Why the hate for MotoGP?

Kropotkin said:

Moto3 and Moto2 are more popular than the 125s and 250s were, but they took a while before beating records. Doesn't matter to everyone, apparently, though clearly, it matters to you.

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What are you basing that on. I know plenty of people who liked the 250 purpose built race machine way more than the 600's. You started this thread by showing a snapshot of of a WSBK and Moto Gp forum to make your case of the popularity of GP over WSBK. which by the way, i totally agree with you. Go look at the Moto 3 and Moto 2 forum, activity is almost non existent. You and others keep bloviating about the popularity off Moto 2, but using the same standards of forum activity, it falls on its face compared to GP. I have always contended that moto 2 could not stand on its own. It is just another 600 series, no better, no worse than DSB. Power limited 600's create close racing, you can find that anywhere. The proposals by Dorna are taking GP performance back a decade, not half a season. The death of GP has more meaning to you than most, since its how you make your living. You will be more inclined to tow the company line and promote whatever .... Dorna spoons up compared to us regular fans. Its only natural for you to defend and promote what puts food on the table. I would swallow my tongue if put in your position as well. Your narrative is "This is what we have, lets live with it" My narrative is, "your giving me less for my money, i will find something else " . This reminds of an issue i had last week with my phone and internet service. Neither was working properly, so i called to get it resolved. The guy on the phone is nice and tells me that he will send me a new router for the internet, BUT, since i became a customer 7 years ago, they know charge a 4.50 a month router fee. I laughed and said son, think about what you just told me. I have been a customer for 7 years, paid my bill every month for a service that you provide. Neither of those services that i pay you for work properly, and you want to charge me more per month to ensure that they do. I knew it had nothing to do with him, so i told him to relay a message. I will be shopping for another ISP, and if i cant find a better deal, i will stay with you. I get a call within minutes from home office, telling me how im a valued customer blah blah and that my new router is on the way, free of charge. What does this have to do with GP, not much except like anything else in life, you have choices. You dont have to take whats offered. If you are offered less than what was previously provided, tell them no thanks. Im telling GP no thanks. What your offering is not acceptable.

povol said:

What are you basing that on. I know plenty of people who liked the 250 purpose built race machine way more than the 600's. You started this thread by showing a snapshot of of a WSBK and Moto Gp forum to make your case of the popularity of GP over WSBK. which by the way, i totally agree with you. Go look at the Moto 3 and Moto 2 forum, activity is almost non existent.

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How many World Supersport threads do you see?

povol said:

The death of GP has more meaning to you than most, since its how you make your living. You will be more inclined to tow the company line and promote whatever .... Dorna spoons up compared to us regular fans. Its only natural for you to defend and promote what puts food on the table.

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I don't make my living by GP. I make my living by writing. I'd love to write about cycling. Or travel. Or motorcycling. Es ist mir scheissegal.

povol said:

Your narrative is "This is what we have, lets live with it" My narrative is, "your giving me less for my money, i will find something else " .

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No, my narrative is "everybody is bitching that they hate MotoGP and will stop watching and watch something else, and yet they haven't done." It reminds me of Mary Whitehouse. She would sit and watch programs, and then complain about how depraved they were. Everyone is sitting around watching MotoGP and saying "that's disgraceful! When's the next one on?"

Kropotkin said:

Es ist mir scheissegal.

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I don't believe that, and for you own life satisfaction, I hope it's not true. Then again, you'd probably not be here in the first place if it were.



Although Povol is rather blunt in his wording, his argument is not entirely off the mark. It's a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, most of us, myself included, will attach relatively more weight to your comments and will place relatively great trust in your knowledge of the sport. On the other hand, whether you like it, are willing to admit it or even think about it or not, it is hard to deny that you have a vested interest in motogp.

Kropotkin said:

I don't make my living by GP. I make my living by writing. I'd love to write about cycling. Or travel. Or motorcycling. Es ist mir scheissegal.













No, my narrative is "everybody is bitching that they hate MotoGP and will stop watching and watch something else, and yet they haven't done." It reminds me of Mary Whitehouse. She would sit and watch programs, and then complain about how depraved they were. Everyone is sitting around watching MotoGP and saying "that's disgraceful! When's the next one on?"

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I for one do not complain about todays GP. I complain for what is proposed for future GP.

stiefel said:

I don't believe that, and for you own life satisfaction, I hope it's not true. Then again, you'd probably not be here in the first place if it were.



Although Povol is rather blunt in his wording, his argument is not entirely off the mark. It's a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, most of us, myself included, will attach relatively more weight to your comments and will place relatively great trust in your knowledge of the sport. On the hand, whether you like it, willing to admit it or even think about it or not, it is hard to deny that you have a vested interest in motogp.

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When I stop loving the sport, I will stop covering it. This lifestyle is killing me, literally, so unless something changes, I may have to do something else anyway. I understand the point povol is making, but given that I have already have 6 totally different careers in my life, a change is not unexpected.

povol said:

I for one do not complain about todays GP. I complain for what is proposed for future GP.

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Good point. And a good distinction to make.

Kropotkin said:

How many World Supersport threads do you see?

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How many Moto 2 threads do you see?

povol said:

How many Moto 2 threads do you see?

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My point was, the support classes are not as popular as the main class. The general consensus among fans - with the honorable exception of the hardcore two-stroke fans - is that the racing in Moto2 is better.

Kropotkin said:

When I stop loving the sport, I will stop covering it. This lifestyle is killing me, literally, so unless something changes, I may have to do something else anyway. I understand the point povol is making, but given that I have already have 6 totally different careers in my life, a change is not unexpected.

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I sincerely hope it won't come to that and that you'll manage ok healthwise if there's any issues there.

Kropotkin said:

My point was, the support classes are not as popular as the main class. The general consensus among fans - with the honorable exception of the hardcore two-stroke fans - is that the racing in Moto2 is better.

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I agree, thats why i said they cant stand on their own. Moto 2 is like any other 600 series. It has more performance restrictions that ensure close racing. When you govern performance to a point where numerous riders feel comfortable in that performance range, you create , with emphasis on create, close racing. Take those same riders and add 30 hp to the machine, the number of riders at the front will decrease. The elite will separate themselves from the pack so to speak. Thats why i enjoy Moto GP. The elite, be it technicians, factories, or riders separate themselves from the competition. Personally, the more they separate themselves, the more admiration i have for them.

povol said:

I agree, thats why i said they cant stand on their own. Moto 2 is like any other 600 series. It has more performance restrictions that ensure close racing. When you govern performance to a point where numerous riders feel comfortable in that performance range, you create , with emphasis on create, close racing. Take those same riders and add 30 hp to the machine, the number of riders at the front will decrease. The elite will separate themselves from the pack so to speak. Thats why i enjoy Moto GP. The elite, be it technicians, factories, or riders separate themselves from the competition. Personally, the more they separate themselves, the more admiration i have for them.

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Interesting points. What is also interesting in Moto2 this year is how basically there are two riders that separate themselves anyway. Marquez' quality is obvious, and Espargaro's is become clear to more and more people.



To return to your point, the most likely scenario is that the elite of technicians, engineers, bike designers and riders will continue to compete in MotoGP, and they will continue to create a bigger separation between themselves and the weaker competitors. The bikes may be down 15-20hp because of the rev limit, and the back torque limiters may not be so ruthlessly efficient as currently, but Lorenzo, Rossi (bike permitting), Pedrosa and maybe Marquez and Espargaro will still be up front every race. What you will see, I believe, is the same riders winning, because they will still have the best bikes and the best teams behind them, and they are the best riders.



The difference that a rev limit and a spec ECU will make is that they will reduce the premium on perfection, and change the risk/reward balance. Right now, the bikes punish risk too much by offering too great a reward to perfect riding. Why is there no passing? Because the punishment for either not making it or making it but overcooking it is too great, you lose touch and the race is over. What MotoGP needs, in my opinion, is for that balance to be redressed, so that it is possible to take risks without losing the race. Right now, to put it in poker terms, every bet you make is all in, or nearly all in. You can't go down a few grand but stay in the game in the hope of winning it back.

povol said:

I agree, thats why i said they cant stand on their own. Moto 2 is like any other 600 series. It has more performance restrictions that ensure close racing. When you govern performance to a point where numerous riders feel comfortable in that performance range, you create , with emphasis on create, close racing. Take those same riders and add 30 hp to the machine, the number of riders at the front will decrease. The elite will separate themselves from the pack so to speak. Thats why i enjoy Moto GP. The elite, be it technicians, factories, or riders separate themselves from the competition. Personally, the more they separate themselves, the more admiration i have for them.

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Very very well put.

if we were talking about making the machines harder to ride i'd agree, but whats your take on rider aids?

thats what basically makes the prototype class at the moment and that hardly makes it easier for the better riders to shine through.



what will make stoner,lorenzo and co. look better than the rest of the field? what we have now or bikes with maybe even 30hp less but the only traction and engine brake control in the rider hands

Kropotkin said:

Interesting points. What is also interesting in Moto2 this year is how basically there are two riders that separate themselves anyway. Marquez' quality is obvious, and Espargaro's is become clear to more and more people.



To return to your point, the most likely scenario is that the elite of technicians, engineers, bike designers and riders will continue to compete in MotoGP, and they will continue to create a bigger separation between themselves and the weaker competitors. The bikes may be down 15-20hp because of the rev limit, and the back torque limiters may not be so ruthlessly efficient as currently, but Lorenzo, Rossi (bike permitting), Pedrosa and maybe Marquez and Espargaro will still be up front every race. What you will see, I believe, is the same riders winning, because they will still have the best bikes and the best teams behind them, and they are the best riders.



The difference that a rev limit and a spec ECU will make is that they will reduce the premium on perfection, and change the risk/reward balance. Right now, the bikes punish risk too much by offering too great a reward to perfect riding. Why is there no passing? Because the punishment for either not making it or making it but overcooking it is too great, you lose touch and the race is over. What MotoGP needs, in my opinion, is for that balance to be redressed, so that it is possible to take risks without losing the race. Right now, to put it in poker terms, every bet you make is all in, or nearly all in. You can't go down a few grand but stay in the game in the hope of winning it back.

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Therein lies the rub. For fans like me, GP is ALL about the quest for perfection, in the rider and the machine. The " show" is almost meaningless to me. You cant get any better show, than what DSB offers. Yesterdays race had 5 riders for the majority of the race running wheel to wheel, sticking their noses in at every opportunity. In the end, it came down to a last lap lunge that required the leader to slightly sit up and boom, it was over. If your a fan of the show, you couldnt ask for more, but the machines are not awe inspiring. Its like the drive Casey got out of the last corner when he made his pass for the lead. I thought damn, the technology that allowed 270 hp to hook up with that tiny patch of rubber is amazing, if a WSBK rider tried that, he would be launched to the moon. I enjoy all bike racing, and can separate them for what they are, but GP, with its quest for the perfect racing motorcycle is the only one i would say im passionate about.

I would say that none of us hate the sport. I think it just comes down to the recent decline in the sports strength. You see, we have had it pretty good for the past 20ish years or so. Now, we are seeing a decline since the economy is at fault and quite frankly the electronics are making things a bit messy. You almost have to concede that electronics are going to be there. Now if they get rid of them, I doubt very much that the manufacturers are going to stick around in a full factory capacity. But if Dorna can get their heads out of their collective rears, take the sport in the more competition the more interesting direction we may have a sport blossom again. If you bring the tire wars back, and bike makers can make a bike with a tire instead of how it is now, we may see the competition rise to the surface. They killed the rookie rule for another Spanish rider and that is pretty lame. Is it just Ben Spies and Stoner who see what is happening? I doubt it. They just aren't the kinds of dudes to take it. So they are leaving. And this doesn't bode well for us at all. It is two less riders who are very good and totally capable of winning. The CRT's are a disaster and need to go. If they want to lower costs, keep the rules the same for longer than a few years. Make it where you can tweak some things, but not all these major changes, cause that is the cost killer. Long live MotoGP. It may be dark days so to speak, but it can only get brighter....right?

ROCKGOD01 said:

I would say that none of us hate the sport. I think it just comes down to the recent decline in the sports strength. You see, we have had it pretty good for the past 20ish years or so. Now, we are seeing a decline since the economy is at fault and quite frankly the electronics are making things a bit messy. You almost have to concede that electronics are going to be there. Now if they get rid of them, I doubt very much that the manufacturers are going to stick around in a full factory capacity. But if Dorna can get their heads out of their collective rears, take the sport in the more competition the more interesting direction we may have a sport blossom again. If you bring the tire wars back, and bike makers can make a bike with a tire instead of how it is now, we may see the competition rise to the surface. They killed the rookie rule for another Spanish rider and that is pretty lame. Is it just Ben Spies and Stoner who see what is happening? I doubt it. They just aren't the kinds of dudes to take it. So they are leaving. And this doesn't bode well for us at all. It is two less riders who are very good and totally capable of winning. The CRT's are a disaster and need to go. If they want to lower costs, keep the rules the same for longer than a few years. Make it where you can tweak some things, but not all these major changes, cause that is the cost killer. Long live MotoGP. It may be dark days so to speak, but it can only get brighter....right?

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It seems the CRT's have stalled in terms of progression. Im not sure what it costs to produce a CRT, but im guessing a bit more than a WSBK, and .... load more than Josh Hayes AMA Superstock, err Superbike, which would have qualified for the GP race. The CRT's appear to be a huge waist of money

I love MotoGP.



I'm disappointed Stoner and Spies are leaving, think Rossi deserves a better ride, wish Dovi had a better ride, want to see new manufacturers and teams, but still, it's my favourite sport, ahead of rugby!!!



But WSBK leaves me bored shitless. Unless I'm there - being at the track is great, watching on TV sucks.



I never read or bother commenting on WSBK forums.

thedeal said:

Actually not correct,Foggy won more races on the RC45 in one season than Slight and Polen did between them in two years even beating John at Assen,not bad going for a guy out of his depth,when John won the title there was a lot of wet races and even he admitted had it been dry Foggy would have been gone as the RC was a pig but John was a master in the wet,and Carl did finish forth in a grand prix on a Cagiva, i think your short changing the guy by saying he could only ride the Ducati go look at him on the island on a Yamaha,if your going to compare lets see how many of those GP boys broke lap record on the island,oh thats it NONE.

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Yep as you have confirmed, foggy has done .... all off the 1k Duck. Isle o man? Don't make me laugh you ...... spanner, in your sad world Joey an Haslam were better than Doohan an Rainey? Stop reading mcn you sad, sad .....