What do you think is/are the main reason(s) why Rossi is reluctant to ride for Ducati?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Mar 29 2010, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Still counting posts mickm?? I believe we have proof here of my point in the other thread......and yet another Barry Crocker
I did count the number of participants in the other thread not multiple posts by the same participants, and no-one is calling rossi a ..... or otherwise questioning his character/directing personal abuse at him as yet. It is also probably legitimate to raise stoner in a thread concerning whether rossi might go to the team stoner currently rides for.

I wouldn't disagree that it is ridiculous to ascribe rossi's success to jb, and I consider it very unlikely that rossi would be unable to adapt his riding style to ride the ducati fast, and even more so that he would be unable to develop it into something suited to him (given sufficient resources by ducati/marlboro) particularly since he has achieved championship-winning pace on every bike he has ridden so far (at least 6 different bikes even just in terms of capacity and manufacturers).

I still don't necessarily think he would have been as fast or faster than stoner on the 2007 ducati though .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 29 2010, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I did count the number of particpants in the other thread not multiple posts by the same participants, and no-one is calling rossi a ..... or otherwise questioning his character/directing personal abuse at him as yet. It is also probably legitimate to raise stoner in a thread concerning whether rossi might go to the team stoner currently rides for.

I dare say that claiming someone else was entirely responsible for rossi's success would be considered insulting. Much more so And much more ridiculous than being called a '.....'

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Mar 29 2010, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Still counting posts mickm?? I believe we have proof here of my point in the other thread......and yet another Barry Crocker

count this one Talpa...you're a moron! and a chimp

That said I think rossi would do just as well on the duc even though the yam is a better all round package - the problem I see would be $$$$$ to get rossi (and JB) and I don't just mean salaries which would be enormous, but setting up a whole new ducati team as they would want to develop their own bike just as they have always done.

Ducati have made some errors in the past (like booting Bayliss) but i'm not sure they would cann stoner for rossi - I realise marlborough wouldn't hesitate for 1 second though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Mar 29 2010, 03:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I dare say that claiming someone else was entirely responsible for rossi's success would be considered insulting. Much more so And much more ridiculous than being called a '.....'
Take it up with barry then, since I don't discredit rossi whilst you constantly do stoner. You obviously can and do say what you like about stoner, which is why I find it curious that you respond with seeming outrage when someone has a shot back about rossi after many attacks on stoner as in the other thread. I actually quite enjoy arguing with you, my point is that calling people lower primates does not add any weight to your arguments; god knows valentino has given you more than sufficient ammunition to use.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 28 2010, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>80% rider 20% bike
Naive, Curvey. You're better than that. To be complimentary to the rider, I'd say 70 percent rider, 30 percent bike. But I fear that the balance may be somewhere closer to 60 percent rider, 40 percent bike. With the advancement of electronics, the old 80/20 rule of the 500 and early 990 days is long gone. Lap times are far too dependent on electronic aids to say that the bike is only 20 percent of the equation. Electronics alone might make up 20 percent of the equation. Sad day, really.

And the reason Rossi won't go to Ducati? Too big of an undertaking. When Rossi hangs up his leathers, be it next year or five years from now, that's the end for JB as well. That's quite a bit of work only to reap the benefits for a few years. They've already built one empire together and I think JB intends to see out his career there. And Rossi won't leave without him. Not that he couldn't transform the Ducati to his liking without Burgess, but it would be a lot more difficult.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Mar 29 2010, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I dare say that claiming someone else was entirely responsible for rossi's success would be considered insulting. Much more so And much more ridiculous than being called a '.....'

Why I never said "someone else"!!

I said it is JB!!

Was JB his crew chief his first season in the top class?
I think that he was. It says a lot that Doohan retires and his crew goes to 250cc champion and not to the other Repsol Riders..

Rossi has been the chosen one for a very long time. I have no doubt that his talent is of the very elite. But we all know talent alone doesn't make a champion, much less a 9 time world champion.

JB/Rossi/Crew and an open factory team to build what they need= a formidable team for the ages..
Cheers to Team Rossi.

I am not a Rossi bopper or a Stoner Bopper. I'm just stating the truth as I see it.

Rossi/JB/Crew is the best combination in Grand Prix Racing. Even the years they didn't win the championship they were always the most formidable team.

Now: who is holding the trophy this year?
1.Stoner
2.Rossi
3.Lorenzo

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Duc999 @ Mar 29 2010, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Was JB his crew chief his first season in the top class?
I think that he was. It says a lot that Doohan retires and his crew goes to 250cc champion and not to the other Repsol Riders..

Rossi has been the chosen one for a very long time. I have no doubt that his talent is of the very elite. But we all know talent alone doesn't make a champion, much less a 9 time world champion.

JB/Rossi/Crew and an open factory team to build what they need= a formidable team for the ages..
Cheers to Team Rossi.

I am not a Rossi bopper or a Stoner Bopper. I'm just stating the truth as I see it.

Rossi/JB/Crew is the best combination in Grand Prix Racing. Even the years they didn't win the championship they were always the most formidable team.

Now: who is holding the trophy this year?
1.Stoner
2.Rossi
3.Lorenzo
It could also be argued that included in jb's considerable expertise is very good judgement in choosing which riders he crews for.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Duc999 @ Mar 29 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Was JB his crew chief his first season in the top class?

Yes, in fact Rossi said the only way he would go to Honda was if he got Burgess

JB has stated that if Rossi moves to another team, he will likely give up the game.
Rossi will not risk that going to a new team without JB - even though most of Rossi's team are now the brains trust, after learning how to get rabbits out of their ..... from JB.

It was actually Burgess that made the famous 80/20% quote, however, that was in 2004 in response to Honda saying that their GP bikes were so good that even an average rider could win on their bikes.
I don't think that is the case anymore and I think JB and Rossi would agree the bikes now play a larger role.
Compare a factory M1 of last year to the Suzuki of last year.
It would take more than a good rider to get that bike to the front.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 29 2010, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, in fact Rossi said the only way he would go to Honda was if he got Burgess
What was he going to do otherwise ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 29 2010, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It could also be argued that included in jb's considerable expertise is very good judgement in choosing which riders he crews for.

You got that right.
He's got a fantastic career but just like Rossi, it's not all about talent and expertise in their separate jobs, it's also about making the right choices.
And despite what BM says JB says he will retire when Rossi retire. A testament to their working relationship me thinks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 29 2010, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Take it up with barry then, since I don't discredit rossi whilst you constantly do stoner. You obviously can and do say what you like about stoner, which is why I find it curious that you respond with seeming outrage when someone has a shot back about rossi after many attacks on stoner as in the other thread. I actually quite enjoy arguing with you, my point is that calling people lower primates does not add any weight to your arguments; god knows valentino has given you more than sufficient ammunition to use.

I believe the original argument was about how many members discredit stoner in particular threads. I merely pointed out that when the shoe is on the other foot, rossi cops just as much.

You love to defend cs and point out the amount of .... slung at him, which I don't disagree with. Cs is however certainly not alone in the critics corner.

I have spent many a post pointing out rossi's achievements in his defence, this particular tactic is saved for the members who provide intellect and offer a reasonable argument. These debates unfortunately do not exist at present in the current crop of ...... threads- off season dribble
bring on Qatar!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 29 2010, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, in fact Rossi said the only way he would go to Honda was if he got Burgess

After Doohan's retirement didn't JB say that he actually came out again because he wanted to work with Rossi

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (surendhar @ Mar 29 2010, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>After Doohan's retirement didn't JB say that he actually came out again because he wanted to work with Rossi

Not sure Rossi had that much "aura" back then if you remember. There was riders with much more credit already in 500's back then. In a way I wonder if Rossi was hired as part of Hondas, then contemporary, view that anybody could win on their bikes. Such was the years of dominance they had had with Doohan, Criville etc. And it was probably why it became important to Rossi to go to Yamaha, whether to prove his cred. to himself or others, the often held belief back then was ....... Honda had it wrapped up. Matter of fact Burgess's comment on the 80/20 thing was made during the years of that Honda ideology.
He was back then no more than one would view say Simoncelli, or Bautista, etc. One would then think a moderately tempting amount of money would have been flashed around. As well as the fact that Doohan was then in Hondas employ and would have had some personal sway with JB. JB had not actually retired either. He was though thinking about it after Doohans retirement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Mar 29 2010, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was actually Burgess that made the famous 80/20% quote, however, that was in 2004 in response to Honda saying that their GP bikes were so good that even an average rider could win on their bikes.
I don't think that is the case anymore and I think JB and Rossi would agree the bikes now play a larger role.

Too true, which may explain explain why so many are citing Stoner as the fastest, most talented etc etc etc. The Burgess created Yamaha/Rossi Combo is probably more like 50/50 whereas it has become increasingly obvious that Stoner contributes say 90>95% and the rest Ducati. Though Tardossi's comments when he left Duc. could be interpreted to mean the Ducati is actually a negative contribution

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 29 2010, 05:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Naive, Curvey. You're better than that. To be complimentary to the rider, I'd say 70 percent rider, 30 percent bike. But I fear that the balance may be somewhere closer to 60 percent rider, 40 percent bike. With the advancement of electronics, the old 80/20 rule of the 500 and early 990 days is long gone. Lap times are far too dependent on electronic aids to say that the bike is only 20 percent of the equation. Electronics alone might make up 20 percent of the equation. Sad day, really.

I respectfully disagree. I think the rider makes a much bigger difference nowadays, as the differences have become smaller. There's plenty of evidence from the past few years:

Stoner vs Melandri
Edwards vs Toseland
Pedrosa vs Everyone else on a Honda

The development of the bikes and the electronics have certainly closed the gaps between the different bikes, but this has merely made the rider a BIGGER part of the equation. This is exactly where Honda have gone so disastrously wrong over the past 5 years or so.

The RC211V was a missile, by a very long chalk the best bike on the grid, with everyone able to ride it and a lot of people capable of winning on it. Once Rossi went to Yamaha, Honda stopped winning, and have never recovered, as they've focused on the bike and not the riders.

Why have Yamaha become the dominant factory? Certainly, the M1 is the best bike on the grid (thanks to Rossi, JB, Lorenzo, Edwards, even Toseland), but look at who is riding the bike: two of the best three racers in the world, three of the best five racers in the world, four of the best seven or eight racers in the world. Yamaha dominates because they understand that people are the biggest part of the equation. The rider is still at least 70%, probably nearer 80% of the equation.

And let's not get all misty-eyed about the past. If there is one rule of thumb about the past, it is nearly always that it was worse than the present, in every single aspect.

The 90s: Once Rainey was gone and Schwantz lost interest, Doohan owned the 90s. Doohan was definitely the biggest part of that, but behind Doohan, there was nobody, and only the factory Honda was capable of competing. Without a factory NSR, you were nowhere.

The late 70s/early 80s were the same, only then it was about having a factory Yamaha. As for the 60s and the MV Agusta era, all you had to do was turn up - and beat your teammate - to win.

GP machinery has never been as equal as it is today. As a consequence, the rider is a much, much bigger part of the equation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 28 2010, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Naive, Curvey. You're better than that. To be complimentary to the rider, I'd say 70 percent rider, 30 percent bike. But I fear that the balance may be somewhere closer to 60 percent rider, 40 percent bike. With the advancement of electronics, the old 80/20 rule of the 500 and early 990 days is long gone. Lap times are far too dependent on electronic aids to say that the bike is only 20 percent of the equation. Electronics alone might make up 20 percent of the equation. Sad day, really.

no dude. naive thy self my friend... its 80/20
the BEST bikes say like the current Yam or the Duc (for Stoner only it seems) at 100% is the 20% equation of the 80/20.. the bike has to be there yes, but the rider will ALWAYS make the difference.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 29 2010, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Too true, which may explain explain why so many are citing Stoner as the fastest, most talented etc etc etc. The Burgess created Yamaha/Rossi Combo is probably more like 50/50 whereas it has become increasingly obvious that Stoner contributes say 90>95% and the rest Ducati. Though Tardossi's comments when he left Duc. could be interpreted to mean the Ducati is actually a negative contribution
Rossi rode magnificently in 2008, with hardly a mistake in the year; apart from anything else he managed to be mainly uninjured which has always been one of the most important skills in bike racing, and remains so in the purported 800cc "safety" formula.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Mar 28 2010, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Easy. Rossi thinks he's too good to ride an Italian motorcycle though he is italian himself, that's how big his head is. He rather take all the glory of Italy than to share it with Ducati, plain and simple.