What do you think is/are the main reason(s) why Rossi is reluctant to ride for Ducati?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 1 2010, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ha you fruitcakes

Where do you think Rossi would have been without JB and crew?

When one watches Rossi ride one realises he's actually a pretty "so-so" rider, but then one wonders "how does he do it?".

When Rossi took JB he knew they can make "anything" win. For individual brands its just a matter of how much time it was going to take them to get it all together.

Yamaha wasn't far from Honda at all back in "the changeover" years. Hence why JB was right on top of it.

Rossi's main talent is in managing to get the best available, not his riding.
Barry bullshitter at his best .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Apr 1 2010, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>where was JB when he took his 125, and 250 titles?

9285arth_distubed.jpg]

Helping a few "other riders" getting REAL titles

though it seems a few still don't get that.

Rossi got a title in:
97
99
01
02
03
04
05
08
09.

Burgess
85
85
87
94
95
96
97
98
01
02
03
04
05
08
09


Bold is the REAL titles

JB owns MGP Wc's ...... bet Rossi never got two in one year either



Another way of thnking about it .....

Hypothetical question .....

Who would win more for Ducati?

1. Rossi if he went without JB?

or

2. JB got his wish and was hired by Duc. to work with Stoner?


I know what I'd pick.



Edit: a little while later. Were I to subscribe to conspiracy theories etc. etc. etc.

Is it possible that JB is the key reason Rossi would not go Ducati?

ie.
he would never go without him ...

so if he went with him ...... is there a chance that Stoner could end up with JB? And as we already know Rossi is not a fan of that happening whilst he is still in GP.

Is it all a wariness that it makes it morelikely that JB and Stoner could team up. In which case Rossi would be the new Criville.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 1 2010, 03:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who would win more for Ducati?

1. Rossi if he went without JB?

or

2. JB got his wish and was hired by Duc. to work with Stoner?
Any links to back this or this is one of your another wild fantasy dreams.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Apr 1 2010, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any links to back this or this is one of your another wild fantasy dreams.


Are you going for Talpa's job

There's one word in my post that makes you look stupid now ......... where's the shake head smiley again!!


Though I note that its in English, and you are from ...... let me check ....... UK .......oh thats why

Barry I still don't see how you can label Rossi a so-so rider the guy's a cheat but still the best rider there ever was imo.

And anyway it's the Biblical Bullshiter's (Talpa) job to be this one-eyed not yours!

so you're saying if JB was to work with JT....JT would be champion?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 1 2010, 04:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you going for Talpa's job

There's one word in my post that makes you look stupid now ......... where's the shake head smiley again!!


Though I note that its in English, and you are from ...... let me check ....... UK .......oh thats why
As i said before Barry that i can only hope that you make sense to yourself of your .........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Apr 1 2010, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so you're saying if JB was to work with JT....JT would be champion?

Toseland ?

well he's not there any more, but it does raise an interesting question .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Apr 1 2010, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry I still don't see how you can label Rossi a so-so rider

I'm talking actual riding technique, yes I do find him so-so. If you had to watch a rider "cut laps" Rossi is not at the exciting end of the scale.

Maybe that would be another good thing about seeing him on a Duc.? Maybe we would see if he can ride a "cantankerous" bike? Maybe the Big bang Duc. will not be "cantankerous?

Rossi would not ride it if it was ...... so who sets bikes up for him so they are not?

Its just a matter of how long JB would take to do it.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Rossi is not a winner, because one thing he does have ( well seems to have got back in 08 ) is a want to win. I don't think JB works with "maybe" riders, he can see riders who have "drive".

And though yes I don't think Rossi is one of the alltime technical riders he is most certainly the most driven I have ever seen. And thats probably the most important thing for winning WC's

I've made no secret of the fact I like watching a rider "ride", by which I guess I mean style/technique and speed ( you can interpret as YOU see it....... for yourself ) , so I wouldn't act so surprised. As I've said before, I find Rossi as boring as concrete to watch ride.

At present for example ( well excluding the last part of last year ) if I was to compare Stoner and Rossi ..... Stoner gets the vote for technicality of riding hands down, but Rossi gets the vote for drive ( no I will still include the last few rounds ). If Stoner is to get the WC again he has to maintain that drive.

Maintaining "drive" on a bike that is not ...... the best ...... is a very difficult thing. Part of why I used to say Capi helped Stoner get his title, ie, Stoner sees Capi going ok ..... well you have to get a bit of faith in your machine don't you? When Melandri started going crap, all the questions about the Duc. were being answered, the bar went lots lower, Stoner had less faith in the Duc. possibly?

I say it again, if Hayden goes good this year ....... it will help Stoner immensly

So if Rossi goes Ducati ...... technically he's stuffed, and ........ that would affect one of his greatest assets ...... drive. He isn't going to do that .... ever (it was hard enough for him to get it back in 08, especially when one considers his age ).


PS.
As a side note it may interest you to know .... I view Edwards as a very technically good rider. But he has never exhibited the "drive" he used to exhibit in those old races with Bayliss in SBK

Technically I think Spies is good, and I base that not on hs old style on a SBK but on how fast the guy changed that style ..... but he is a work in progress. Also its hard to see "drive" in him yet, I'll tell you after a few rounds.

Another end of the scale ...... RdP ....... occasionally shows the drive of a moon rocket, and I kinda like his style at times, but he is never consistent and he extremely rarely gets technique and drive working together, and never for a whole race....... so forget him ..... unless he changes.

So me liking "technical riders" finds Rossi ........ so-so.

Hell you say:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Apr 1 2010, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the guy's a cheat
which is, to me, just a symptom of the intensity of his "drive'
( And yes I know he gets preferential treatment on judgements about his riding, but is it him who's the cheat? or Dorna who reaps the benefits of emptying the Rossifans pockets )

Certainly the perennial team of GB and VR is more than the sum of their respective parts. Splitting them up would yield lower quality results. I can't figure why JB wants out of MotoGP but then I just don't get retirement as a concept. Someone mentioned VR's age as a limiting factor in his supposed move to Yamaha and I can't really see another reason to not go. Certainly Stoner would have a problem with it but his options are wide open.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Apr 1 2010, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so you're saying if JB was to work with JT....JT would be champion?

On the Kawasaki ???

I think confidence and self belief is a major factor in bike racing.
The guys who are successful are so confident in themselves they are almost arrogant, and have absolute self belief in their abilities.
When Toseland was in SBK and winning in 2007, he was on top of the world, and successful.
When he went to MotoGP he struggled and by about 3rd race in 2008, his confidence was shot, and he was no where. He kept falling off, he couldn't set the bike up, and his results were .....

I think JB is very good with his riders, psycologically. He keeps that level of self belief and confidence (which would be hard with Rossi ).
I remember Doohan saying that JB was his engineer and his coach, and I think that was about keeping Doohan in the midset that he could win.

Look at Rossi, no matter how bad the lead up is, or qualifying, he goes in to every race thinking he can win. I think Lorenzo has the same attitude.
I bet when Toseland came into GP, he did not go into races thinking he could win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Apr 1 2010, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think JB is very good with his riders, psycologically. He keeps that level of self belief and confidence (which would be hard with Rossi ).
I remember Doohan saying that JB was his engineer and his coach, and I think that was about keeping Doohan in the midset that he could win.

Very right,
One thing you pretty much can be sure of is that when he dies, there are going to be some very appreciative/very well known to him personally, ex-riders at his funeral. He does seem to be a major part of their lives ....... and its not just "spanner turning".

So Barry moron, who rode the bike, made the passes, kept up their physical conditioning, survived the crashes, returned to race with injurys and of course all of the other things that the rider does.......During all of those championships

I have the utmost respect for jb as most know, but your dribble is (and now I'm repeating) leaking profusly like diaherra through a g-string........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 31 2010, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Toseland ?

well he's not there any more, but it does raise an interesting question .

Mika Kallio then...use whatever name you like...

Youre saying if MK got JB he'd be the next champ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Apr 1 2010, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On the Kawasaki ???

Oh yes its so totally different from the Yam.

set of Ohlins shocks and the expertise in the team to understand them and adjust them, oh wait didn't the kwak haveOhlin's?

Marchesini wheels ...... well I do hope they will sell them some now they are on Kwak.

Magneti Mrelli gear. ..... ditto but they wil have to find a techo that can talk to the Mag. gear.

Tyres ......... Bridgestone ..... oh we have used those before!!

So whats the kwak engine? ........ how long would it take for JB to write up a tech. spec for the engine they want Kwak to start making?

Frame ditto.



I think it would surpirse us all just how good a kwak is, should they hire a JB And I think it would havebeen actually been perhaps the fastest for them to adapt to.


We had this discusion before some time ago ......... GP bikes are not like "showroom bikes" or bikes made in the thousands under a "model" name.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Apr 1 2010, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mika Kallio then...use whatever name you like...

Youre saying if MK got JB he'd be the next champ?



So whats the difference between Toseland or Kalio

which one is the "thing" ....... I think you are confused when I said JB could make anything win.

But you did raise an interesting point which I have answered above, in sorts.

No I don't believe JB can make just "any" rider win. ...... read above

As to which of Toseland or Kalio is more JB's choice I would not know.

But you know it wuld have been intereting to see had JB got Toseland prior to him even starting GP. Sadly I think it was an understanding of "how things are" and would turn out that took away Toselands "mojo" ...... hope he gets it back in SBK.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 1 2010, 06:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

So whats the difference between Toseland or Kalio

which one is the "thing" ....... I think you are confused when I said JB could make anything win.

But you did raise an interesting point which I have answered above, in sorts.

No I don't believe JB can make just "any" rider win. ...... read above

As to which of Toseland or Kalio is more JB's choice I would not know.

But you know it wuld have been intereting to see had JB got Toseland prior to him even starting GP. Sadly I think it was an understanding of "how things are" and would turn out that took away Toselands "mojo" ...... hope he gets it back in SBK.
Barry you destroy any credibility the pro-stoner axis may have on this forum, if you really are a member of it, by calling rossi a so-so rider, unless you are actually deliberately trolling in retribution for similar and to my mind similarly ridiculous rating of stoner by some as a rider. If you find stoner more spectacular to watch that's fine, I do also but motor racing was included by ernest hemingway amongst his very short list of true sports because you win by finishing first, with no points awarded in motogp for riding style as far as I am aware. Rossi has also been eventually the most successful on every different variety of bike he has ridden in gp racing, which now number 5 by my count in terms of class/engine type +/- manufacturer. Sure they may all have been the fastest bikes at the time also, but there does not appear to me to be anything else that he could have done other than be fastest/best on them.

JB is great, but his early success which still would not have occurred without the talent of the riders concerned meant by the time doohan and particularly rossi came around he was in a position to choose for whom he crewed, and he obviously chose well. If as is said, perhaps apocryphally, he did want yamaha to sign stoner this is indeed further proof of his eye for talent as stoner's championship winning capabilities were not obvious to all at the time. However jb has also consistently said that rossi is the best, so as others have said you are being fairly selective in your invocation of jb if you want to contend that rossi is a so-so rider. I of course am hoping as I presume are you that stoner will prove jb wrong in 2010 as he did in 2007, but I will begin to doubt my own judgement in believing stoner to be a fantastic rider if you think this but also believe rossi to be so-so .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 1 2010, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry you destroy any credibility the pro-stoner axis may have on this forum, if you really are a member of it, by calling rossi a so-so rider, unless you are actually deliberately trolling in retribution for similar and to my mind similarly ridiculous rating of stoner by some as a rider. If you find stoner more spectacular to watch that's fine, I do also but motor racing was included by ernest hemingway amongst his very short list of true sports because you win by finishing first, with no points awarded in motogp for riding style as far as I am aware. Rossi has also been eventually the most successful on every different variety of bike he has ridden in gp racing, which now number 5 by my count in terms of class/engine type +/- manufacturer. Sure they may all have been the fastest bikes at the time also, but there does not appear to me to be anything else that he could have done other than be fastest/best on them.

JB is great, but his early success which still would not have occurred without the talent of the riders concerned meant by the time doohan and particularly rossi came around he was in a position to choose for whom he crewed, and he obviously chose well. If as is said, perhaps apocryphally, he did want yamaha to sign stoner this is indeed further proof of his eye for talent as stoner's championship winning capabilities were not obvious to all at the time. However jb has also consistently said that rossi is the best, so as others have said you are being fairly selective in your invocation of jb if you want to contend that rossi is a so-so rider. I of course am hoping as I presume are you that stoner will prove jb wrong in 2010 as he did in 2007, but I will begin to doubt my own judgement in believing stoner to be a fantastic rider if you think this but also believe rossi to be so-so .

there's nothing apocryphal about Burgess's thoughts on Stoner:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km36...0/ai_n15702985/
its just that it was of "tiny import" back then, as well as the fact that it was "back then" and very likely the subject of a chat on an Aust. TV interview, which back then would not have left a huge footprint Add to that a propensity for firstly "disbelief" then "denial", by the "interested fans", of any personal accolade directed at Stoner by a credible member of the MGP fraternity .


Michael I fully understand what you are saying about Rossi, its just that I have never seen, in his style/technique of riding, anything that puts him so far in front of most others in GP. I know what you say, but I find him somewhat so-so to watch.
Years haven't changed this, indeed his early years in MGP saw me swing preference toward the Edwards/Bayliss antics in SBK. there was just riding skills there, just damn good riding.
I would see MGP and see Rossi and Biaggi having a cat fight in the stair well .... I thought well "meh I'd rather see the ride not the bitching". I know some folk here think thats fun but for me it was not what I liked in MGP.

People say Rossi likes to battle thats why we never see him run huge margins like Stoner. But I see it a different way nowadays, I see that as merely confirmation of his great "drive" to win being paramount and why I don't think his riding style and technique stand out.

Rossi has his "drive" to win. And winning by a smaller but safer margin is still winning. But it does show a definite wariness on his own technical abilities as a rider. If his limits was his focus, and had more faith in them, he would throw more caution to the wind and take off.

Stoner being a technical skills rider has himself, and his limit mainly as the oponent and hence focus. I believe Duc, Stoner have fathomed this about Rossi too, as many of Stoners latter wins were not so run away, and indeed he would even seem to be playing with the guy in second up until the last few laps when he would pull away. eg. PI 09. And I believe Rossi knows this about Stoner too, and we saw rounds like Laguna 08 where Rossi used his drive to its ultimate to stop what he knew was going to be perhaps the most technical ride MGP ever saw, but we also saw Stoner decide to then get out and hold a safe margin quite well thereafter. As it is we now only have rides like Laguna 07 and PI 09 ( though I think Stoner was playing it safe ) of late Part of Stoners ability is the effort it is taking to control the Ducati ....... thats the very technical bit to watch, Rossi never has that trouble ..... ever, this is where JB comes in, but unfortunately I think the Yam is so "safe" a ride that I see Rossi as so-so.

You can tell me all you like what I should be liking in riders but the fact is I will always have this thing about seeing a great ride. Usually to me these are seen on those "runaway wins" and rarely in what folk term as "battles".

Barry, what you like to watch is your free choice, but mind that what you like or dislike may have little to do with the actual value or skill of riders, for which there are objective parameters that cannot be so blatantly ignored or denied.
If you keep mixing the subjective and the objective, there is not much room left for debate.
Happy April Fool's Day anyway!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 2 2010, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry, what you like to watch is your free choice, but mind that what you like or dislike may have little to do with the actual value or skill of riders, for which there are objective parameters that cannot be so blatantly ignored or denied.
If you keep mixing the subjective and the objective, there is not much room left for debate.

As is everybodies ..... but before you judge too harshly remember whether its subjective or objective ..... wins between Rossi and Stoner, since both are on premier machines of their Marques, is still neck and neck. So in that respect ...... who's to say which has more value and which is subjective and which objective

One things for sure, I know I'm in the minority ...... but meh, in the past its proved to be a succesful place to be on here