Valentino Rossi

dbl

Keshav said:

That actually makes more sense given Ducati's seeming inability to engineer effective changes to the chassis in the following years.

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Yes -- one could say that designing a chassis for given tires does not seem to be their forte.

michaelm said:

Absolutely agree (motegi 2007 was a strange race wet dry race, barros went against the advice of bridgestone and the choice of all the other bridgestone runners, but it was a podium on a pramac d'antin, with the d'antin part making it even more impressive, and capirossi certainly had other podiums). That ducati have had to completely change their chassis philosophy, and are now being called upon to change their traditional engine architecture at great expense all because of a cost saving control tyre is frankly ludicrous.



It will be interesting to see how the new thing goes on wsbk tyres.

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Yes -- that will definitely be interesting.



Cost saving is evidently a joke, or a pretext for bending rules one way or the other, in MotoGP:..

birdman said:

I have it on file, JB interview from Laguna last year. He says very clearly, "we have the same forks as everyone else, a control tire, we have 'the engine' and we have 'the rider'. I think what we need is a more conventional (alloy) chassis".



Well seems to me Ducati are gave them everything they asked for. But now its the engines fault, after a long list of its this or its that. Remember at one point it was because Rossi is taller than midget Stoner. Haha sorry couldnt resist.



Ducati already would have spent millions developing the current engine as a non stressed member, after they already had to dump the GP12 engine as a stressed member. Now people expect them to dump it again after only 7 races for a new narrow v because its been 'obvious' all along thats what they needed? Not even mighty Honda would redevelop an entirely new engine after only 7 races.



Whether its 90 degree or 75 degree, will a V engine bike ever have the same weight distribution as an I4? At the very start Rossi said "I dont expect Ducati to build me a Yamaha, I must adapt to the Ducati". Why didn't he just tell the truth from the start and save them so much hassle?

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Agree. The engine is about the only thing that hasn't been radically changed, so that's what Flossi and the Boppers have come to fixate on.



IMO, screwing with the V angle will not affect a significant change in the engine's center of mass, rotational characteristics, etc. Barry's linear gyroscopic force that supposedly inhibits the bike from turning is 100% mythical. (Even on an 'L' twin, pistons move forward, pistons move back. Net gain ZERO. With a 4 pot V, you can have them going in opposite directions, so that they completely cancel each other.) As you point out, Honda and Yam are running wildly different engine layouts, and neither company has trouble making the bike work.



IMO, the chassis is fundamentally broken, and no one, not even the self-anointed Setup Gods, have a frigging clue what to do about it.

Geonerd said:

Agree. The engine is about the only thing that hasn't been radically changed, so that's what Flossi and the Boppers have come to fixate on.



IMO, screwing with the V angle will not affect a significant change in the engine's center of mass, rotational characteristics, etc. Barry's linear gyroscopic force that supposedly inhibits the bike from turning is 100% mythical. (Even on an 'L' twin, pistons move forward, pistons move back. Net gain ZERO. With a 4 pot V, you can have them going in opposite directions, so that they completely cancel each other.) As you point out, Honda and Yam are running wildly different engine layouts, and neither company has trouble making the bike work.



IMO, the chassis is fundamentally broken, and no one, not even the self-anointed Setup Gods, have a frigging clue what to do about it.

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At any instant in time!!?? net gain zero!!?? Are you saying tyre grip is some feature which has the intelligence to average forces over a cycle?



You may want to rethink that ...... VSG's are real, look them up then try to deny it is a real effect.



Here is a question for you ........ why do speedway bikes run "laydown" engines these days? ........ look it up then tell me its a myth.

Why did Yamaha dirt bikes come out with a canted back cylinder, a few years ago?



Cancel each other!!! get real Geo!! you have no idea what a VSG is do you FFS read up a bit on it before you spout crap.



It aint the frame, they have done so much to try this and it did diddly squat. They canted the engine back and they crash less.



To be honest though, at the moment Ducati's biggest problem is its riders.

Geonerd said:

Agree. The engine is about the only thing that hasn't been radically changed, so that's what Flossi and the Boppers have come to fixate on.



IMO, screwing with the V angle will not affect a significant change in the engine's center of mass, rotational characteristics, etc. Barry's linear gyroscopic force that supposedly inhibits the bike from turning is 100% mythical. (Even on an 'L' twin, pistons move forward, pistons move back. Net gain ZERO. With a 4 pot V, you can have them going in opposite directions, so that they completely cancel each other.) As you point out, Honda and Yam are running wildly different engine layouts, and neither company has trouble making the bike work.



IMO, the chassis is fundamentally broken, and no one, not even the self-anointed Setup Gods, have a frigging clue what to do about it.

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You know a lot more about engineering than I do, but the carbon fibre chassis bike in 2009 looked pretty good when stoner was healthy, and he himself attributed his problems that year to his physical health and said the bike was fine. The bike went bad in 2010 before rossi got there, when they tried to make it into a corner speed bike or whatever, which you just couldn't get to from where they started, and as j4rno says the tyres didn't help.



If you look at in retrospect the 800 ducati was the antithesis of everything rossi had developed in previous bikes and played to none of his strengths. If you listen to what he actually said in more reflective moments early on he was always unhappy with the engine/power characteristics. I seriously think that with the same resources he and jb could have done a lot with the suzuki, which was finally getting adapted to the control tyre without them anyway..

J4rn0 said:

...with the current tires.

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The current tires are the standard to which Honda and Yamaha are required to work with and both have done much better.

Understandably - Ducati is a smaller company with lesser resources. Realistically they don't seem capable of catching

up. That the Duc has been repeatedly cited as idiosyncratic and largely unrideable by so many talented riders does seem

empirical evidence that the deficiency is largely with Ducati and not so much with the tires

Keshav said:

The current tires are the standard to which Honda and Yamaha are required to work with and both have done much better.

Understandably - Ducati is a smaller company with lesser resources. Realistically they don't seem capable of catching

up. The Duc has been repeatedly cited as idiosyncratic and largely unrideable by so many talented riders does seem

empirical evidence that the fault is largely with Ducati and not so much with the tires

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Or the tyres were changed so they suited the honda and yamnaha much better.

michaelm said:

Or the tyres were changed so they suited the honda and yamnaha much better.

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That is self-evident. Tho there's no reason to believe the changes were a premeditated move to hurt the chances of Ducati.

Ducati has stubbornly insisted on breeding based more on individualism than on pragmatism. It's great for marketing street bikes

but hasn't worked out so well in MotoGP. I don't fault them for trying - but at a certain point it is incumbent upon them to acknowledge

having reached the point of diminishing returns. The expensive band-aid approach is a major failure. BMW created a whole new

engine to go racing. Ducati needs to bite the bullet and do the same.

michaelm said:

Or the tyres were changed so they suited the honda and yamnaha much better.

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Hmmmm?? I wonder ? .....



Did they change the tyres around the end of 2010/beginning of 2011?



Cos before that time Ducati was a bike that was good for regular podiums and occasional wins.



Post 2010 its has been a bike that is good for bugger all podiums.



I wonder why? Is it the tyres as you suggest?



Certainly about that time the Honda got real good!



I wonder what tyres Casey Stoner has on his tractor? lets see how that performs next year!??

Yeah this is too nuts for me.

Rossi lashes out at Ducati

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jul/120702b.htm

It's not all about the tires, but it's certainly a lot.

Even a certain (now forgotten) Makoto Tamada could play god on a couple of occasions and make everybody else look silly, only because he had the right Bridgestones on his Honda.

J4rn0 said:

It's not all about the tires, but it's certainly a lot.

Even a certain (now forgotten) Makoto Tamada could play god on a couple of occasions and make everybody else look silly, only because he had the right Bridgestones on his Honda.

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Reasonable response. Nice to be on the same page one in a while. Did you see the above link?

Keshav said:

Rossi lashes out at Ducati

http://www.superbike...Jul/120702b.htm

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Translation: I can stay with Ducati, if Audi fire Preziosi & C. and put someone in charge at Ducati Corse who will listen to me.



This is something that will make people who don't like Rossi dislike him even more, and those who worship him blindly keep hoping for magical changes.



I do not believe in magic, but if Audi put adequate resources up front, then a radical restructuring of Ducati Corse would make 100% sense.

Keshav said:

Rossi lashes out at Ducati

http://www.superbike...Jul/120702b.htm

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What a load of sensationalist crap ! They say " [size="-1"]Seven-time MotoGP World Champion Valentino Rossi pulled the pin and lobbed a couple of live grenades at Ducati"[/size]

[size="-1"]Then quote him as saying "[/size][size="-1"]"Ducati need for try to bring this bike at a better level". Not saying anything that most race fand are not already saying. Hardly big news let alone "lobbing grenades" is it?[/size]

Have you guys read Checa's test on the new superbike?he says that from mid corner it understeers,ooops looks as though Prezi has got the lot wrong,Rossi staying Prezi going? this should get interesting.

chopperman said:

What a load of sensationalist crap ! They say " Seven-time MotoGP World Champion Valentino Rossi pulled the pin and lobbed a couple of live grenades at Ducati"

Then quote him as saying ""Ducati need for try to bring this bike at a better level". Not saying anything that most race fand are not already saying. Hardly big news let alone "lobbing grenades" is it?

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Its about the same feeling I got. I read it a few times looking for the grenades, missiles, hell fire, and napalm, but it sound nothing more than what he was saying already, that is, Ducati got to improve, they aren't listening to him, he is also frustrated and doesn't know what to do, and they need creative solutions because the ones they've tried so far are not working. Hardly news. Both Nicky and Rossi have been saying the bike needs to improve, perhaps only with different tactics and expression. Nicky is not, like Hawk suggested, just giving Ducati lip service, he mentioned several specific problems, tire wear being the worrisome thing for him as would be expected with his style. Also, when they asked him if he was confident about the "updates" for Laguna, he responded by saying, he doesn't think that there will be any significant updates, and looked incredulous and the question. However, all of this might best be discussed behind closed doors. Never looks good to air out in public, but then again, we want these guys to answer questions honestly. So its a tricky balancing act. No doubt, the person making the headline here was looking for cheap hits on the site.



Again, my takes are, Ducati have made radical changes, its just not enough to close the gap, which of course is frustrating for all parties involved. Development from riders is a concept that is overrated while still being misunderstood as if it as simple and easy as rider feedback translating into good solutions, its way more complicated. Add to this, the Japanese brands started off ahead and have been developing their bikes to stay ahead.



However, I do agree with their conclusion, that its hard to see Rossi continue to ride for team red.

J4rn0 said:

I do not believe in magic, but if Audi put adequate resources up front, then a radical restructuring of Ducati Corse would make 100% sense.

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the thing is though , if you restructre it will take some time for the changes to show some fruit.



i'm sure rossi will stay a couple of years in gps(i think if he jumped on a yamaha/honda there would be nobody saying hes past it, in my opinion he is every bit as good as in 2004...age becomes a factor after 35 IMO especially if you had a lot of surgeries but in that respect rossi is fortunate)



however, i have my doubts that he will spend his last years at 100% physical ability waiting. you have to be realistic that at 38 he probably will still be very fast, but not at the same level as at 25



if he wants to add an 8th premier title to his resumee he has to get on a good bike ASAP

no way a guy (even rossi) nearing 40 will be on par ability wise with lorenzo and the new generation that will come in the following years.

Jumkie said:

Its about the same feeling I got. I read it a few times looking for the grenades, missiles, hell fire, and napalm, but it sound nothing more than what he was saying already, that is, Ducati got to improve, they aren't listening to him, he is also frustrated and doesn't know what to do, and they need creative solutions because the ones they've tried so far are not working. Hardly news. Both Nicky and Rossi have been saying the bike needs to improve, perhaps only with different tactics and expression. Nicky is not, like Hawk suggested, just giving Ducati lip service, he mentioned several specific problems, tire wear being the worrisome thing for him as would be expected with his style. Also, when they asked him if he was confident about the "updates" for Laguna, he responded by saying, he doesn't think that there will be any significant updates, and looked incredulous and the question. However, all of this might best be discussed behind closed doors. Never looks good to air out in public, but then again, we want these guys to answer questions honestly. So its a tricky balancing act. No doubt, the person making the headline here was looking for cheap hits on the site.



Again, my takes are, Ducati have made radical changes, its just not enough to close the gap, which of course is frustrating for all parties involved. Development from riders is a concept that is overrated while still being misunderstood as if it as simple and easy as rider feedback translating into good solutions, its way more complicated. Add to this, the Japanese brands started off ahead and have been developing their bikes to stay ahead.



However, I do agree with their conclusion, that its hard to see Rossi continue to ride for team red.

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After this many seasons with insufficient improvement Nicky and Rossi are to my mind pretty heroic in their laid-back approach thus far

to airing dirty laundry. Lets not forget how much it means to for them to win and how hard it must be to watch their careers passing them

by. Rossi is possibly at the end of his time being a top contender and Nicky's had nothing but .... support post 2006. Nicky is still relatively

young and doubtless has dreams of something like a come-back. Rossi and Hayden are not freakin' lab technicians, they're guys who were born to race. The sheer frustration of being kept around to do donkey work after all this time has to horrendous. I know a lot of folks hate complainers - but the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" cliche is still around because it's still true. As things are going now - I wouldn't be shocked to hear that neither of them will be racing Ducatis in MGP next year. If Ducati already know that now - it makes sense that they'd be courting Crutchey.