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What does the future hold for Jack Miller?

AJV80 said:
The power delivery on the 500cc is in a very narrow power band and comes on brutally with much more power than a 125 has, it has a totally different engine characteristic to a MotoGP's more linear power delivery. Not saying Marc would be hopeless on one, but given his wild riding style it wouldn't be anywhere near as forgiving as his MotoGP is with its current electronics.

To compare MM and JL on a 500, I would say MM's riding style would be much more prone to highsides on a 500 than JL's .... I could be wrong.
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Put Marquez on any bike and he will win on it. He is one of those kids who never gives up no matter how hurt he gets. He only knows to ride fast, all the time.

Lorenzo would been very good on a 500. He was awesome on a 250 too. To be honest those who think only Rossi would win now on a 500 are a bit daft, I've heard it many times that he would dominate if they were on the 500. What a load of ..... Put the top lads on any bike and they will win.

Example, look at Marquez when he does flat track, totally different beast to MotoGP, yet he still wipes up most of the time
 
Richy56 said:
Put Marquez on any bike and he will win on it. He is one of those kids who never gives up no matter how hurt he gets. He only knows to ride fast, all the time.

Lorenzo would been very good on a 500. He was awesome on a 250 too. To be honest those who think only Rossi would win now on a 500 are a bit daft, I've heard it many times that he would dominate if they were on the 500. What a load of ..... Put the top lads on any bike and they will win.

Example, look at Marquez when he does flat track, totally different beast to MotoGP, yet he still wipes up most of the time
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I agree with you in that MM wouldn't let falling off deter him from trying, thats for sure. But i do think if they where to run 500's again MM would definitely have a load of spills in his first season getting used to it compared to someone like JL at least. But yes, he would be fast on anything.

Actually, Lorenzo's style of smooth repeatable precision and consistency actually makes me think he would be a lot quicker than Rossi on a 500, his style actually suits a 500 really well.

Guess we'll never know though, pity.
 
AJV80 said:
I agree with you in that MM wouldn't let falling off deter him from trying, thats for sure. But i do think if they where to run 500's again MM would definitely have a load of spills in his first season getting used to it compared to someone like JL at least. But yes, he would be fast on anything.

Actually, Lorenzo's style of smooth repeatable precision and consistency actually makes me think he would be a lot quicker than Rossi on a 500, his style actually suits a 500 really well.

Guess we'll never know though, pity.
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We actually do know Rossi can ride a 500, 2nd on one in his rookie year, champion the next year.
 
AJV80 said:
Actually, Lorenzo's style of smooth repeatable precision and consistency actually makes me think he would be a lot quicker than Rossi on a 500, his style actually suits a 500 really well.
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In time yes, but the 250 style is far more alien to a 500 than people appreciate. Dani impressed me because he immediately shed his old habits when moving to the 990 and although this involved a very different process of adaptation to the 500, it was great to see him snapping the bike upright on the corner exit just as he would have had to have done on the 500 bike. Would have been interesting to have seen him in the class.

Back to Jorge, I still feel that the awkward and ferocious nature of a 500 would have initially caused him appreciable problems. I’ve noticed that those that cling to and export a 250cc riding style tend to be ‘head riders’ and are also more susceptible/sensitive to the vagaries of set up, rubber and variables such as track conditions, (surface grip, temperature and weather). Max was the same. I mentioned Geoff Duke on another thread. Stanley Woods used to describe watching him as like ‘water flowing over stones in a brook’. Lorenzo is the same – almost Lawson-esque, but with Lawson there was plenty more going on under the surface and his seamless style belied the tempestuous nature and the white water ride of the 500s. I’m not sure Jorge could have negotiated the rapids so smoothly.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
In time yes, but the 250 style is far more alien to a 500 than people appreciate. Dani impressed me because he immediately shed his old habits when moving to the 990 and although this involved a very different process of adaptation to the 500, it was great to see him snapping the bike upright on the corner exit just as he would have had to have done on the 500 bike. Would have been interesting to have seen him in the class.

Back to Jorge, I still feel that the awkward and ferocious nature of a 500 would have initially caused him appreciable problems. I’ve noticed that those that cling to and export a 250cc riding style tend to be ‘head riders’ and are also more susceptible/sensitive to the vagaries of set up, rubber and variables such as track conditions, (surface grip, temperature and weather). Max was the same. I mentioned Geoff Duke on another thread. Stanley Woods used to describe watching him as like ‘water flowing over stones in a brook’. Lorenzo is the same – almost Lawson-esque, but with Lawson there was plenty more going on under the surface and his seamless style belied the tempestuous nature and the white water ride of the 500s. I’m not sure Jorge could have negotiated the rapids so smoothly.
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Fair point, I remember a detailed interview with Gardner about trying to set a pole lap at PI and the challenges of the bike. The way he described it was that the window of error on a 500 was so narrow that delaying a throttle movement even for a split second on a corner exit would completely ruin your flying lap. Coupled with being a split second early on the throttle would send you flying into the sky.

I think anybody not used to a 500 and wanting to go fast is going to have a number of off's. I know towards the end of the 500 period that electronics started to get introduced. I know Doohan preferred not to use traction control as he thought it negatively effected the bike, but if they where to do a 500 series today I'm sure they would run electronics with todays level of sophistication.
 
AJV80 said:
I think anybody not used to a 500 and wanting to go fast is going to have a number of off's. I know towards the end of the 500 period that electronics started to get introduced. I know Doohan preferred not to use traction control as he thought it negatively effected the bike, but if they where to do a 500 series today I'm sure they would run electronics with todays level of sophistication.
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Rossi's were quite sophisticated for the day including the option to switch between three engine maps. When Capirossi inherited the bikes in 2002 he famously opined, 'now we see why Vale won so much'.
 
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Arrabbiata1 said:
Rossi's were quite sophisticated for the day including the option to switch between three engine maps. When Capirossi inherited the bikes in 2002 he famously opined, 'now we see why Vale won so much'.
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Sure, but he still only missed being on the same track as Doohan by a year.

I go with JPS, imo he would have been competitive in the "golden era" with the great riders of that era, but not to the extent of five titles in a row. I don't think those riders would have been very troubled by off track "mind games" either.
 
michaelm said:
Sure, but he still only missed being on the same track as Doohan by a year.

I go with JPS, imo he would have been competitive in the "golden era" with the great riders of that era, but not to the extent of five titles in a row. I don't think those riders would have been very troubled by off track "mind games" either.
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The riders now don't get affected do they? Rossis off track mind games affect only himself, and certainly not Marquez, stoner and Lorenzo. When they have no affect he has a meltdown

The last bloke who they did have an effect was was sete
 
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Richy56 said:
Put Marquez on any bike and he will win on it. He is one of those kids who never gives up no matter how hurt he gets. He only knows to ride fast, all the time.

Lorenzo would been very good on a 500. He was awesome on a 250 too. To be honest those who think only Rossi would win now on a 500 are a bit daft, I've heard it many times that he would dominate if they were on the 500. What a load of ..... Put the top lads on any bike and they will win.

Example, look at Marquez when he does flat track, totally different beast to MotoGP, yet he still wipes up most of the time
Click to expand...

The thing going against MM is that he hasn't shown he can effectively adapt his style. Don't forget he was trying to do that before the season began to adjust for the new Michelin tires. He gave up on a new approach. Now, I can't argue that his A game riding style is working this year. But in the long run, adaptability is going to be something to look for with MM. Rossi is only competitive in 2016 because he has adapted his riding style numerous times over the years which is remarkable given how infrequently it happens among motorsport competitors. There's a long list of guys who found themselves out of their respective series due to being unable to adapt to the changes as the years went by. Based on his talent level, I do think MM should be able to adapt, but we're never really going to know until we see a formula change to GP...and I don't know when that will ever happen.
 
JPSLotus said:
The thing going against MM is that he hasn't shown he can effectively adapt his style. Don't forget he was trying to do that before the season began to adjust for the new Michelin tires. He gave up on a new approach. Now, I can't argue that his A game riding style is working this year. But in the long run, adaptability is going to be something to look for with MM. Rossi is only competitive in 2016 because he has adapted his riding style numerous times over the years which is remarkable given how infrequently it happens among motorsport competitors. There's a long list of guys who found themselves out of their respective series due to being unable to adapt to the changes as the years went by. Based on his talent level, I do think MM should be able to adapt, but we're never really going to know until we see a formula change to GP...and I don't know when that will ever happen.
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Agree we will never know until he gets the chance.

Must not forget though that Marquez,s style was pretty radical when he came into MotoGP in 2013. Elbow down hanging right off the bike, everyone thought he was nuts but when he won the title, nearly all including Rossi started hanging off a lot more and elbows out down.

Up until the end of 2012, start of 2013, Rossis style has hardly ever changed. Burgess told him to change it to hang off more like stoner and Lorenzo in 2012, but got upset, sacked him and then changed his style ultimately to be more Marquez like. Burgess deserved that credit.

Rossi hasn't defined a style, Marquez did.
 
Richy56 said:
The riders now don't get affected do they? Rossis off track mind games affect only himself, and certainly not Marquez, stoner and Lorenzo. When they have no affect he has a meltdown

The last bloke who they did have an effect was was sete
Click to expand...

I don't think the so-called "mind games" helped/help him competitively against Stoner and Lorenzo at all. But he imo succeeded/is succeeding in making their working lives less enjoyable/their success less appreciated, contributing to Stoner's early retirement and Jorge's Ducati move so soon after saying he wanted to be a Yamaha icon like the other 3 time Yamaha champions.

MM is a different matter, he seems very much of the don't get mad get even school, and with his talent and performances and the knowledge he has Repsol Honda behind him appears to have little or no susceptibility to dismay.
 
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michaelm said:
I don't think the so-called "mind games" helped/help him competitively against Stoner and Lorenzo at all. But he imo succeeded/is succeeding in making their working lives less enjoyable/their success less appreciated, contributing to Stoner's early retirement and Jorge's Ducati move so soon after saying he wanted to be a Yamaha icon like the other 3 time Yamaha champions.

MM is a different matter, he seems very much of the don't get mad get even school, and with his talent and performances and the knowledge he has Repsol Honda behind him appears to have little or no susceptibility to dismay.
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I remember an interview in the doco movie 'Fasterr' 2003 where somebody explained that Rossi was riding at a different level to the current crop of riders and the person that will be able to take him on and beat him was probably not riding in the series yet.

I think the same could be said about Marquez, apart from possibly Vinales but we won't know that until next season.
 
michaelm said:
I don't think the so-called "mind games" helped/help him competitively against Stoner and Lorenzo at all. But he imo succeeded/is succeeding in making their working lives less enjoyable/their success less appreciated, contributing to Stoner's early retirement and Jorge's Ducati move so soon after saying he wanted to be a Yamaha icon like the other 3 time Yamaha champions.

MM is a different matter, he seems very much of the don't get mad get even school, and with his talent and performances and the knowledge he has Repsol Honda behind him appears to have little or no susceptibility to dismay.
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Yeah Marquez don't give a .... about no one.

I think Lorenzo is smarter than most think. He likes been the bad guy cos he knows it gets under Rossis skin. I think Lorenzo is more pissed with Yamaha than off Rossi. If they made him the number one rider I think he might of stayed, but that will never happen whilst Rossi is there. It's a Yamaha having no balls thing.

Stoner certainly got under Rossis skin but I just think he got bored with the whole thing not just a silly 46
 
Richy56 said:
Put Marquez on any bike and he will win on it.
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All of the big 4 have dry track wins this year so its safe to say that he would win races on any of them, and would have won on the Ducati in any year like Stoner did. I have a gut feeling that Lorenzo is in for a depressing 2 years as it seems that they have peaked. Its a small sample size, but so far in the second half of the season, [outside the Austria track that is 3 drag strips connected by corners] on dry tracks, the Ducati has fallen back into its old m.o. of gambling on tires and finishing 15-20-30 seconds off the lead, Ianonne and Dovi being hurt hasnt helped, and like i said its a small sample, but there is a sudden lack of Ducati's competing for wins and podiums. This was predicted by some who thought as the season wore on and the big 2 figured out the electronics, Ducati's position would slide. With the new aero rules for next year, things could get ugly in the Ducati camp quick as Lorenzo seems the type that will let his emotions flow. Also as predicted, Honda has slowly but surely improved the Honda to where Rossi thinks it is now very close to the Yamaha after admitting that at the first of the year they were way behind. Motegi will be the test to see if Honda is close to being on par with the Yamaha.
 
I think it's insane to say Marquez isn't adaptable or wouldn't be great on a 500 he truely is a talent that we may not have seen before. I think most people would agree that it would be a surprise if he doesn't best all of Rossis premier class results. He went from 125cc to moto2 and started winning then repeated the same thing when he went from moto2 to MotoGP. He adapted to the Bridgestones from moto2 dunlops brilliantly, he has adapted to the Michelins the best this year.

As far as Lorenzo adapting to 500cc better and not sustaining injuries, isn't that forgetting his 2008 season where he crashed a lot?
 
Richy56 said:
Agree we will never know until he gets the chance.

Must not forget though that Marquez,s style was pretty radical when he came into MotoGP in 2013. Elbow down hanging right off the bike, everyone thought he was nuts but when he won the title, nearly all including Rossi started hanging off a lot more and elbows out down.

Up until the end of 2012, start of 2013, Rossis style has hardly ever changed. Burgess told him to change it to hang off more like stoner and Lorenzo in 2012, but got upset, sacked him and then changed his style ultimately to be more Marquez like. Burgess deserved that credit.

Rossi hasn't defined a style, Marquez did.
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Stoner had his elbow down before Marquez ever showed up.

35968d1282866725-cool-motogp-photo-stoner-elbow-grounded.jpg


IIRC, guys started prepping with the MX .... when they saw what Stoner was doing.
 
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p4p1 said:
I think it's insane to say Marquez isn't adaptable or wouldn't be great on a 500 he truely is a talent that we may not have seen before. I think most people would agree that it would be a surprise if he doesn't best all of Rossis premier class results. He went from 125cc to moto2 and started winning then repeated the same thing when he went from moto2 to MotoGP. He adapted to the Bridgestones from moto2 dunlops brilliantly, he has adapted to the Michelins the best this year.

As far as Lorenzo adapting to 500cc better and not sustaining injuries, isn't that forgetting his 2008 season where he crashed a lot?
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I'm not saying he can't or wouldn't adapt, but a lot of people forget that so much of his explosiveness is made possible by the electronics on the bike. A modern GP bike even in spite of the control ECU, is still heavily reliant on the programming. To go back into 1986, how he rides a bike currently would be impossible to do so in those days. He's said many times that he is at his best when he can ride a bike the way he does now. Take that away, it becomes an entirely different ballgame.
 
p4p1 said:
I think it's insane to say Marquez isn't adaptable or wouldn't be great on a 500 he truely is a talent that we may not have seen before. I think most people would agree that it would be a surprise if he doesn't best all of Rossis premier class results. He went from 125cc to moto2 and started winning then repeated the same thing when he went from moto2 to MotoGP. He adapted to the Bridgestones from moto2 dunlops brilliantly, he has adapted to the Michelins the best this year.

As far as Lorenzo adapting to 500cc better and not sustaining injuries, isn't that forgetting his 2008 season where he crashed a lot?
Click to expand...

I would not be surprised if he beat Rossi's records, but i wouldnt be surprised if he didnt. 3 titles in 4 years is the same record as Rossi and Rossi will have had more wins over that first 4 years. With the competition Marquez is facing, the numbers are no longer guaranteed. He could very well go on a run and win 4-5 more but that is going to be much harder than when Rossi did it, just like it was harder for Rossi than when Ago did it There are numbers in racing that will never be beat such as Richard Petty's 200 wins, but that doesnt mean he was better than Earhnhardt, Johnson, Gordon etc etc

Its still a toss up to me between Stoner and Marquez as the best GP rider i have ever seen.
 
JPSLotus said:
The thing going against MM is that he hasn't shown he can effectively adapt his style. Don't forget he was trying to do that before the season began to adjust for the new Michelin tires. He gave up on a new approach. Now, I can't argue that his A game riding style is working this year. But in the long run, adaptability is going to be something to look for with MM. Rossi is only competitive in 2016 because he has adapted his riding style numerous times over the years which is remarkable given how infrequently it happens among motorsport competitors. There's a long list of guys who found themselves out of their respective series due to being unable to adapt to the changes as the years went by. Based on his talent level, I do think MM should be able to adapt, but we're never really going to know until we see a formula change to GP...and I don't know when that will ever happen.
Click to expand...

He rode 125's like you had to ride them and dominated, went a completely different direction in Moto2 and dominated, adapted another style in GP with Bridgestones and has adapted his style again to win a title on the Michelin who's front tire does not allow him to do magic tricks like the Stones did. He is almost back to Moto2 style now, carrying huge corner speed instead of making it all up on the brakes like he did the first few years in GP
 
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