What's Wrong with the Ducati?

BarryMachine

3623301380697769

 

Give it a go at explaining why you think its not a problem, not just kick and scream that you don't get it.

Your quote is dead right

Click to expand...

It's quite simple, Baz.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.


Remember when you completely wussed out on describing a set of experiments to 'prove' your claim? A DoE? Even just a magnitude of these forces you claim might lead.to you demonstrating some insight.

Go back to that, then you might be taken seriously. Until then, I'll continue to smile at your misunderstandings and misinterpretations - your kid on a roundabout example comes to mind. Conflating that with cough a VSG was a highlight of your cluelessness.

How long are you planning on that rope ending up?

barbedwirebiker

3623321380698204

I've followed this vsg thing for years, and to a layman such as myself it does seem plausible.

One thing that doesn't make sense, is the cancelling of the force with the returning piston.

Click to expand...

 


No it doesn't cancel.Each piston may be seen as a mass operating around a point ....... and this is where it gets hard to get ...... that point can be in space ( not a shaft etc. ) as the pistons on an engine are encased withing a hard case. So picture a 90 deg V engine and whereby that point is now between each cylinder bank.


At a moment in time, if one piston is going down in one bank, and the other up in another bank, then at that moment in time its like a spinning wheel operating around a point somewhere between them.


 


And depending on what config they have used in their big bang ...... it could be much worse than say 4 equi-spaced cylinder firings.

Can you make sn animated example to demonstrate this? I'd be interested to see what you mean

Dr No

3623361380703058

It's quite simple, Baz.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.


Remember when you completely wussed out on describing a set of experiments to 'prove' your claim? A DoE? Even just a magnitude of these forces you claim might lead.to you demonstrating some insight.

Go back to that, then you might be taken seriously. Until then, I'll continue to smile at your misunderstandings and misinterpretations - your kid on a roundabout example comes to mind. Conflating that with cough a VSG was a highlight of your cluelessness.

How long are you planning on that rope ending up?

Click to expand...

 


 


You dildo .... the kid on the roundabout is a perfect ( simple and easily tested for all ) example ( how do you suggest it is not? ) ...... you just have no idea is what seems the problem with you


 


And how is it "conflating" whatever you are suggesting is being "conflated"?


 


Now try posting some substance not just silly words

barbedwirebiker

3623381380704250

Can you make sn animated example to demonstrate this? I'd be interested to see what you mean

Click to expand...

 


:lol: :lol: :lol: if I'm paid I would do that. ......... When I could fit it in ....

BarryMachine

3623371380703876

No it doesn't cancel.Each piston may be seen as a mass operating around a point ....... and this is where it gets hard to get ...... that point can be in space ( not a shaft etc. ) as the pistons on an engine are encased withing a hard case. So picture a 90 deg V engine and whereby that point is now between each cylinder bank.


At a moment in time, if one piston is going down in one bank, and the other up in another bank, then at that moment in time its like a spinning wheel operating around a point somewhere between them.


 


And depending on what config they have used in their big bang ...... it could be much worse than say 4 equi-spaced cylinder firings.

Click to expand...

I thought that the advantage of the L alignment was mechanical  balance and a shorter balance shaft which also saves power. You are suggesting that the firing order itself  is detrimental. What precisely is that right now? Have they dispensed with the twin pulse? As I understood it the weakness of the L system is the physical length of the motor and the difficulty in weight transfer/distribution arising from this  - in particular loading the front tyre. Surely as opposed to reverting to a screamer configuration, dispensing with the L4 would be the way forward - perhaps even adopting an in line 4 layout? As radical as it sounds, ditching 40 years of history etched into the DNA of the marque the idea of a twin spar aluminium chassis was similarly deemed as anathema to Ducati purists. I'm not sure that the issue of firing order - a simple fix relatively speaking - is as critical right now as you suggest Barry.

BarryMachine

3623401380704425

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: if I'm paid I would do that. ......... When I could fit it in ....

Click to expand...

Not gonna happen then......

Arrabbiata1

3623411380705248

I thought that the advantage of the L alignment was mechanical  balance and a shorter balance shaft which also saves power. You are suggesting that the firing order itself  is detrimental. What precisely is that right now? Have they dispensed with the twin pulse? As I understood it the weakness of the L system is the physical length of the motor and the difficulty in weight transfer/distribution arising from this  - in particular loading the front tyre. Surely as opposed to reverting to a screamer configuration, dispensing with the L4 would be the way forward - perhaps even adopting an in line 4 layout? As radical as it sounds, ditching 40 years of history etched into the DNA of the marque the idea of a twin spar aluminium chassis was similarly deemed as anathema to Ducati purists. I'm not sure that the issue of firing order - a simple fix relatively speaking - is as critical right now as you suggest Barry.

Click to expand...

 


They have tried all the weight distribution things, to no avail. Its more than a "static" problem ( as would be inherent with weight distribution ) and to be honest, as much as I dis him, I believe Rossi made the best comment when he said " its the @#%#5 vibration" ....... its not a static problem when its a vibration, its an out of rotational force thing ( but I'm sure they have balance pretty much under control ) ...........


 


So what is left ...... its something due to a vibrational mass that can't be balanced ( you'd be inventing anti-gravity if you managed that an I assume Ducati can balance a engine ) ....... It can be minimized .... as you would minimize a gyroscopic force.

BarryMachine

3623431380706170

They have tried all the weight distribution things, to no avail. Its more than a "static" problem ( as would be inherent with weight distribution ) and to be honest, as much as I dis him, I believe Rossi made the best comment when he said " its the @#%#5 vibration" ....... its not a static problem when its a vibration, its an out of rotational force thing ( but I'm sure they have balance pretty much under control ) ...........


 


So what is left ...... its something due to a vibrational mass that can't be balanced ( you'd be inventing anti-gravity if you managed that an I assume Ducati can balance a engine ) ....... It can be minimized .... as you would minimize a gyroscopic force.

Click to expand...

The fact that Honda successfully employ a 90 degree V twin in the RCV illustrates that far from being an impediment they have exploited the advantages of the alignment.As I said, I thought that one of these advantages was the balance created by the matching vibrations in the motion between piston and crankshaft - but you seem to be suggesting that this is in a kind of disharmony - effectively negating this. Again - returning to the firing order, the advantages that a big bang yeilds is stability and perfect inertia torque so I struggle to understand why a screamer would rememdy this - particularly in corner entry - an area which the Ducati is struggling. Anyway - on reflection didn't Ducati bin the L4 quite some time ago, so my previous post is completely wrong, nonetheless don't Ducati still have the heaviest engine? The crucial variables are weight distribution, stiffness vs flex, and power delivery - all of which seem to perplexingly be in total discord as though all continuity within the project has been lost over the years. As many have suggested, it appears Ducati need to take some time out - as Suzuki have done - and go back to the drawing board. Engine layout/alignment is moot when it simply responds to the basic blueprints of the bike that Ducati insist is written in stone. Should be the other way around - it's a question of employing the correct engine alignment for the bilke that you are about to build.

BarryMachine

3623391380704251

You dildo .... the kid on the roundabout is a perfect ( simple and easily tested for all ) example ( how do you suggest it is not? ) ...... you just have no idea is what seems the problem with you


 


And how is it "conflating" whatever you are suggesting is being "conflated"?


 


Now try posting some substance not just silly words

Click to expand...

No that roundabout example merely demonstrated an meagre understanding of Polar Moments, not VSGs. PMOI =/= gyro. Hence, stupid conflation from a man hell-bent on displaying the depths of his ignorance.


 


Try harder, Baz and stop avoiding the questions. Your efforts at deflection are repetitive and unimaginative.


 


Here's a question for you: What's the direction and magnitude (not exact numbers, just magnitude) of a say, a bike's front wheel at 100kph being rotated at 90 deg (simplified so you don't have to whinge about not know the steering angle) to direction of travel at 1 radian per second?

I got a better idea .......


 


I'll keep thinking it could be VSG's and you keep trying to tell me its not ...........but submit nothing but drivel and very sporadic info possibly about spinning gyros.


 


 


you've not said anything sensible against it so far ........... so I'll keep thinking its the VSG's.


 


You have no idea what I'm on about do you :lol: :lol: :lol:


 


 


Polar moments ..............


 


 


 


On your question ........ I have absolutely no idea what you are asking for


 


Direction? not enough info ........ your rads. per second suggests it is going around a radius ....... but you don't give that .....


 


Magnitude? of what? speed? ( you kinda gave that ... 100kph) dia.? well most GP bikes are 16.5" rims aren't they + the tyre?


 


 


 


You tell me what the answer is? ........... though it has absolutely nothing to do with vsg's....... unless you can show me how?

Arrabbiata1

3623441380707819

The fact that Honda successfully employ a 90 degree V twin in the RCV illustrates that far from being an impediment they have exploited the advantages of the alignment.As I said, I thought that one of these advantages was the balance created by the matching vibrations in the motion between piston and crankshaft - but you seem to be suggesting that this is in a kind of disharmony - effectively negating this. Again - returning to the firing order, the advantages that a big bang yeilds is stability and perfect inertia torque so I struggle to understand why a screamer would rememdy this - particularly in corner entry - an area which the Ducati is struggling. Anyway - on reflection didn't Ducati bin the L4 quite some time ago, so my previous post is completely wrong, nonetheless don't Ducati still have the heaviest engine? The crucial variables are weight distribution, stiffness vs flex, and power delivery - all of which seem to perplexingly be in total discord as though all continuity within the project has been lost over the years. As many have suggested, it appears Ducati need to take some time out - as Suzuki have done - and go back to the drawing board. Engine layout/alignment is moot when it simply responds to the basic blueprints of the bike that Ducati insist is written in stone. Should be the other way around - it's a question of employing the correct engine alignment for the bilke that you are about to build.

Click to expand...

 


Well that is a remedy ........ perhaps as Yamaha may know .......... the best remedy?.


 


Counterbalancing pistons etc. does not negate VSG's ( imagine two counter rotating bike wheels bolted side by side on the same axle ) ...... on the L4 thing Ducati apparently merely tipped the engine back, they did not narrow the V nor reduce the instance of a "larger than they previously had mass" ( pistons in big bang ) moving in the same plane around a point. Though to be fair I have no idea what the exact big bang config they are running is ........ results suggest its worse that the old screamer, since its about then that the problems arose ( even for Stoner I would suggest ).

BarryMachine

3623541380725851

Well that is a remedy ........ perhaps as Yamaha may know .......... the best remedy?.


 


Counterbalancing pistons etc. does not negate VSG's ( imagine two counter rotating bike wheels bolted side by side on the same axle ) ...... on the L4 thing Ducati apparently merely tipped the engine back, they did not narrow the V nor reduce the instance of a "larger than they previously had mass" ( pistons in big bang ) moving in the same plane around a point. Though to be fair I have no idea what the exact big bang config they are running is ........ results suggest its worse that the old screamer, since its about then that the problems arose ( even for Stoner I would suggest ).

Click to expand...

I think it was looked at earlier than Stoners time, when they built the first 990s they had to versions being tested, Troy said he liked the "twin pulse" version as the delivery was similar to the twin he had been racing in WSB, Loris said it was horrible, so they went with a screamer. It would be good to know why he said it was horrible as this may back up your theory.

BarryMachine

3623531380724457

I got a better idea .......


 


I'll keep thinking it could be VSG's and you keep trying to tell me its not ...........but submit nothing but drivel and very sporadic info possibly about spinning gyros.


 


 


you've not said anything sensible against it so far ........... so I'll keep thinking its the VSG's.


 


You have no idea what I'm on about do you :lol: :lol: :lol:


 


 


Polar moments ..............


 


 


 


On your question ........ I have absolutely no idea what you are asking for


 


Direction? not enough info ........ your rads. per second suggests it is going around a radius ....... but you don't give that .....


 


Magnitude? of what? speed? ( you kinda gave that ... 100kph) dia.? well most GP bikes are 16.5" rims aren't they + the tyre?


 


 


 


You tell me what the answer is? ........... though it has absolutely nothing to do with vsg's....... unless you can show me how?

Click to expand...

 


I perfectly understand what you're saying, Bazza. Now let's pretend I become insane, drop several dozen IQ points (making them sub-zero) and decide to ignore Newtonian physics. This allows me to address your "VSGs" directly:


Based on your descriptions, I take them to be analogous to some sort of phantom rocking couple between the pistons, with an instantaneous centre somewhere within the cylinder V.


Please, as repeatedly asked, provide the magnitude and direction of these "forces" / "vibrations".


 


 


Now returning to above zero IQ, the point of the gyroscopic force question was to sound out whether you possessed the slightest clue as to the source, magnitude and direction of any of the forces on a motorcycle in motion. Which by your usual deflective response, you clearly do not.

Dr No

3623671380757667

I perfectly understand what you're saying, Bazza. No, I doubt it ......based on the following .....        Now let's pretend I become insane, drop several dozen IQ points (making them sub-zero) and decide to ignore Newtonian physics. This allows me to address your "VSGs" directly: What did Newton say about VSG's?


Based on your descriptions, I take them to be analogous to some sort of phantom rocking couple between the pistons, with an instantaneous centre somewhere within the cylinder V. You are kinda getting it here.


Please, as repeatedly asked, provide the magnitude and direction of these "forces" / "vibrations".  How can I do that? I have only guesses at data. I am theorizing what should follow next would be the experimentation. Get real ......... I'm beginning to think you aren't really a doctor? :lol: :lol: :lol: .


 


 


Now returning to above zero IQ, the point of the gyroscopic force question was to sound out whether you possessed the slightest clue as to the source, magnitude and direction of any of the forces on a motorcycle in motion. Which by your usual deflective response, you clearly do not.  And bam!! you blow it here WTF does any of that mean especially given that you have not asked a coherent question yet

Click to expand...

Experiment?

Been asking you about that for ages, hence my questions concerning magntude of forces. You walked into that one a treat.


Let's make it Really Easy, since you are one putting forward the theory, Mr Machine.

You know the plane of action of the cough phantom couple (after all, you stated it). You know that a bike leans around an axis at the tyre contact patches.

Soooo. What's the direction of the resultant cough force/vibration?

Dr No

3623881380778976

Experiment?

Been asking you about that for ages, hence my questions concerning magntude of forces. You walked into that one a treat.


Let's make it Really Easy, since you are one putting forward the theory, Mr Machine.

You know the plane of action of the cough phantom couple (after all, you stated it). You know that a bike leans around an axis at the tyre contact patches.

Soooo. What's the direction of the resultant cough force/vibration?

Click to expand...

 


The direction ...... thats easy ......  its effectively straight forward due to the effect whereby it fights a tendency to allow the bike to yaw. ( longitudinal to the bike ) Meaning it will go straight well but resonantly fight attempts to turn the bike. So if you are attempting to turn the bike there will be a vibrating force fighting the traction at the tyres, its also possible that the front could be subjected to that force worse as the front end turns relative to the longitudinal axis of the bike. Along a plane parallel to a plane passing between the reciprocating masses and a point in space between those two reciprocating masses.

You mean in the same plane as the unbalanced second order forces from the 90deg V?

Don't waste my time

Come in spinner.


And there you have it.

Enough rope to hang a posse of Barry and his Machines.

Gutless wonder.