WSBK Assen (may contains spoilers)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky 4th & 14th Kiyo first races this season: 22nd & 9th
Mladin 6th & DNF Kiyo first races this season: 22nd & 9th

Both the AMA guys did better except for the DNF, so has Kiyo had any DNFs? Oh yeah, twice, at Valencia and Assen.

Only once in the top 5 ( a 4th that coupled with a DNF). The rest has been fairly ..... Unless you want to point to that 6th (equalled by Mladin).

Yawn.

Shakey Byrne: 1st & 1st.

Fairly .... you yanks are at your own tracks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So one month's seat time, at least serveral goes, and your gonna say a one-off wild car is about the same? Haha. You see why debating you is a dumb thing I do?

What about the rest of my post? Any enlightening comments?

Well like i said if we actually use a comparible situation like wildcard performances then the BSB regulars come off far better than the AMA without question

If you are pessimistic and/or prejudice enough tol write Kiyo off after only his first 4 rounds of his rookie campaign with almost no testing relative to his competition thats not a problem, we can agree to disagree on his chances for the future.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now are you gonna explain how Kiyo got the bike last to explain his .... performances, perhaps Checa got the bike three months before him, eh? Checa is currenly 2nd in points, Kiyo is not even in the top ten.

I know you think a lot of superbike guys but do you really think a domestic champ is going to raise to a higher level as comfortably as an experienced and not too shabby motogp rider can step down to a lower one?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 1 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yawn.

Shakey Byrne: 1st & 1st.

Fairly .... you yanks are at your own tracks.
Yeah, I guess so, we just produce MotoGP champs and riders, WSBK champs. The one guy we can point to that has won a BSB title and a WSBK title is now in the AMA, I'll let you know when he podiums finally this year. He can't even keep up with some kid named Jason DiSalvo who is in fourth. Remind me how many times Shakey was a BSB champ, oh yeah, once. If you want to impress me with BSB, lets talk about people like Niall Mackenzie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 1 2008, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well like i said if we actually use a comparible situation like wildcard performances then the BSB regulars come off far better than the AMA without question

If you are pessimistic and/or prejudice enough tol write Kiyo off after only his first 4 rounds of his rookie campaign with almost no testing relative to his competition thats not a problem, we can agree to disagree on his chances for the future.
We are talking about Kiyo and you throw in other wildcard performance to try and pad the BSB, Phleg comes out and compares Kiyo to Nicky & Mladin, but didn't do his homework and found the cold reality that infact when compared, Kiyo didn't fair as well. So he looks for Shakey to make a point (lets just skip that he totally sucked in MotoGP, and sucked compared to the guy with the same bike, McWilliams, and to be fair I blame KTM when he went to race for KR), but even then, when he returned to BSB, he didn't do much thanks to his affinity for DNFs).

Now you want to turn attention and say I'm writing him off. Nah, he will improve. But you like to have it both ways, you argue that the BSB is better than the AMA, but as you see, the evidence past and current continues to indicate that you are wrong. You then try and say well its because the WSBK is so far inferior to MotoGP, yet last I check there are several MotoGP guys and they are struggling, Checa is second thanks to DNF by the top WSBK regulars (one of which he was responsible for taking out and forced a subsequent DNF.)

Ah, the .... piles on, but you don't even smell the heap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We are talking about Kiyo and you throw in other wildcard performance to try and pad the BSB, Phleg comes out and compares Kiyo to Nicky & Mladin, but didn't do his homework and found the cold reality that infact when compared, Kiyo didn't fair as well. So he looks for Shakey to make a point (lets just skip that he totally sucked in MotoGP, and sucked compared to the guy with the same bike, McWilliams, and to be fair I blame KTM when he went to race for KR), but even then, when he returned to BSB, he didn't do much thanks to his affinity for DNFs).

Now you want to turn attention and say I'm writing him off. Nah, he will improve. But you like to have it both ways, you argue that the BSB is better than the AMA, but as you see, the evidence past and current continues to indicate that you are wrong. You then try and say well its because the WSBK is so far inferior to MotoGP, yet last I check there are several MotoGP guys and they are struggling, Checa is second thanks to DNF by the top WSBK regulars (one of which he was responsible for taking out and forced a subsequent DNF.)

Ah, the .... piles on, but you don't even smell the heap.

You just read whatt you want to read. I didn't throw in wildcards at all that was phleg. I have said more than once now that like for like Britains wildcard record is better, but i know you'll continue to pretend that it isn't true.

The only reason i replied here is because i feel you are unnecessarily calling a rookie .... after a tough start, regardless of where he came from. Racing fans tend to understand the concept of learning years and realize that its foolish to jusge a rider based only on his immediate impact.

If you actually want to compare the quality of BSB and AMA then make your context more clear, are you talking about simply the AMA superbike championship (Which has offered Hayden, BB and the Go-Show to the world stage), or riders from supporting classes too (to include Hopper)? Either way BSB has achieved in a comparible pedigree in the same timescale despite having no real history to speak of previous to that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The one guy we can point to that has won a BSB title and a WSBK title is now in the AMA, I'll let you know when he podiums finally this year. He can't even keep up with some kid named Jason DiSalvo who is in fourth

You are welcome to use Hodgesone as an example of why AMA is the hardest superbike championship in the world, but to do so you would also have to support the theory that AMA superbike is harder than motogp, because Freddie Spencer couldn't win it. Same logic, and we know it doesn't hold.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I guess so, we just produce MotoGP champs and riders, WSBK champs.

We may not produce Moto Gp champs yet, but we sure as hell produce better WSB riders.

Foggy, Bayliss and Hodgson all came through BSB and were champs of it, are you going to tell me they are ....?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 2 2008, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you actually want to compare the quality of BSB and AMA then make your context more clear, are you talking about simply the AMA superbike championship (Which has offered Hayden, BB and the Go-Show to the world stage)

Anthony Gobert didn't come to fame from the AMA. He went straight from racing hondas in Australia to riding a kawasaki in WSBK, getting placings in both races at PI (his first time on the kwak) if I'm not mistaken.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ May 2 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anthony Gobert didn't come to fame from the AMA. He went straight from racing hondas in Australia to riding a kawasaki in WSBK, getting placings in both races at PI (his first time on the kwak) if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, but i included him as he was able to move back up to the world stage after time in the AMA series, helping to represent its quality.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 2 2008, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We may not produce Moto Gp champs yet, but we sure as hell produce better WSB riders.

Foggy, Bayliss and Hodgson all came through BSB and were champs of it, are you going to tell me they are ....?


Non of them could win on a big 2 stroke though.....

Pete

And Foggy is the biggest ........ to professionally ride a motorbike ever. And when you think that Charlie ...... Boreman does, thats an achievement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 1 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I guess so, we just produce MotoGP champs and riders, WSBK champs. The one guy we can point to that has won a BSB title and a WSBK title is now in the AMA, I'll let you know when he podiums finally this year. He can't even keep up with some kid named Jason DiSalvo who is in fourth. Remind me how many times Shakey was a BSB champ, oh yeah, once. If you want to impress me with BSB, lets talk about people like Niall Mackenzie.


Jumkie, youve just upset alot of folks on here coz theyve been following GP for 10 minutes and they are all going "Niall MacKenzie, was he in Braveheart? did he read the news on the BBC?" Google will be in overdrive for a while!

In about 2 days time, Tom will dismiss him as he isnt an engineer, and was (is) friends with Kevvy Schwantz, and everyone else who hasnt heard of him will dismiss him because he's not an Aussie.

I'm just gonna say that he is a ...... awesome rider and a ...... nice guy. Some things dont come from the magic google button...........I eagerly await the hatemail! Bring it on (But remember what happened to the last guy who said that Scots had never done anything, he looked like a .... very quickly)

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ May 3 2008, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie, youve just upset alot of folks on here coz theyve been following GP for 10 minutes and they are all going "Niall MacKenzie, was he in Braveheart? did he read the news on the BBC?" Google will be in overdrive for a while!

In about 2 days time, Tom will dismiss him as he isnt an engineer, and was (is) friends with Kevvy Schwantz, and everyone else who hasnt heard of him will dismiss him because he's not an Aussie.

I'm just gonna say that he is a ...... awesome rider and a ...... nice guy. Some things dont come from the magic google button...........I eagerly await the hatemail! Bring it on (But remember what happened to the last guy who said that Scots had never done anything, he looked like a .... very quickly)

Pete

Despite many of your assumptions about me i am fully aware of who Niall Mackenzie is and was fortunate enough to speak to him earlier today.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 3 2008, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Despite many of your assumptions about me i am fully aware of who Niall Mackenzie is and was fortunate enough to speak to him earlier today.


Tom, you impress me.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 2 2008, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you actually want to compare the quality of BSB and AMA then make your context more clear, are you talking about simply the AMA superbike championship (Which has offered Hayden, BB and the Go-Show to the world stage), or riders from supporting classes too (to include Hopper)? Either way BSB has achieved in a comparible pedigree in the same timescale despite having no real history to speak of previous to that.

RECENTLY, I don't know where to stand.

Since 03 (I'm using it since it was the last major time ANY rider from either BSB or AMA came to major series such as WSB/Moto gp), AMA has had Nicky, who has undoubtedly had great success, whilst BSB has thrown more riders onto the world scene.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 10 2008, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>RECENTLY, I don't know where to stand.

Since 03 (I'm using it since it was the last major time ANY rider from either BSB or AMA came to major series such as WSB/Moto gp), AMA has had Nicky, who has undoubtedly had great success, whilst BSB has thrown more riders onto the world scene.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other?


The uk is at last getting over the "post foggy" hangover of "we must go to WSB, If we cant win on a GP bike lets not set our sights too high." Britain has been looking for the next Foggy for years, due to the mass hysteria in the press when he was riding. We seem to be over that and riders are aspiring to the premier class again.

The press made WSB out to be the be all and end all for so long , because we had a brit at the front. Hopefully Toseland will prove that there is more to the UK than wanna be "foggys" and show that for the first time since Mackenzie and McWilliams, there is a decent brit in GP. (And just to be controversial, the first one in years who wasn't Scots or Irish.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 10 2008, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>RECENTLY, I don't know where to stand.

Since 03 (I'm using it since it was the last major time ANY rider from either BSB or AMA came to major series such as WSB/Moto gp), AMA has had Nicky, who has undoubtedly had great success, whilst BSB has thrown more riders onto the world scene.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other?

I’ve been mulling this over recently and it got me to thinking that although Nicky himself has achieved the ultimate prize, he doesn’t really seem to represent the pattern of recent history. Also as Pete says Britain is just now coming out of a post Foggy era, and we get a bad rep for some of out unsuccessful riders on the world scene, but in fact our series’ have produced plenty of very admirable riders.

In the 12 years since British superbike adopted the FIM regulations and ran a series that is comparable to its American and World championship equivalents it has provided 14 riders to world championship level racing. Of those riders, 7 of them have become race winners at world level and an additional three have taken podiums. 3 of the riders have become world champions, earning 5 titles. In the same time scale the US series has offered just 4 riders, 3 of them race winners and 1 a world champ.

If the racing classes supporting superbike are also included, the UK has bred an additional 7 world level riders, 3 becoming race winners and world champions, and 2 of them being podium riders. Equally the US has offered one additional rider, who has achieved podiums at world level.

These numbers heavily support the common notion that British superbike is the best domestic racing in the world. Coupled with the superior infrastructure, better organisation, more exciting racing and a higher calibre of team it makes me feel that BSB is further ahead than it gets credit for. We Brits have more to be excited by and proud of than we even realize.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 1 2008, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you are pessimistic and/or prejudice enough tol write Kiyo off after only his first 4 rounds of his rookie campaign with almost no testing relative to his competition thats not a problem, we can agree to disagree on his chances for the future.

And the Nostradamus award of the month goes to Tom for this.