What do you think is/are the main reason(s) why Rossi is reluctant to ride for Ducati?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Mar 28 2010, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Almost a page full of mostly ........

Look at all the contributors to the first page. Coincidence? I think not.

Why will Rossi stay where he is? Simple, he's no more 24 years old. He is planning to race for just another three years, with an intention to win as much as possible and break more records, so it would be stupid to spend at least one of those last three years adapting a new bike to his liking -- especially if that bike is a Ducati or a Honda, companies where it is the engineers who rule over the riders (even if, in the case of Ducati, Stoner has changed that attitude to an extent).

The rider has always been most important in motorcycle racing. Suggesting that it is only JB who has made the Yamaha what it is, ignoring the importance of the skill and perception of the rider who must be capable to take the package to the limit and then tell precisely the engineers how the bike is and how it must be -- well, that's something amusing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Mar 29 2010, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I respectfully disagree. I think the rider makes a much bigger difference nowadays, as the differences have become smaller. There's plenty of evidence from the past few years:

Stoner vs Melandri
Edwards vs Toseland
Pedrosa vs Everyone else on a Honda

The development of the bikes and the electronics have certainly closed the gaps between the different bikes, but this has merely made the rider a BIGGER part of the equation. This is exactly where Honda have gone so disastrously wrong over the past 5 years or so.

The RC211V was a missile, by a very long chalk the best bike on the grid, with everyone able to ride it and a lot of people capable of winning on it. Once Rossi went to Yamaha, Honda stopped winning, and have never recovered, as they've focused on the bike and not the riders.

Why have Yamaha become the dominant factory? Certainly, the M1 is the best bike on the grid (thanks to Rossi, JB, Lorenzo, Edwards, even Toseland), but look at who is riding the bike: two of the best three racers in the world, three of the best five racers in the world, four of the best seven or eight racers in the world. Yamaha dominates because they understand that people are the biggest part of the equation. The rider is still at least 70%, probably nearer 80% of the equation.

And let's not get all misty-eyed about the past. If there is one rule of thumb about the past, it is nearly always that it was worse than the present, in every single aspect.

The 90s: Once Rainey was gone and Schwantz lost interest, Doohan owned the 90s. Doohan was definitely the biggest part of that, but behind Doohan, there was nobody, and only the factory Honda was capable of competing. Without a factory NSR, you were nowhere.

The late 70s/early 80s were the same, only then it was about having a factory Yamaha. As for the 60s and the MV Agusta era, all you had to do was turn up - and beat your teammate - to win.

GP machinery has never been as equal as it is today. As a consequence, the rider is a much, much bigger part of the equation.
I had a big response ready to go arguing that comparing Melandri and Edwards' results from earlier in their careers to now would show two riders on similar equipment while Melandri getting the better results early on and Edwards getting the upper hand since Yamaha's domination. However, that idea was thwarted when I remembered Edwards had a dismal 2007 and Melandri has been making awful choices since then. I don't have much to rebut with at this point. But I will say that I believe Melandri is better than his results indicate. Or perhaps the RC211V made him look a lot better than he was and his stints with Yamaha, Ducati, Kawasaki and his present form on the RC212V are the more accurate gauges.

I still think 80/20 is a little flattering to the rider. Just an opinion, no facts.

I think it's because it took him a few years to get everything in place and get a winning concept at Yamaha.And he doesn't want,or doubts that he will have the stamina to do it all over again.

In other words,he is happy where he is.
I don't think there would be a problem of getting his will at Ducati.They would do ANYTHING to keep the investment of the century.

This has been exhaustively debated on here already so apologies if this has already been mentioned on this thread. Vale perceives that Ducati employ a similar ethos to HRC in which the machine is the all important factor over the rider. I also think that he'd be reluctant to fulfill the excessive P/R which comes with the seat.

Where Valentino has acknowledged that he would love to win a title on an Italian bike, he has also said that he'd like to become synonymous with Yamaha - in much the same way as KRsnr and Rainey have, and he has always regarded Yamaha racing motorcycles as 'beautiful'. He simply wants to be forever associated with the marque.

I think we always will remember Rossi as a Yamaha rider as opposed to other factories such as Aprilia or Honda, and if he were to go there, Ducati. It's a bit like Gary Lineker - it's where your personal affinities lie. No one thinks of Lineker as a Barcelona player, and where Everton and Spurs fans try as they like to claim him as their own, he will always be a Leicester player because that's where he chooses to identify himself with, even though his best years as a player were probably abroad or at Tottenham. Not only does Rossi choose to be remembered for Yam, but in addition to this it will always now (I believe) represent his greatest years as a rider.

I think he should go to Suzuki for the challenge

There are more reasons for Rossi to stay at yamaha , than to leave.
Winning bike, settled crew,a company that doesn,t place excessive promotional demands on him.

The Rossi-Ducati hook up is an italian dream, but is exceedingly unlikely. Rossi is unhappy enough competing against Lorenzo on the same equipment: does anybody possibly believe that he would consider being at Ducati with Stoner?? Impossible. Would Ducati sign Rossi , on the proviso they sack Stoner? I think not, especially if Stoner is on the way towards another title. Plus the ducati has had the reputation of being a pig of a bike to ride. Would Rossi risk diminishing his amazing winning record by spending his final years on a bike that risks keeping him off the podium? Of course not.............but , the new big bang engine is allowing Hayden to finish top 5, so perhaps Rossi can win on it. It certainly appears more likely.

As others have stated, the probable only "alien " moves are Lorenzo to Honda, and Pedrosa to pergatory. This means obviously, yamaha retain Rossi and Ducati retain Stoner.

BUT, it may all change on one proviso and one only........Stoner succumbs to Hondas treasure chest and dreams of fulfilling Wayne Gardners dream of Stoner becoming the next Doohan at Honda. From this first move, all will follow- there is now a big vacancy at Ducati with no competitive team mates (no other aliens) and a big pay packet and the possibility of fulfilling the Italian Dream. Lorenzo stays at Yamaha with a modest salary, because his Honda option is closed and he knows Yamaha is his best future option. Yamaha know Lorenzo offers them more for the future than Rossi and offer Rossi a reduced salary. Rossi is miffed that yamaha will not offer him more (because they know Rossi wants to stay at yamaha and that they are confident a Yamaha-shod Lorenzo can beat Rossi on a Ducati) so he leaves Yamaha for Ducati, because-

1) he wants to prove once again that HE is the reason for winning
2) Ducati offer him double what yamaha will
3)the big bang Ducati should be competitive and its worth the risk
4)fulfill the dream of an Italian world champion on an Italian bike
5)winning on 3 different brands will definately elevate himself above all others before-(Lawson, Agostino)- he will without question be the greatest of all time.

How could Rossi resist such glorification?


But it wont happen , unless Stoner is signed by Honda first.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Mar 28 2010, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it's due to him not wanting the pressure of being the preeminent Italian rider riding the premiere Italian bike. I have no doubt he would be competitive on a Ducati and would be the same championship caliber rider he is now/has been.
Don't kid yourself.


He'd have a better chance wining a title on a Kawasaki or a Suzuki. Very simple, the Ducati is a very difficult machine to ride. There is no way he would do it. (Unless, after much development, Hayden became competitive, and seeing its refinements capable of winning, even then, it wouldn't happen). Prototype racing people. Rossi would have zero MotoGP titles had his career been spent on a Suzuki, or a Kawasaki! Only a lame brain would count his titles and think he's that much better than everybody else. Put him on the same .... as another excellent rider, and you have what we saw last year, duals. Hence him trying to boot Lorenzo out of Yamaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Mar 30 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Equipment matters, I didn't say it didn't. But I find it just as presumptuous to automatically discount him as fail material if he ever got on a Ducati. How do you judge excellence then? You just don't happen on that many World titles and wins by accident without something special about you. Yes, he has a great relationship with JB, yes he has the best bike on the grid, but does that automatically guarantee him wins? No, he has to get on that bike and make it happen. What has Lorenzo proven so far? He's on the cusp, no doubt about it, but has he put it together for a full season yet? No.
Jum has a massive chip on his shoulder. Mysteriously shaped like the number 46......

Rossi piss of lorenzo coz lorenzo use rossi data all the time
lorenzo cheat /that why Rossi say yamaha has choose Rossi or Lorenzo
look who is being busy when yamaha has a new rules when data cannot share (lorenzo & his crew)
so we will see what happen, I don't think Rossi will move to Duc

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 30 2010, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't kid yourself.


He'd have a better chance wining a title on a Kawasaki or a Suzuki. Very simple, the Ducati is a very difficult machine to ride. There is no way he would do it.

It wouldn't just so happen that you uttered those exact same words in 03 except changing Ducati for Yamaha? Well, nobody expected that move so there were none to few speculations but remember what the experts said after the announcement. The said effectively the same thing: That Yamaha were unrideable. My point is that unridable or difficult bikes don't scare Rossi as much as you assume. There are lot's of other factors that talk against such a move but a difficult machine to ride is not one of the major ones.


I doubt he will move but don't rule it out entirely.
IF, if if....:
A bad season start for Stoner with continued incidents throwing fuel on the stoner hater fire,
a fantastic start for Rossi despite development decisions being made to favor Lornezo,
a deeper desire in the top of Ducati and sponsors to have Rossi on the team.
With all this in place we could just maybe see a scenario where Stoner leave Ducati and Rossi/JB are given free hands to do what they want.
Not very likely but I think it's within possibility.

Now it's just to wait for K to shoot my theory to pieces

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 30 2010, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bad season start for Stoner with continued incidents throwing fuel on the stoner hater fire,

Ok I will bother with just this one of your wacky fantasies.

At present Stoner seems to be at an all time high with the "important" parties involved in MGP.

I think you have a funny idea of just who is hating Stoner ....... Its the Boppers. This, in contrast to what you seem to be suffering under the delusion of, is of very little consequence. The people that "matter" seem to be very pro Stoner ATM.

I'm taliking

rider's ..... not one rider has a bad thing to say about Stoner. Infact many defend him when a media story pandering to the Boppers surfaces. Even Rossi himself has done this.

Ducati ...... name one person in Ducati that doesn't think the sun shines ut of Stoner's A#@%.

The paddock ...... plenty of Stoner respect there ... Haven't heard other than praise from them.

Media ..... even the media doesn't carry on like the Boppers.



I don't know what you are on about but it almost seems to be a strange belief that you guys are somehow mysteriously affecting Stoner and his employ, with the petty kiddy crap .
Whereas in the past when some fairytale, of supposed negativity about Stoner surfaced, there was always a rallying of many of the above to discount these fairytales, eg. Many riders. mechanics etc. etc. etc. put there point quite succinctly to put down the illogical stupidity that was going around about Stoner and "TC" and "Electronics"
Stoners 09 abscence .....Ducati seemed pretty happy to have him back

You are affecting someone .... but its not Stoner, in fact he's pretty much shot down in flames all the delusions that the Boppers have attempted to concoct. The one who really suffers is Rossi, ie. if thats the "quality" of fans he attracts .......

Its all very " a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush", but given the Ducati has only proved good in the hands of one man, Rossi must look a lot like one of the "two in the bush".

And unlike many other riders, Rossi has to worry about his fans reactions when things didn't "work out" at Ducati. It could be good for Ducati, or could be the death of them, given they are such a small concern and given the past history with any rider other than Stoner ..... I know which looks riskier Suicide I'd say.

I'd think Rossi could be the worst nightmare Ducati could imagine. Just how would the market react if he went like Melandri? or even just better than Hayden? Its all a bad situation for Ducati, and hence why the reactions of the Ducati staff, on Rossi going to them, are allways somewhat muted and polite

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cygnus88 @ Mar 29 2010, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi piss of lorenzo coz lorenzo use rossi data all the time
lorenzo cheat /that why Rossi say yamaha has choose Rossi or Lorenzo
look who is being busy when yamaha has a new rules when data cannot share (lorenzo & his crew)
so we will see what happen, I don't think Rossi will move to Duc
1. Rossi also used Lorenzo's data in 2009, it went both ways. 2. Kindly explain how Lorenzo cheats? A lot of people have said Rossi is a cheat. I'm not fond of that word for Rossi, but there have been some sketchy actions from him in the past. I'm not familiar with Lorenzo holding his team and the series hostage to get equipment. But I do recall that happening with Valentino. 3. Every rider is busy to get all the data they can. This is winter testing, that's the point of the sessions. If you think Rossi is simply cruising around and taking it easy, you're delusional. And if you want to have a go at Lorenzo's times, he's also got a broken hand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Mar 28 2010, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Um comparing Melandri and Rossi? Are they even in the same league?

Melandri was 2nd in the championship already. didnt u see what he did with the hayate???

Youre quite wrong!

I dont believe rossi would move to duc. the reasons were already mentioned:

"...not want to end his career back of field..."

maybe he could develop the duc into his direction, but with yamaha hes on the safe side. why leave? even if jorge stays. see the testtimes? rossi in the lead exc. last session...

it works...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 30 2010, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It wouldn't just so happen that you uttered those exact same words in 03 except changing Ducati for Yamaha?
I know you & Talpa, ltd. have difficulty reading any post not elevating Rossi to god status, but at very least your reply gives us something to talk about. I think we have already gone over the magnitude (which upon inspection, is not much) of the switch from Honda to Yamaha. Though you or whoever may not want to accept it, that switch was NOT as earth shattering as the folklore you guys have tried to turn it into. I’ve shown several times that Yamaha & Honda have been close rivals sharing the titles and coming runner up to eachother with very few exception. It remains true today, Honda are behind Yamaha at the moment, but nobody in their right mind would say that a switch from Yamaha to Honda would be an earth shattering move of equipment, right? Pedrosa has had good success on it, and if the thing were redesigned for Rossi, he would undoubtedly be a contender as usual.

Again, I realize anything, whether it be fact or fiction, must be spun to cast a favorable light for Rossi in order for the Boppers to be happy (judging from eltoro and talpa’s defensive responses), but Ducati remains an enigma of a machine that has proven most difficult to ride. Most Rossi fans living in an alternate reality are still stuck on pointing to Stoner’s Ducati and giving the ‘machine’ accolade while the rest of similar bikes linger. All the while telling us how Stoner sucks, is weak, is fragile, (not you) or chalking it up to electronics (you) etc. You want an example of pointing to a package and estimate that it’s superior? Point to Yamaha (factory or satellites).

There is no doubt Rossi would have some success on the Ducati. But a championship requires more than just some success, but a confluence of success, luck, misfortune, and breaks. The Boppers have summarily explained the lapse in Rossi’s string of titles by pointing to luck and misfortune, as well as tires, and power discrepancy to make sense of not winning a championship those years. There is an element of truth to their claim though their oversimplified explanation has always been easily debunked; yet the lesson to be learned is: much needs to go ones way to nap a title. It was still true in the last two titles for Rossi, where Lorenzo crashed out while leading and Stoner’s untimely illness, elements equally substantial to place the astrid that the Boppers wanted to affix for 06/07 ring true for 08/09.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Mar 29 2010, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I respectfully disagree. I think the rider makes a much bigger difference nowadays, as the differences have become smaller. There's plenty of evidence from the past few years:

Stoner vs Melandri
Edwards vs Toseland
Pedrosa vs Everyone else on a Honda

The development of the bikes and the electronics have certainly closed the gaps between the different bikes, but this has merely made the rider a BIGGER part of the equation. This is exactly where Honda have gone so disastrously wrong over the past 5 years or so.

I see more shades of this than a constant percentage.
Do the same percentage apply to Rossi and Melandri, or Yamaha and Ducati?

I don't think so. The potential of each bike and the potential of each rider are important factors of the equation. How can you rate Melandri and Ducati at 80/20 and Melandri/Kawazaki the same 80/20? Based on how bad the rider were on the Ducati the Hayate Kawa must have been nothing less but championship material. But it wasn't so there are more then a simple 80/20 that is true everywhere.

I agree that the bike matrial are more equal but unsure if the rider influence has really increased.
Not only have the bikes become more equal but they are also so much better and so much more "friendly". That leaves less room for the riders when they are all among the best in the world.
I mean, if the ride were really really easy all riders would take the bike to the absolute max and they would spread out according to the bike performance, no more no less. For sure we are not there but the steps taken with the 800s, the electronics and the single tire all go in that direction. Thats the huge difference from the strokers era or even the 990s. None of the riders could go flat out for full race using the bikes potential fully, a few could do it for some laps and thats where the difference showed between the riders. They had to handle a wider aspect of talents and abilities and they had to handle more variations in their ride, going from race to race but even under a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 30 2010, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know you & Talpa, ltd. have difficulty reading any post not elevating Rossi to god status, but at very least your reply gives us something to talk about. I think we have already gone over the magnitude (which upon inspection, is not much) of the switch from Honda to Yamaha. Though you or whoever may not want to accept it, that switch was NOT as earth shattering as the folklore you guys have tried to turn it into. I’ve shown several times that Yamaha & Honda have been close rivals sharing the titles and coming runner up to eachother with very few exception. It remains true today, Honda are behind Yamaha at the moment, but nobody in their right mind would say that a switch from Yamaha to Honda would be an earth shattering move of equipment, right? Pedrosa has had good success on it, and if the thing were redesigned for Rossi, he would undoubtedly be a contender as usual.

Again, I realize anything, whether it be fact or fiction, must be spun to cast a favorable light for Rossi in order for the Boppers to be happy (judging from eltoro and talpa’s defensive responses), but Ducati remains an enigma of a machine that has proven most difficult to ride.

It's mostly fun to argue with you around Rossi and Stoner. At least your havn't popped ALL the fuses like BM. But this is boring. Boring repetition and boring arguments.
You know as well as I do that the historical numbers says little to nothing about whats competitive today. If it really did MV agusta should still be a very hot ride and Ducati should be in the back. That fits just as well as your suggestion that Yamaha was a top ride becuase it was hot in the '80s.
Your spinn around Rossi being so clever to pick a very competitive bike when going to Yamaha is just one of those unique Jumkie inventions. Other experts tried to analyze what happened after the first championship and pointed out how the previous riders probably got lost in the highly adjustable chassis. Show me one article saying what you say today: "Not a big step" that was written before the first race of '04 and we can go from there. 5 min of googling only gave me some soup articles with Roberts Sr and Dean Adams both saluting Rossi for his choice and his balls. Never seen Dean star struck like that before and he's not exactly Euro and Rossi friendly in his other writings. I'm sure you were better informed and knew how small that step were all the time.
But for the rest of the world it holds true that he showed some big balls going to Yamaha and it more or less proves that Rossi shouldn't get scared mindless by a difficult bike.

I think he is hesitating to go there because he wont be that long in motogp to use his invested time in developing and learning to ride the bike. But it's not impossible to see him there.

the things that riders/drivers say about their present teams, are just pr talks, and if times come to leave that team they will do it no matter what and which team.(we saw that also in Schumacher and ferrari)

But about his performance, i,m SURE that he can win gp's on a suzuki or any other bikes. we saw that everybody said he was only winning because of Honda, but how many people were riding Honda, and how many gp's did they win?

in 2004, Honda did their best and hired all the BEST rider's of that time in their team, but could they win the championship or more gp's than him? NO.

like before that many said Honda was the reason for Rossi's success, now Some people say JB is the ONLY reason for his success, but did JB make a perfect Yamaha for the first race of the season in south africa, when Rossi won that race only on his own skills and not for the superiority of his bike.

So i,m sure if he goes to Ducati and win a few championships back to back even without JB in his team, those LOSERS will find something else to come with and say he only wins because of this and that.

or we have to believe that Rossi were a big or the biggest reason behind his wins, or we have to believe that, Biagi, gibernau, Baros, Tamada, Hayden,... were born losers and were not worth of riding that Honda, since none of them, won as much as Rossi did with that bike. now if someone want to say that they didn't ride it as long as Rossi,

then i,ll remind him that Hayden was surely long enough in that team to show his true pace, yet he won only TWO gp's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 30 2010, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok I will bother with just this one of your wacky fantasies.

At present Stoner seems to be at an all time high with the "important" parties involved in MGP.

It's not a fantasy BM, it's not something I wish for and I'm sure you don't notice but you won't find many hard words against Stoner and his health or interviews from me. I respect the guy even if you don't believe that for a second. This was a less than likely scenario where one of the factors were a less than sympathetic Stoner getting the public against him. I'm sure he is as popular as ever among the people you listed. But none of those where mentioned by me and none matter much except Ducati. Malboro were not pleased with what has happened last year and they matter, a lot. And the public does matter. It doesn't matter if they are boopers or MotoGP fans if they as a mass build up massive negative reception of stoner. It's not there but it could happen in a less than likely scenario.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 30 2010, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's mostly fun to argue with you around Rossi and Stoner.
Its mostly fun for me too, but not so when you veer off into an alternate universe my friend.

Ah Babe, going back to the stone age of motorcycle to make your point was a rather ridiculous attempt, go back about 25-30 years. The only interruptions between Yamaha vs Honda were a couple of extraordinary seasons by Suzuki. Anyway being you're such an avid follower of the sport, surely you know the difference between hype vs. reality. Let me give you some examples, surely you remember the hype surrounding Melandri to Ducati and Hopkins to Kawasaki in 08, right? Since so many thought it was the Ducati that handed Stoner the title, well with a ‘legitimate’ rider having scored a runner up in the championship like Melandri on the seat, many touted it would easily be Marco’s year or close to it. What was the reality? Same with Hopkins, many 2008 season reviews started with the lead story that Hopkins’ switch to an effort that was much improved would be a front runner and thought he would do better than his great 4th standing; since many felt he was being held back by equipment. (Especially after Team Green had leaned up the Harald Eckle problem, and the infusion of money to the program, in addition to Bartholemy making a solid case that Kawasaki could challenge for the 09 title.) What was the reality? Conversely, many thought Rossi’s switch to Yamaha was a major downgrade in equipment, yet he was able to win straight away. You may be tempted to say, well you see, that’s because Rossi is that good. Well with that same logic, at the time, were the above-mentioned riders that bad? I agree they are not Rossi caliber, but to go from top 5 to bottom dwellers, where the only difference was the bike they rode, is a stretch in logic to then assign that same reality to Rossi’s switch from the all conquering Honda to Yamaha, win straight away, then commence in trying to say Yamaha was pile of ..... Reality vs hype my friend.

Also, previously in this thread was the discussion regarding the percentage of rider vs gear. Ask any avid follower of Rossi’s career and ask why he didn’t nap the 07 title. Most will tell you firstly, “It was poor ...... Michelins”. That answer should tell you all you need to know about package and Rossi’s ability to overcome the discrepancy. Yes, he’s better than most at compensating, but that has its limits. So if you believe this school of thought, then it’s even more difficult to make the case that the rider is less subject to his equipment. Conversely, if this is true, then that should shed some light about the other competitors that did not have equal or superior tires to Rossi the years he enjoyed ‘Saturday night specials’.