Who thinks #58 should now be retired

I voted NO.



Not because I am some insensitive prick, but because in my mind to deprive a (future) rider of a number that may well have some meaning to them is unfair and insensitive to that future rider.



Yes, I understand that in many ways a retired number can be seen as a memorial, but in years ahead the fan (without research) will not know who or why #58 was retired, just as they will not know who or why #34 was the same. Both numbers retired (in theory) but for vastly different reasons will lead to differing levels of thought to the fans of the sport.



However, I would fully support a level or memorial to all our fallen riders, be that class specific or level specific.







Edited to add:



To retire numbers of our fallen also sets a precedent in that what are we to do if (heaven forbid) one of the top runners suffers the same fate?



We should not be forced to retire #1 etc, but instead all riders should be able to make a choice of whether they wish to take the number (although there needs to be an unwritten time constraint)





Gaz

Gaz said:

To retire numbers of our fallen also sets a precedent in that what are we to do if (heaven forbid) one of the top runners suferst he same fate?

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Actually, what about the mid-pack riders? What if Hector Barbera or Karel Abraham were killed (though I clearly hope they are not)? Do we retire their numbers too? Does the honor only extend to those who were popular or successful? It's a can of worms...

I think if Kato's number was retired, so should Simoncelli's. I don't get why schwantz's was retired.



Those guys have paid the ultimate sacrifice to contest in the championship and there should be something that both serves as a tribute to them and a reminder of what can happen if it is not your day.



If these incidents were more common however we would run out of numbers so I would have a different view.

Kropotkin said:

Actually, what about the mid-pack riders? What if Hector Barbera or Karel Abraham were killed (though I clearly hope they are not)? Do we retire their numbers too? Does the honor only extend to those who were popular or successful? It's a can of worms...

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Krop, as insensitive as some may find this next comment, I agree wholeheartedly and thus the intent of the post and the reason why I used #1 as emphasis



To me, once you retire a number due to a fatality thence you need to continue that memorial and retire all numbers that were used by a rider at the time of the incident, and not judge it based upon popularity or achievements.



IMO, as I mentioned there needs to be something but this business is very strong on superstition and many riders may not be comfortable using the same number, or having the number emblazoned on their leathers etc. But, I do strongly feel that we do need to have a memorial of kinds (and if one does exist please do say) to our fallen brethren.



Retiring of numbers should be for exceptional circumstances and should only be within the class of the rider, and again, should only be for truly exceptional circumstances (and I have no real idea of what could be classed).













Gaz

Gaz said:

Krop, as insensitive as some may find this next comment, I agree wholeheartedly and thus the intent of the post and the reason why I used #1 as emphasis



To me, once you retire a number due to a fatality thence you need to continue that memorial and retire all numbers that were used by a rider at the time of the incident, and not judge it based upon popularity or achievements.



IMO, as I mentioned there needs to be something but this business is very strong on superstition and many riders may not be comfortable using the same number, or having the number emblazoned on their leathers etc. But, I do strongly feel that we do need to have a memorial of kinds (and if one does exist please do say) to our fallen brethren.



Retiring of numbers should be for exceptional circumstances and should only be within the class of the rider, and again, should only be for truly exceptional circumstances (and I have no real idea of what could be classed).













Gaz

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If they retired tomizawa's and kato's, why should marco be different?



At the risk of being insensitive, these guys even,or perhaps in particular, the very best often have superstitions, and I suspect few would wish to compete with this number.

michaelm said:

If they retired tomizawa's and kato's, why should marco be different?



At the risk of being insensitive, these guys even,or perhaps in particular, the very best often have superstitions, and I suspect few would wish to compete with this number.

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Michael,



I agree, he should be treated no different but my stance has always been the same.



For me, if DORNA have officially retired the numbers of past riders then yes, Marco should be no different but only if DORNA have done it officially.



But, does that mean that we could (in theory) lose a 'place getting' number (heaven forbid of course)?



If riders choose not to use a number or to use it as their own memorial to the fallen, that is entirely their choice and IMO they should be fully respected, although I do doubt that many riders would change so soon as there is a level of 'unwritten' understanding.









Gaz

Kropotkin said:

Actually, what about the mid-pack riders? What if Hector Barbera or Karel Abraham were killed (though I clearly hope they are not)? Do we retire their numbers too? Does the honor only extend to those who were popular or successful? It's a can of worms...

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Can of worms? Its simple dude. Few riders die, its rare, hopefully even less as safety standards and technology improve. Retiring a number for a killed rider is not rocket science nor as Gaz says depriving some kid of a number. Retiring the number 1, r u kidding (considering ur previous worst peeps in the world list, prob not); so, i'll explain, the #1 belongs to nobody. Its a trophy.



And Gaz, if a future kid in GP doesnt know why in the rare circumstance a number has been retired, the .... doesnt deserve the number. Im also a bit confused, u say its ok for "exception" reasons to retire a number? Uhm, dying on track seems very exceptional buddy. I didnt reply to guy that said, well we could run risk of running out of numbers, this reasoning seems to me of the same vein. If we start running out of numbers, we hav a much bigger problem. And worried some kid is not gonna get his number (btw, a simple rules change made most riders in AMA change their numbers, some who wer strongly associated with it as much as 46/Rossi); superstition went out door, where it belongs.

Jumkie said:

Can of worms? Its simple dude. Few riders die, its rare, hopefully even less as safety standards and technology improve. Retiring a number for a killed rider is not rocket science nor as Gaz says depriving some kid of a number. Retiring the number 1, r u kidding (considering ur previous worst peeps in the world list, prob not); so, i'll explain, the #1 belongs to nobody. Its a trophy.

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But Jums, if a rider (heaven forbid) passes whilst wearing that number why is it different?



Just because a rider 'owns' a number should not be the deciding factor (IMO).

Jumkie said:

And Gaz, if a future kid in GP doesnt know why in the rare circumstance a number has been retired, the .... doesnt deserve the number.

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You will likely find that many of the kids out there today, from 125cc upwards would have no idea who had passed in years past, and many would never have heard of riders like Saarinen etc without some form of research. I just do not think that we should place to high a requirement on riders to research the past when choosing numbers etc.



Bearing in mind that legends will be stronger in years ahead due to the improved media coverage that allows longer memories and thius increased awareness of who has gone before.

Jumkie said:

Im also a bit confused, u say its ok for "exception" reasons to retire a number? Uhm, dying on track seems very exceptional buddy.

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Totally agree that it is exceptional, tragic and exceptional but it is level that I genuinely do not know what and where to 'draw a line' so to speak.



I really did not want to go here, but seem drawn but is Schwantz's World Championship and subsequent number retirement the equal of the tragedies of Kato, Tomi and SImmo?



To me, no it is not and to retire a number due to a riders death does not display a 'real meaning' of the tragedy of the fallen. As I have said I want something else that serves a better memory for all our fallen irrespective of who, what, where and the number worn at the time.

Jumkie said:

I didnt reply to guy that said, well we could run risk of running out of numbers, this reasoning seems to me of the same vein. If we start running out of numbers, we hav a much bigger problem. And worried some kid is not gonna get his number (btw, a simple rules change made most riders in AMA change their numbers, some who wer strongly associated with it as much as 46/Rossi); superstion went out door.

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I have no problems with running out of numbers as FWIW I really enjoy for some strange reason the 3 numeral race numbers. For some reason to me they look fantastic and superior to the single and twin digit numbers. Again, small but they just look better to me.

Thanx for reply buddy.



IMO, if u die on track, retired number, one of fitting honors. Yes, all deaths on track equal (weird point). If kids dont know, i'd hav them find the .... out. In any case, when said ....... kid suddenly wants 58 and told why he cant, just got educated. (Seriously doubt this would ever be issue). Perhaps only point i agree with is make it class specific. Yes, #1 is trophy, belongs to nobody.

I,d say no because the rider doesn,t own the number, even if they were synonymous with the number.



Where do you draw the line? It would seem silly and impractical to retire any single digit numbers and probably up to 20 would be undesirable. To prevent argument and confusion , I think it is best to have a blanket rule (no). Even if a certain precedent has been set, I don,t think it is a correct decision. Just as many people have suggested cancelling the last round, I think Simoncelli can be well remembered in many ways, particularly by his moving funeral and many generous eulogies, without resorting to other measures. We each can make our own version of memorial for ourselves, that satisfies ourselves and enables us to move on. The degree of grief experienced by people here is influenced by personal and recent events in their own lives, and reading the various posts here shows that there is a synonymity with Simoncellis death and personal circumstances that can result in deeper grief and a deeper need for permanent recognition, even if that is not necessarily the most practical outcome.

Have people really been talking about not doing the last round????!



So in comparison do these same people who think if it was to happen to # or one of the other big names (heaven forbid not) that have been around for a lifetime are they suggesting to cancel a full years racing in retrospect to how much more popular they are?



Flaming .... and twats get real 'dumb .....'.



I'm sure doing a lap all together before/ after a race carrying the flag of the fallen and a black arm band would be sufficent enough to pay track respects. And in private pay their own tributes.