

If all engine configurations that wished to compete had to have 1000cc then as Jumkie said, the way to win would be to build a rotary engine and knock the .... out of the 1000cc fours.

The capacity limits are hence per engine config and are set (and tweaked) to keep the performance of different engine configs approximately level. The intention being to keep the racing close.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 30 2008, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK. To save Jumkie typing :

The number 1000 has no relevance. The 1000cc limit is for 4 cylinders, the 1200cc limit for twins, the number chosen for each config bears significance only in context.

The intent of the class is not about a maximum capacity limit. It's about racing and for racing you need an approx level playing field.

If all engine configurations that wished to compete had to have 1000cc then as Jumkie said, the way to win would be to build a rotary engine and knock the .... out of the 1000cc fours.

The capacity limits are hence per engine config and are set (and tweaked) to keep the performance of different engine configs approximately level. The intention being to keep the racing close.


Which is perfectly understandable and yes, I understand that (have all along) and even typed that way a little in my post, god I even scrutineer these things so I do know the rules and why they are there.

The point I am making (maybe not so well) and have asked is if the 1200cc limit for twins (out of interest what is the triple limit?) ends up with the same problems of domination or one sided racing, where to next?



EDIT: By the way, being in Oz I don't greatly care what rules the AMA implements for the US series (assume they are following WSBK basically) but just hope that whatever they are it is not detrimental to the sport in that country. And yes, I will fully agree that something had to be done over there given the domination by the Yoshi team.




Garry

The only problem i have with the 1200 is the fact that Ducati is not being forced to produce one for the public like the rules state.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jan 31 2008, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which is perfectly understandable and yes, I understand that (have all along) and even typed that way a little in my post, god I even scrutineer these things so I do know the rules and why they are there.

The point I am making (maybe not so well) and have asked is if the 1200cc limit for twins (out of interest what is the triple limit?) ends up with the same problems of domination or one sided racing, where to next?



EDIT: By the way, being in Oz I don't greatly care what rules the AMA implements for the US series (assume they are following WSBK basically) but just hope that whatever they are it is not detrimental to the sport in that country. And yes, I will fully agree that something had to be done over there given the domination by the Yoshi team.

Ah, I understand Gaz, to answer your question, I think that if it is replaced then we have the same thing, but this is the aim of the rules changes, so we don't have a dominant manufacture. All this is doing is opening the field to a company who otherwise would not be able to compete in this series because the rules are restrictive for other engine configuration.


Look at it this way, if nothing is done, then we still have our excruciatingly frustrating Suzuki cup and the rest are just there for filler. Hell, they don't even get on the podium. What they are trying to do, it seems to me, is open up competition to another brand that uses exclusively twin-engine configurations, to do that it must increase the displacement to allow for it. It’s not an unfair advantage, but rather recognizing that different engine configuration must be allowed to make the same power that an in-line four makes at different displacements as Yamaka46 helped explain.

BTW: Just because you are from Oz doesn't mean you should care all together because we have some Aussies in our series at it may effect some of your countryman, especially if they decide to hop on a Ducati or Buell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jan 31 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only problem i have with the 1200 is the fact that Ducati is not being forced to produce one for the public like the rules state.
I agree buddy. This is why the Ducati is not running a 1200, but rather a 1098. The reason the rules change goes up to a 1200 is not for the Ducati's sake, but rather for the 1200 Buell who is also trying to get into the series. Not sure if you had heard the news, but Buell dropped it HD engine and has made an exlusive engine for the new 1200 Buell and is testing to enter the AMA superbike series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 31 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree buddy. This is why the Ducati is not running a 1200, but rather a 1098. The reason the rules change goes up to a 1200 is not for the Ducati's sake, but rather for the 1200 Buell who is also trying to get into the series. Not sure if you had heard the news, but Buell dropped it HD engine and has made an exlusive engine for the new 1200 Buell and is testing to enter the AMA superbike series.

Although carrying the 1098 moniker, we assume the 2008 SBK entry will take full advantage of the new displacement ceiling and its motor will boost up to the 1200cc mark.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know it says assume and this is an article about WSB,not AMA,but WSB has the same rule about production motorcycles.Anyone have verafiable specs on the new 2008 Ducati WSB

Update,The new 08 1098 FP08 Ducati WSB has a displacement of 1198 cc.It only makes sense that the AMA version will be the same or Ducati wouldnt waste their time coming back to the AMA

Updte #2
One hot topic of debate was the rules surrounded pistons for the big Twins, specifically if bikes like the 1198cc Ducati 1098R homologation special would be allowed to use racing kit pistons. That has been answered, and AMA Pro Racing will allow the use of homologated piston kits.

It appears the AMA and the FIM has allowed Ducati to build a one off race bike ignoring there own rules
These words say it all
bikes like the 1198cc Ducati 1098R homologation special.

Homologation Special= Agreed on Special

What in the world is going on here?

You guys are either clueless as to how Ducati works or I'm completely misunderstanding you.

All manufacturers are allowed to build homologation specials. The Japanese can't because the bean counters won't let them, and nobody will by a $40,000 cookie cutter Japanese bike. If they don't sell they can't race them.

Ducati has always built homologation bombs. All R specs were semi-race machines that had race spec parts on a production model. The race spec parts were put on a production bike because they couldn't be modified for racing after the fact.

The agreed upon specs for what Ducati is allowed to build ARE NOT IN DUCATI'S FAVOR. The factory just demonstrated that they can sell production motogp replicas. There are rules about what can and cannot be equipped onto a homologation machine. Ducati was probably going to modify the Desmosedici very sparingly and increase production to the required limit (I think its only 500).

When DORNA and the FIM saw what was going on with the Desmosedici they probably nearly .... themselves because that bike would have ended WSBK or turned it into the ducati cup. The fights that have ensued after the D16RR's success are due to Ducati builing what they needed to win title after title. The governing body won't let them use it, Ducati probably secretly don't want to use it because the bike is too expensive.

Now they are fighting over what they will be allowed to use in place of the WSBK-ending machine they've accidentally stumbled upon.

It's gonna get ugly. You can't blame Ducati for being too good. Whether or not you can blame them for trying to make it look like they are an underdog factory who meddles with the rules until they are the favorites.........I guess that's your perogative.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 31 2008, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You guys are either clueless as to how Ducati works or I'm completely misunderstanding you.
You either know everything or you're misunderstanding us---I'll go with, you misunderstood. I think most of us are aware that Ducati as a smaller company and racing pedigree have the flexibility to make a race spec homologated bike. I think we were talking about the displacement issue. Specifically, the idea that displacement has more barring on engine configuration to power output rather than a set magical number assigned to racing standard displacement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 31 2008, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You either know everything or you're misunderstanding us---I'll go with, you misunderstood. I think most of us are aware that Ducati as a smaller company and racing pedigree have the flexibility to make a race spec homologated bike. I think we were talking about the displacement issue. Specifically, the idea that displacement has more barring on engine configuration to power output rather than a set magical number assigned to racing standard displacement.

Yes, I agree. Thank you for explaining. I didn't even mean to post that. I was getting pissed off over some tax filings at lunch and I wrote a rant instead of a post. It was supposed to be revised.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that the engineering of the sport that is going on right now pales in comparison to what I think is going on behind the scenes. Multiple manufacturers have been working on homologation bombs and none of them have come true.

Honda has been sitting on the V-5 for a half decade. BMW has been testing a bike for 2 or 3 years. Aprilia started work on the V-4 to end all V-4s in 2006. KTM and Rotax have been rumored to have been in cahoots for several years now working on an unconventional project. Ducati actually built a homologation machine they can't use.

There is something going on. Many of these manufacturers have the means to produce, sell, and profit from these machines. Yet WSBK is still heavily (and expensively) modified I-4s and L-twins.

Politics

What im saying is the AMA and FIM are allowing a bike that is called a 1098 but has 1198cc to race in there series without having to supply a minimum of 400 units to the public according to rules in both series.As far as i know,Ducati is not offering a 1198 vtwin to the public.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Feb 1 2008, 04:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What im saying is the AMA and FIM are allowing a bike that is called a 1098 but has 1198cc to race in there series without having to supply a minimum of 400 units to the public according to rules in both series.As far as i know,Ducati is not offering a 1198 vtwin to the public.
Under the old 990 motogp formula, I think there were weight penalties to try to allow for different engine configurations.

I guess as others have said the problem in superbikes is that everyone knows that ducati could reasonably easily if not cheaply produce and homologate a category killing 4. I don't know whether the displacement route is the best and fairest way to have gone, but calling the bike something which implies a displacement different to that which it actually has is probably not good public relations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jan 31 2008, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Under the old 990 motogp formula, I think there were weight penalties to try to allow for different engine configurations.

I guess as others have said the problem in superbikes is that everyone knows that ducati could reasonably easily if not cheaply produce and homologate a category killing 4 stroke. I don't know whether the displacement route is the best and fairest way to have gone, but calling the bike something which implies a displacement different to that which it actually has is probably not good public relations.

They are required to carry 15 additional pounds than the 4 cylinder bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 31 2008, 06:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, I agree. Thank you for explaining. I didn't even mean to post that. I was getting pissed off over some tax filings at lunch and I wrote a rant instead of a post. It was supposed to be revised.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that the engineering of the sport that is going on right now pales in comparison to what I think is going on behind the scenes. Multiple manufacturers have been working on homologation bombs and none of them have come true.

Honda has been sitting on the V-5 for a half decade. BMW has been testing a bike for 2 or 3 years. Aprilia started work on the V-4 to end all V-4s in 2006. KTM and Rotax have been rumored to have been in cahoots for several years now working on an unconventional project. Ducati actually built a homologation machine they can't use.

There is something going on. Many of these manufacturers have the means to produce, sell, and profit from these machines. Yet WSBK is still heavily (and expensively) modified I-4s and L-twins.

Politics

Ah taxes. Errrr.


Hey speaking of projects. There is an article in March issue of Motorcyclist magazine about the KTM superbike. (page 24). It’s a V-twin 161 horsepower stock (basically identical to the Duc 1098) to be launched next year. Have you read it?

Yes, these companies keep toying with the idea of entering and hooliganting a standard but never pull the trigger. What the hell is up with that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jan 31 2008, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What im saying is the AMA and FIM are allowing a bike that is called a 1098 but has 1198cc to race in there series without having to supply a minimum of 400 units to the public according to rules in both series.As far as i know,Ducati is not offering a 1198 vtwin to the public.
Not sure about that Povol. I haven't read anything on it, but if you come across something, please post. I'd be interested as to the explanation. Keep in mind, in years of rules changes, they do some special wavers like they did with the Patronas team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Feb 1 2008, 04:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What im saying is the AMA and FIM are allowing a bike that is called a 1098 but has 1198cc to race in there series without having to supply a minimum of 400 units to the public according to rules in both series.As far as i know,Ducati is not offering a 1198 vtwin to the public.

From the Telegraph report on the Milan 2007 bike show:

Finally, Ducati presented its 1098R homologation special. This £24,000 superbike is the company's ticket to the 2008 World Superbike Championship, which is changing its rules to admit 1,200cc V-twins, a rise of 200cc to keep them competitive against the 1,000cc four-cylinders. The engine has a higher specification than the current 1098. Capacity is 1,198cc and it punts out a claimed 180bhp in road trim or 186bhp with the race kit. Overall, the bike is 13lb lighter. The 1098R also gets a sophisticated traction control system, high quality Ohlins suspension and 8,000-mile service intervals, a consequence of the company's concentration on reduced maintenance costs.

LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 1 2008, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From the Telegraph report on the Milan 2007 bike show:

Finally, Ducati presented its 1098R homologation special. This £24,000 superbike is the company's ticket to the 2008 World Superbike Championship, which is changing its rules to admit 1,200cc V-twins, a rise of 200cc to keep them competitive against the 1,000cc four-cylinders. The engine has a higher specification than the current 1098. Capacity is 1,198cc and it punts out a claimed 180bhp in road trim or 186bhp with the race kit. Overall, the bike is 13lb lighter. The 1098R also gets a sophisticated traction control system, high quality Ohlins suspension and 8,000-mile service intervals, a consequence of the company's concentration on reduced maintenance costs.

LINK


I stand corrected,good find.I wonder if they made the minimum of 400 or if they are goinf to produce as many as they can sell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Feb 2 2008, 04:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I stand corrected,good find.I wonder if they made the minimum of 400 or if they are goinf to produce as many as they can sell.
Apparently 1500 :

from NZ Herald last month:
"Ducati have produced just 1,500 of the red-and-white Moto GP racing replica bikes - which are made of titanium, magnesium and carbon fibres and can reach speeds of up to 200mph (320km/h)."

LINK

Not sure what titanium and magnesium fibres look like though

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 2 2008, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Apparently 1500 :

from NZ Herald last month:
"Ducati have produced just 1,500 of the red-and-white Moto GP racing replica bikes - which are made of titanium, magnesium and carbon fibres and can reach speeds of up to 200mph (320km/h)."

LINK

Not sure what titanium and magnesium fibres look like though
Hard to know whether they are getting confused with the desmosedici rr which the ducati site says does have a production run of 1500. I watch all the races but otherwise don't follow wsbk as avidly as motogp but I presume people think the rr would be a fairly effective wsbk weapon and ducati's ability to produce this or something similar helped convince the regulators regarding the rules for a v-twin.

There is no mention of the numbers for production of the 1098r on the ducati site but the technical specifications including the 1198cc engine capacity are listed.

Those are 2 different bikes,the desmo rr is a v4,the 1098r is a vtwin.Either way the 1098r with 1198cc is the one that makes them rule abiding for the WSB and AMA if they are indeed offering 400 of them in the States.I wonder if they have to make 400 available total or if they have to make 400 available in every country they race in WSB.

sorry, double post.