WSBK rd1 PI

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 1 2010, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is an interesting comparo
New BMW 1000RR VS 2008 ZX10r. Both withn Akrapovich pipes

8966:08zx10rvsbmw1000.jpg]





Values (hp):

ZX10R / BMWS1KRR

3000rpm: 32/25
4000rpm: 48/37
5000rpm: 66/54
6000rpm: 85/71
7000rpm: 103/90
8000rpm: 123/111
9000rpm: 142/130
10000rpm: 156/151
11000rpm: 169/170
12000rpm: 175/181


As you can see, the BMW takes a hit at low and midrange and comes on in the higher rpm range. Its not until around 10500 rpms that they equal out and by that point its playing catch up on a road course

In stock trim, it is not the fastest top end, nor is it fastest in the quarter mile. The reason it is not the fastest out of the crate is simply gearing to make up for what it looses to the other 1k bikes in the low and mid range. It just depends on where you want to make power. As far as the Ducati and restrictor plate, they are loosing HP and torque dont you think

That comparison only goes to 12,000 rpm, the BMW is capable of considerably more. The BMW could probably easily exceed 14,000rpm in race trim (maybe even push 15,000) while the Kawasaki would be struggling to maintain 13,000rpm.

The stock comparisons aren't terribly useful anyway b/c the bikes still have stock compression. All of the bikes run right around 14:1 in WSBK, but in the production market the compression ratios vary from 12.3 to 13.0. The Kwak and the Honda have the same basic engine dimensions, but the Kawasaki has more stock power mainly b/c it runs higher compression.

We already got a taste of what happens when one bike has a 30hp advantage over the rest of the field--it was called Qatar 2007. Stoner barely won, but it wasn't exactly difficult to pick out which bike had an absolute power advantage. If the BMW has a 30hp peak advantage, it shouldn't be difficult to see it.

If you look at trap speeds, the BMW is basically lost in the midpack. The horsepower advantage isn't present. History points to rev limiting.

Does anyone even know the fuel rules for WSBK? Yamaha just added more fuel this season. Any reason why they weren't running at the max? Does anyone even know what the max fuel capacity is?

There are a lot of things we don't know about WSBK.

As far as the air restrictors on the the Ducati, I don't know whether or not the Ducati is losing power as a result. The Ducati already has one of the lowest peak power outputs on the grid, and the changes to the homologation rules have been far more limiting to Ducati's potential. If they can't run the R models, they don't get the extra piston rings, the magnesium subframes, or the perfectly balanced crankshaft, or a litany of special homologation parts they fit to the R models.

I doubt Ducati will ever be able to make or sell the R designation in 3000 unit quantities. The price is too high, and they don't have enough Corse personnel to manufacturer 3,000 units either. The air restrictors are ancillary in the bid to control the 1198. They might only be precautionary should Ducati decide to make major changes to the bore/stroke ratio.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 1 2010, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Kind of my thoughts as well; however, I don't foresee the Kawasaki WSBK team folding like a tent after a long season of unfortunate crashes. Don't quote me though, they have been known to disappear at random.

Vermeulen and Hopper should start a support group for riders whose careers have been ruined by Kawasaki.
I wasn't thinking so much of kawasaki's superbike effort folding, although as you say this is not impossible, but more that a guy who was well in with honda after nearly winning the wsbk championship which he may have gone even closer to winning if he had stayed another year, who even on the suzuki in motogp had podiums and a win albeit in the wet is now over-riding a bike from a marque that has never been successful just to hang on the border of the top 10 in wsbk. Compare guintoli who got pushed from motogp rather than jumping as chris maintains was the case for him, and is now on a possibly championship contending bike after missing most of last season in bsb; guintoli may be at least potentially better but prior to PI would have been in less demand I would have thought, and surely would have been a year ago.

Hopkins does spring to mind.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 1 2010, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That comparison only goes to 12,000 rpm, the BMW is capable of considerably more. The BMW could probably easily exceed 14,000rpm in race trim (maybe even push 15,000) while the Kawasaki would be struggling to maintain 13,000rpm.

The stock comparisons aren't terribly useful anyway b/c the bikes still have stock compression. All of the bikes run right around 14:1 in WSBK, but in the production market the compression ratios vary from 12.3 to 13.0. The Kwak and the Honda have the same basic engine dimensions, but the Kawasaki has more stock power mainly b/c it runs higher compression.

We already got a taste of what happens when one bike has a 30hp advantage over the rest of the field--it was called Qatar 2007. Stoner barely won, but it wasn't exactly difficult to pick out which bike had an absolute power advantage. If the BMW has a 30hp peak advantage, it shouldn't be difficult to see it.

If you look at trap speeds, the BMW is basically lost in the midpack. The horsepower advantage isn't present. History points to rev limiting.

Does anyone even know the fuel rules for WSBK? Yamaha just added more fuel this season. Any reason why they weren't running at the max? Does anyone even know what the max fuel capacity is?

There are a lot of things we don't know about WSBK.

As far as the air restrictors on the the Ducati, I don't know whether or not the Ducati is losing power as a result. The Ducati already has one of the lowest peak power outputs on the grid, and the changes to the homologation rules have been far more limiting to Ducati's potential. If they can't run the R models, they don't get the extra piston rings, the magnesium subframes, or the perfectly balanced crankshaft, or a litany of special homologation parts they fit to the R models.

I doubt Ducati will ever be able to make or sell the R designation in 3000 unit quantities. The price is too high, and they don't have enough Corse personnel to manufacturer 3,000 units either. The air restrictors are ancillary in the bid to control the 1198. They might only be precautionary should Ducati decide to make major changes to the bore/stroke ratio.
Well Duh, what do you think the point of the dyno was. It was specifically to show that the Kaw was stronger up to 10500 RPM's. We have already determined that the BMW has a higher rev range and considerably more HP. And maybe, just maybe the BMW is coming stock about 1/3 of the way to WSBK engine spec, meaning when the other bikes get all of their mods done,they are a hell of a lot closer than 30 hp difference. The fastest bike by far in WSBK is the Aprilia, yet it only comes with 150 hp stock. BMW is out to sell bikes and they know that squids will buy the bike that wins the HP war in the big mag shoot out. As far as the Ducati, IT IS LOSING HP DUE TO THE PLATE,PERIOD.When you take away fuel and air,you lose HP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 1 2010, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Duh, what do you think the point of the dyno was. It was specifically to show that the Kaw was stronger up to 10500 RPM's. We have already determined that the BMW has a higher rev range and considerably more HP. And maybe, just maybe the BMW is coming stock about 1/3 of the way to WSBK engine spec, meaning when the other bikes get all of their mods done,they are a hell of a lot closer than 30 hp difference. The fastest bike by far in WSBK is the Aprilia, yet it only comes with 150 hp stock. BMW is out to sell bikes and they know that squids will buy the bike that wins the HP war in the big mag shoot out. As far as the Ducati, IT IS LOSING HP DUE TO THE PLATE,PERIOD.When you take away fuel and air,you lose HP.

It's not possible for the other bikes to close the gap with engine mods.

Compression ratios are really only possible up to about 14 (most manufacturers can get very close) and most of the friction reduction technologies are basically the same amongst the various teams. Revs make the difference. Revs are determined by stroke measurements which cannot be changed under WSBK rules.

The Ducati is losing power as long as the air restrictors are actually restricting air. Who knows how much air the restrictors are restricting?

If the air restrictors are enough, why did they change the homologation rules? New homologation rules have killed the R designation which means Ducati can't homologate the special parts they need to make power and cut weight (so they can add ballast in strategic places). Eliminating the R models was more instrumental in containing the 1200cc Ducatis. Bayliss walked off with the trophy in 2008, but the bike has been less stellar since then. Bayliss is an immense talent and I don't wish to take anything away from him, but Haga was defending Ducati's crown on an inferior machine to what Baliss had ridden in 2008.

Yeah, air restrictors restrict power, but none of us know how much or how little power they are robbing. My point is that the Japanese were not satisfied with air restrictors (b/c they probably aren't slowing down the bike very much), the Japanese wanted to kill the R bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 2 2010, 02:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's not possible for the other bikes to close the gap with engine mods.

Compression ratios are really only possible up to about 14 (most manufacturers can get very close) and most of the friction reduction technologies are basically the same amongst the various teams. Revs make the difference. Revs are determined by stroke measurements which cannot be changed under WSBK rules.

The Ducati is losing power as long as the air restrictors are actually restricting air. Who knows how much air the restrictors are restricting?

If the air restrictors are enough, why did they change the homologation rules? New homologation rules have killed the R designation which means Ducati can't homologate the special parts they need to make power and cut weight (so they can add ballast in strategic places). Eliminating the R models was more instrumental in containing the 1200cc Ducatis. Bayliss walked off with the trophy in 2008, but the bike has been less stellar since then. Bayliss is an immense talent and I don't wish to take anything away from him, but Haga was defending Ducati's crown on an inferior machine to what Baliss had ridden in 2008.

Yeah, air restrictors restrict power, but none of us know how much or how little power they are robbing. My point is that the Japanese were not satisfied with air restrictors (b/c they probably aren't slowing down the bike very much), the Japanese wanted to kill the R bikes.
I would be willing to bet any amount that the BMW doesnt have a 30hp advantage on the other factory Superbikes. If anything, it would be equal, and to the naked eye it may be down to some on power. I also am eager to see real world hp figures from Joe Blow where there isnt a cheater bike from the factory and massaging of numbers going on. My guess is the bike you take off the showroom floor will be considerably less than 183 RWHP by about 5%.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 2 2010, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would be willing to bet any amount that the BMW doesnt have a 30hp advantage on the other factory Superbikes. If anything, it would be equal, and to the naked eye it may be down to some on power. I also am eager to see real world hp figures from Joe Blow where there isnt a cheater bike from the factory and massaging of numbers going on. My guess is the bike you take off the showroom floor will be considerably less than 183 RWHP by about 5%.

I know. That's what I'm saying. The BMW should have a 30 horsepower advantage over teams like Suzuki and about 15-20hp over Honda and Kawasaki according to the numbers, but the naked eye and the trap speed figures reveal it has no such advantage. Raising compression ratio and reducing friction are a ho-hum activity for an F1 manufacturer. BMW aren't going to have any problems unleashing the potential of their engine.

What BMW lack is the ability to build a compact race bike that has proper chassis tuning and an complementary electronics package. Those deficiencies show up in the race results, but they don't eliminate the benefits of a 30 horsepower advantage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 2 2010, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know. That's what I'm saying. The BMW should have a 30 horsepower advantage over teams like Suzuki and about 15-20hp over Honda and Kawasaki according to the numbers, but the naked eye and the trap speed figures reveal it has no such advantage. Raising compression ratio and reducing friction are a ho-hum activity for an F1 manufacturer. BMW aren't going to have any problems unleashing the potential of their engine.
What BMW lack is the ability to build a compact race bike that has proper chassis tuning and an complementary electronics package. Those deficiencies show up in the race results, but they don't eliminate the benefits of a 30 horsepower advantage.
Neither would the Japs. Dont forget they are bound by the gentelmans agreement on 300kph and BMW is not. I fully expect the Japs to call that to the attention of the governments and you will either see the agreement go away,or BMW will have to start abiding by it also. The japs take a back seat to no one,even in F1,their engines were reported to be the fastest, they just couldnt get that chassis thing down pat. If you unleash the jap bikes,200 mph,200 hp 1litre bikes would show up over night.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 2 2010, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neither would the Japs. Dont forget they are bound by the gentelmans agreement on 300kph and BMW is not. I fully expect the Japs to call that to the attention of the governments and you will either see the agreement go away,or BMW will have to start abiding by it also. The japs take a back seat to no one,even in F1,their engines were reported to be the fastest, they just couldnt get that chassis thing down pat. If you unleash the jap bikes,200 mph,200 hp 1litre bikes would show up over night.

I know the Japanese can build engines equal to anything offered by BMW (they did it during the 990 era), but the Japanese can't make magic happen. If they don't have the bore, they can't make the revs or the power. Suzuki have had plenty of opportunities to build a more powerful engine, but they still continue to pursue very conservative bore measurements even for a Japanese company.

They have no bore regulations and no fuel regulations in WSBK. The technical regulations are looser than they are in MotoGP, yet the races frequently feature a freight train at the front.

When was the last time such loose technical regulations produced such close racing. Even the 2006 990 engines were fuel-limited to 22L. It was the first season that MotoGP was actually really really close at the front.

It was believable back when the Japanese and Ducati were brokering deals (the Japanese have basically frozen bore at 67mm in WSS). But now that BMW and Aprilia have been added to the fray, the possibility of a country-club agreement is becoming less and less likely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 2 2010, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know the Japanese can build engines equal to anything offered by BMW (they did it during the 990 era), but the Japanese can't make magic happen. If they don't have the bore, they can't make the revs or the power. Suzuki have had plenty of opportunities to build a more powerful engine, but they still continue to pursue very conservative bore measurements even for a Japanese company.

They have no bore regulations and no fuel regulations in WSBK. The technical regulations are looser than they are in MotoGP, yet the races frequently feature a freight train at the front.

When was the last time such loose technical regulations produced such close racing. Even the 2006 990 engines were fuel-limited to 22L. It was the first season that MotoGP was actually really really close at the front.

It was believable back when the Japanese and Ducati were brokering deals (the Japanese have basically frozen bore at 67mm in WSS). But now that BMW and Aprilia have been added to the fray, the possibility of a country-club agreement is becoming less and less likely.
And i would counter that argument that Suzuki,with there conservative engine design, has won 7 straight AMA titles and have been very competitive in WSBK when they have a healthy rider,including a title. When it comes to Superbike Racing,low end and midrange has proven to be the king.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 2 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And i would counter that argument that Suzuki,with there conservative engine design, has won 7 straight AMA titles and have been very competitive in WSBK when they have a healthy rider,including a title. When it comes to Superbike Racing,low end and midrange has proven to be the king.

So 1000cc engines work best when they have 74mm bore and lots of midrange, but 990cc engines work best when they have 84mm and lots of peak power?

A 1000cc Ducati twin will win almost everything in SBK, but a 990cc Ducati twin wouldn't have won a thing in MotoGP?

What is it about those 10cc that make such a big difference?!

It was entirely believable that these engineering conundrums were the work of the MSMA members who wanted bore figures to remain production relevant in SBK, but the emergence of the 80mm BMW and it's lack of performance makes collusion unlikely.

I don't know of any way to create parity across such a wide variety of equipment other than a rev-limit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 2 2010, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So 1000cc engines work best when they have 74mm bore and lots of midrange, but 990cc engines work best when they have 84mm and lots of peak power?

A 1000cc Ducati twin will win almost everything in SBK, but a 990cc Ducati twin wouldn't have won a thing in MotoGP?

What is it about those 10cc that make such a big difference?!

It was entirely believable that these engineering conundrums were the work of the MSMA members who wanted bore figures to remain production relevant in SBK, but the emergence of the 80mm BMW and it's lack of performance makes collusion unlikely.

I don't know of any way to create parity across such a wide variety of equipment other than a rev-limit.
You did notice i specifically said " When it comes to Superbike Racing," did you not.As much as you seem to think you know, comparing SB racing to GP is juvenile at best. With limited suspension and chassis in superbike,having a 260 hp 18000 rpm would be worthless. Yea, it would be fun as .... once you hit the straights,but would probably kill you before you got there.With the tech regulations in SUPERBIKE,the longer stroke engines with good low end and killer midrange have proven to be a very good combination over the years and are proving to be a better combination than a high rev peaky engine today. By the way, Ducati runs a 1200cc Twin in Superbike and we now come full circle.They keep parity with the restrictor plate. Without it,no bike on the grid would stand a chance against that long stroke, low revving,monster low end -midrange conservative engine.