Yamaha extends Rossi contract to 2018

Keshav · Mar 26, 2016

MigsAngel said:
The more I read on this thread the more I ask myself how would the current and recent top riders fair on the last version of the 500 two strokes. Meaning take away seamless gearbox, the heavy reliance on electronics, and the relative smoothness of the 4 strokes. Get it down to the right wrist and racing tactics, and not just peg it open and let the bike take you round the track.

Rossi - We know how he did...Crashed a good number of times, yet won the title and was second in his rookie year.

Here is how I see the rest doing on them...
JLo - I figure he would do as well as Biaggi did....crash a bit more....yet still win a title...maybe even on the Yamaha....
MM - Would crash more than anyone else today.....I dont think he can ride nearly as well without the electronics of today....he'd hate the 500s
Casey - Would ride them all day long and still win.....he'd be as good as Doohan but much much younger...so long as he was on the Honda....not sure he'd win on Yamahas or Suzukis....and definitely not on the Cagiva....
Maverick - Not sure about him not being good due to technology of today vs that era....
Iannone - He'd be as good as MM would be.....
Dovi - Good but not great...pretty much like today....
Hayden - He'd go well but not as well JLo would have....
Dani - Very very fast, and would do as well as Criville....but with more injuries.....
Esparagus' - Lots of crashes and careers would be done by year 2....P. would in the hedge more than he'd finish at the back of grid...I don't think P. can ride at GP level without todays scooter tech.....

Do any of you think that of today's crop that any of them would be as successful on the 500s?

On the whole - I think you can't compare generations. The guys who grew up riding two strokes lived and breathed two strokes and suffered all the high-side related injuries that were part of the package have a certain mystique in our minds - but realistically - you have to ask yourself- how would riders of that generation cope with the bewildering number of settings choices and how quickly would they adapt to the extreme lean angles etc. ?

Why is it that non of the IOM heroes (other than Hailwood and Ago) ever successfully made the leap to MGP? Different sets of talents appropriate for different eras.

Talent will tell. I do think the relative equality in terms of technology would make for a field where talent shines beyond machinery. IMHO a guy like Pedrosa who needs everything perfect would have lasted one season. Being a midget was not a plus in 500cc era. Finesse is of course important - but the F1 bikes required a fair amount muscle and rodeo skills.

Jumkie · Mar 26, 2016

MdubSTYLIE said:
Jumkie would still complain that Rossi's horse had sns horseshoes.

Dr No · Mar 26, 2016

Seamless gearbox would be massive advantage on a stroker. Keep it on the pipe..EGT. Pity we never got there.

povol · Mar 26, 2016

Jumkie said:
Well brother, allow me to chime in my perspective, i agree he could certainly ride, still can, but there is one very important detail you may be glossing over when it comes to Rossi's record, that for the life of me I've not understood why it gets so readily overlooked, worse, accepted as legitimate, and that is this: superior tires against rivals that had inferior tires. This point has led some to erroneously believe his rivals were inferior. What in effect we are saying is this, yeah we know that guy competed with enhanced aids (similar to say steroids) but hey, he really could ride that bike...with better tires than everyone else. It's as if we also might say, hey see that home run hitter like Mark Maguire, Barry Bonds, Jose Canseco, they could really hit that mother ....... ball!

So every time this comes up a big debate ensues, like yeah but still that bike didn't ride itself. SNS are absolute fact, Michelin's tire tier system is absolute fact. If today Michelin says, ok since Lorenzo won the title last year we are going to develop the tires for him, or, we will let him pick which compound Michelin will provide all the riders for 2016, so Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa, and Lorenzo will still have to ride their bike, right? Those bikes won't ride themselves. Are you comfortable saying, well Lorenzo deserves getting to pick everyone's tires, he's the champ (or on Rossi's case makes the sport money, popular, etc. And if Lorenzo wins the title, well, he earned it fair and square under the rules. Just for a moment, consider how Rossi might feel about that? Oh, we had riders complain in the past, Casey Stoner is on record saying his tier of tires were ..... Of course he got labeled a moaner and a crasher because...well his tires were .....

You may feel comfortable saying, yeah but Rossi, that mother ...... could ride. Yup, I agree. On the juiced version of tires. I for one do not recognize any title "won" on Saturday Night Special tires. If you do, then consider also records like Nori Haga who missed a title by 5 points because they found some ........ performance enhancing drug. Or all the juiced baseball home run hitters, put them in the Hall of Fame. Etc. Etc. Ya see what I'm saying brother? Frankly I don't see any way around trying to legitimize Rossi’s record. Look no further than the last two years and how tires won or lost races. ...., look no further than the race just last weekend. Compare Rossi's and Lorenzo's comments about tires. Lorenzo said his choice of tires won him the race. Rossi said they cost him the race. Now invision 5 years of Rossi picking his tires and everyone else gets 2nd tier tires. Qatar would have seen Rossi win. Then everybody goes goo goo ga ga, hey, that mother ...... can ride.

Like i said, looking back, im surprised his record wasnt better than it is and knowing what we know about his advantages is one of the reasons i said it. I will disagree though that Biaggi, Gibernau, Melandri etc etc were in the same league as Lorenzo, Stoner, and Marquez.Would they have won more on equal tires, almost assuredly, i still personally believe the competition today is superior to yesteryears. I have said it before, i find it ironic that Rossi's final powerplay on tires after the 07 season ultimately led to where he is today.After a totally illegitimate title in 08, his greed led to a spec tire which has not been kind to his legacy, 1 semi legitimate title (09) in 7 years.

J4rn0 · Mar 26, 2016

Sometimes Jumkie & C. here make me wonder when, according to them, Rossi's "unfair advantages" began. Because there must have been a beginning... Or was he born with them?

Maybe yes, because even the fact that he was born as the son of a good racer must have been part of Dorna's conspiracy. Why wasn't Biaggi the son of a WC rider -- heck, he would have beaten the Tavullia clown hands down then.

No doubt he must have had unfair advantages all the way -- of course also when he was racing in 125 and 250, -- how could he win so much otherwise, just an ordinary good rider! Not to speak of early 500 days in 2000 and 2001, -- no doubt as soon as the jolly guys at Michelin saw him, they must have been dying to give him some special tires: "Oh regard là, il'y a un garcon qui s'appelle Rossi, fait vite, il faut lui donner quelque avantage!"

557953 · Mar 26, 2016

J4rn0 said:
: "Oh regard là, il'y a un garcon qui s'appelle Rossi, fait vite, il faut lui donner quelque avantage!"

Oui

Gaz · Mar 26, 2016

Jumkie said:

Is that a picture from Pony night at club Shovel?

michaelm · Mar 26, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Sometimes Jumkie & C. here make me wonder when, according to them, Rossi's "unfair advantages" began. Because there must have been a beginning... Or was he born with them?

Maybe yes, because even the fact that he was born as the son of a good racer must have been part of Dorna's conspiracy. Why wasn't Biaggi the son of a WC rider -- heck, he would have beaten the Tavullia clown hands down then.

No doubt he must have had unfair advantages all the way -- of course also when he was racing in 125 and 250, -- how could he win so much otherwise, just an ordinary good rider! Not to speak of early 500 days in 2000 and 2001, -- no doubt as soon as the jolly guys at Michelin saw him, they must have been dying to give him some special tires: "Oh regard là, il'y a un garcon qui s'appelle Rossi, fait vite, il faut lui donner quelque avantage!"

I see him as similar to Doohan, he got on the best equipment because he was the best rider (in French, English or Italian), and contributed significantly to the quality of that equipment; I think he still probably contributes more to the quality of the current Yamaha than Lorenzo does, quite possibly part of his resentment of Lorenzo.

After his epic display of petulance and entitlement at the end of last season, including a deliberate campaign to discredit Marquez and to a lesser extent Lorenzo using his power with the media and over his fan base, it is hard for me at least to feel much sympathy for what he cops on this minuscule corner of the internet however.

To an extent even the equipment advantage thing only echoes what was argued in the past about his rivals by a large element among his fandom, concerning which more than a few people on here have long memories, directed at both Nicky Hayden in 2006 despite Nicky appearing to not even be the favoured rider for his own team, and Stoner at Ducati; Rossi unfortunately for him appeared to buy into the latter view himself.

Arrabbiata1 · Mar 27, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Sometimes Jumkie & C. here make me wonder when, according to them, Rossi's "unfair advantages" began. Because there must have been a beginning... Or was he born with them?

Maybe yes, because even the fact that he was born as the son of a good racer must have been part of Dorna's conspiracy. Why wasn't Biaggi the son of a WC rider -- heck, he would have beaten the Tavullia clown hands down then.

No doubt he must have had unfair advantages all the way -- of course also when he was racing in 125 and 250, -- how could he win so much otherwise, just an ordinary good rider! Not to speak of early 500 days in 2000 and 2001, -- no doubt as soon as the jolly guys at Michelin saw him, they must have been dying to give him some special tires: "Oh regard là, il'y a un garcon qui s'appelle Rossi, fait vite, il faut lui donner quelque avantage!"

J4rn0, in your eagerness to defend our hero, after a blatant jump start, you seem to have spectacularly run wide at turn 1 again.

As Michael correctly points out, he inherited Doohan's crew on merit and potential although whether he justifiably earned the creation of his own ancillary team is perhaps debatable. He certainly returned the favour in 2001 although I have always wondered what Junior's title defence would have looked like were it not for the complacency of Suzuki and the budget of HRC. Very simply though, how would this supposed genius have faired on a customer year old YZR500 near the back of the queue for the pick of tyres? As well as Abe and McCoy? I'm not so sure.

And speaking of McCoy, you will recall his reversion to the 16.5 rim - the sole instance I can think of that a concession was made for a lower rider, Michelin created a bespoke tyre to match his style which saw him become a contender in a vastly inferior team. Valentino immediately demanded the same, prompting a mass switch in the paddock although granted, Rossi was one of the few that could similarly exploit the rubber in the same way as McCoy.

Given that we are dealing with hypotheticals, how would the VR story have panned out if he had come into the class ten years previously, with far less forgiving machinery and tyres, significantly greater competition, on satellite equipment finding that all the factory seats were occupied?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

AntG · Mar 27, 2016

Dr No said:
Seamless gearbox would be massive advantage on a stroker. Keep it on the pipe..EGT. Pity we never got there.

Alex Briggs said a few years back that if they still raced 500 2 strokes today they'd still have all these gizmos on them as well.

AntG · Mar 27, 2016

Keshav said:
On the whole - I think you can't compare generations. The guys who grew up riding two strokes lived and breathed two strokes and suffered all the high-side related injuries that were part of the package have a certain mystique in our minds - but realistically - you have to ask yourself- how would riders of that generation cope with the bewildering number of settings choices and how quickly would they adapt to the extreme lean angles etc. ?

Why is it that non of the IOM heroes (other than Hailwood and Ago) ever successfully made the leap to MGP? Different sets of talents appropriate for different eras.

Talent will tell. I do think the relative equality in terms of technology would make for a field where talent shines beyond machinery. IMHO a guy like Pedrosa who needs everything perfect would have lasted one season. Being a midget was not a plus in 500cc era. Finesse is of course important - but the F1 bikes required a fair amount muscle and rodeo skills.

Surtees, Duke, Read, Hocking, Graham, Crosby, Haslam

Keshav · Mar 27, 2016

AntG said:
Surtees, Duke, Read, Hocking, Graham, Crosby, Haslam

My bad - should have rephrased that to say "so few other than". Tho to be fair, I don't think that the last three were of the same caliber and their careers in MotoGp were not as extensive.

And of all those mentioned - other than Haslam how many rode 500 cc two-strokes with any degree of success?

AntG · Mar 27, 2016

Crosby finished runner up in 1982 on a two stroke, didn't have a long career though because I think he got disillusioned with top level motorcycle racing and went back to New Zealand.

The others rode bikes which were probably much harder to ride than the 500 strokers with their 1950's-60's tech.

Arrabbiata1 · Mar 27, 2016

AntG said:
The others rode bikes which were probably much harder to ride than the 500 strokers with their 1950's-60's tech.

And prior to that, the AJS 'Porcupine' immediately springs to mind.

Dr No · Mar 27, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
And prior to that, the AJS 'Porcupine' immediately springs to mind.

How so?
It was reported as a heavy, slow pile. That overheated so much that they alloyed silver for heat dispersal on the head?

@Kesh.
IoM was once a round of the WC. Not sure what you mean by not making it in GP? But yeah, the leap doesn't go the other way.
Much as I am entertained and admire the riders at the IoM, it's populated by the willing, not the super talented. (says a lame arsed clubbie racer)

Added as Edit:
Newcombe. Late 60s. Konig marine engined backyard special splitting the factory MVs to come 2nd. That is ....... ballsy. Alongside Ekerold, a guy to read about.

Arrabbiata1 · Mar 27, 2016

Dr No said:
How so?
It was reported as a heavy, slow pile. That overheated so much that they alloyed silver for heat dispersal on the head?

It was indeed cumbersome and slow...the original E90 was supposed to be supercharged I think. But the fact that it was a slug didn't make it easy to ride - particularly given that he had to fend off the nimbler Nortons and the faster Gileras. Additionally, the races were long arduous and gruelling and very physically exacting on the riders. The IOM was nearly three hours at 260 odd miles and the Dutch TT was a two hour long 160 mile marathon. Ant's original point concerned the bikes being 'harder to ride'.

AntG said:
Crosby finished runner up in 1982 on a two stroke, didn't have a long career though because I think he got disillusioned with top level motorcycle racing and went back to New Zealand.

Henry Cole visited him at his home during one of his 'World's Greatest Motorcycle Rides' around New Zealand. He also went to Invercargill to see the garage workshop of Burt Monroe.

Keshav · Mar 27, 2016

Dr No said:
How so?
It was reported as a heavy, slow pile. That overheated so much that they alloyed silver for heat dispersal on the head?

@Kesh.
IoM was once a round of the WC. Not sure what you mean by not making it in GP? But yeah, the leap doesn't go the other way.
Much as I am entertained and admire the riders at the IoM, it's populated by the willing, not the super talented. (says a lame arsed clubbie racer)

Added as Edit:
Newcombe. Late 60s. Konig marine engined backyard special splitting the factory MVs to come 2nd. That is ....... ballsy. Alongside Ekerold, a guy to read about.

Yes - I'm aware of IOM once being part of th GP circuit, as well several other purpose built tracks that once were partially utilizing sections of public road as part of the course. Daytona was originally run on the sand.

Agree - about "the willing". For every Hailwood or Dunlop there were fifty shade tree mechanics with more balls than talent. At best a mid-pack club racer, my hat's off to any guy who'll put it all on the line there or at the NW 200.

AntG · Mar 27, 2016

Phillip McCallen once said the roads were the real leveller because you could get away with average machinery or less talent than somebody else because it's about how brave you are whereas on circuits it's the most talented riders with the best machines except for when it's wet like the time Phillip won at Brands on an aging uncompetitive(struggled for top 10's in the dry) RC30 against RVF mounted Hizzy.

Keshav · Mar 27, 2016

AntG said:
Phillip McCallen once said the roads were the real leveller because you could get away with average machinery or less talent than somebody else because it's about how brave you are whereas on circuits it's the most talented riders with the best machines except for when it's wet like the time Phillip won at Brands on an aging uncompetitive(struggled for top 10's in the dry) RC30 against RVF mounted Hizzy.

It's a sentimental perspective, but truthfully racing on public roads has a lot to do with luck and willingness to take unacceptable and even foolhardy risks whereas racing on a closed circuit is a lot more to do with skill. Racing that requires repeatedly shaving off tiny increments of time and hitting apexes and braking markers, whilst constantly changing tactics on-the-fly to prevent being passed by other riders, all of whom have different strengths and weaknesses requires a much more refined skill set than running time trials at IOM. IOM is undoubtedly a more macho trial due to lack of safety and those who excell there can be said to be heroic in the old school fashion. Racing on public roads requires riders to to take a leap of faith, in the same way Vikings did every time they went to sea. Modern MGP is much more calculated and more sophisticated. I absolutely revere Hailwood and the Dunlop brothers, but they're history and nowadays what you get on public circuits is a lot of average machinery and I've seen plenty of that as a club racer. I banged around on a used TZ 250 and remember the first time seeing Rich Oliver show up on a spanking new Honda fresh from the factory with all the tasty stuff that only top riders were allowed to buy, and thinking Now that's what the big boys get to play with. Both kinds of racing appeal to a different part of my brain as an enthusiast. Like Pov I have a big lust factor when it comes to the prototype aspect and in that respect IOM can't compete.

AntG · Mar 27, 2016

To be fair the current Dunlop brothers are none too shabby on the closed circuits themselves, they just don't see the point in paying 100 grand to get a ride when they can make a living racing on the roads. That's why the likes of Alastair Seeley and more recently Peter Hickman have started doing some events, if you have a good week at the North West or the Ulster it can put a fair amount of food on the table, have a good week at the TT and you can be paying off your mortgage much quicker than you thought. In fact Seeley did an interview a few years back when the North West was stopped after one race(2011 I think) and he expressed how disappointed he was because he relies on the prize money because he makes nothing from the circuits despite being a Superstock and Supersport champion and Superbike race winner.

I love closed circuit racing myself but I just love the grass roots nature of the roads, you can walk through the paddock at Skerries or Tandragee without a pretentious .... in sight.

Edit - Also i don't agree on the skill thing, I think it's two very different skillsets at work rather than one being better than the other, sure it takes a lot of skill to get around Jerez with pinpoint accuracy but it takes an equal amount of a different skill to land a 200hp Superbike going over Rhencullen without messing it up.

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