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Valencia Tests 8-9 November 2011

Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Tomorrow the tests begin, and Preziosi has announced that Ducati will bring the new 1000cc prototype with a full twin spar aluminium frame (finally!) for all Ducati riders, satellite teams included.



Preziosi mentioned the Bridgestone tires and the 6 engine rule as the reasons that brought about this change. It is not yet clear if the angle between the cylinders has been reduced as well. Preziosi added that this bike is only a laboratory bike, not the bike that will race the 2012 season.



They do not expect the bike to be immediately competitive with Honda and Yamaha of course.
 
Sounds good to me, now the frame can be changed without needing a new engine. The factory fan boys won't complain about the shiity msma rules that don't allow real innovation in bike design.
 
Hopefully the weather will be better and I'll get some good shots of the new machines before I fly home tomorrow night. Watch this space!
 
Hopefully this will be the start of a real push for Ducati to get the bike more competitve for the 2012 racing season. I don't think Rossi will leave Ducati till he wins and i'm sure Jerry Burgess and the crew along with Rossi and Hayden can eventually get there with the bike. Whether or not it will be a championship winning bike is another story, but I can see Rossi winning on it one day...hopefully in 2012. It will take plenty of time though and they may not get any better at all...however they can now work around the bike with the ali frame which Rossi has wanted for a while now I believe.
 
Tomorrow the tests begin, and Preziosi has announced that Ducati will bring the new 1000cc prototype with a full twin spar aluminium frame (finally!) for all Ducati riders, satellite teams included.



Preziosi mentioned the Bridgestone tires and the 6 engine rule as the reasons that brought about this change. It is not yet clear if the angle between the cylinders has been reduced as well. Preziosi added that this bike is only a laboratory bike, not the bike that will race the 2012 season.



They do not expect the bike to be immediately competitive with Honda and Yamaha of course.

Full twin spar? Are you sure its not just a rumor? (I kid, kid).



J4rno, you don't think they may have brought some of the changes because they have Rossi? Or are you still of the belief that Ducati haven't made any changes for him, they just occurred in spite of him?



"Finally!"? That's interesting enthusiasm, considering your previous suggestions and takes on the matter. You know what, I've also had a change in heart, I think the lessons of 2011 brought much to light, though I suspect there will be many who have not learned them or acknowledge them. And of course, they will eventually be forgotten. Notwithstanding, the fact that Nicky Hayden's fate is attached to Rossi, I'm hoping for the best. If they had to strap a turbo boost to the things, I would support it. It they asked me to send in a donation, I would send a substantial one. I just want to see them succeed.



I don't think DucatiGP are dumb as many have been accusing them, and I'll add, I have lots of respect for them as they have been committed to the sport. They simply tried something different in the real spirit of 'prototype' racing, and it turned out only one guy was able to capitalize on its unique design. I think had they been able to figure out the front end issue, Casey would have won several titles with them, and in 2010, it looked like even Nicky was coming to grips with it, as his string of 4th place finishes seemed commendable considering he was up against the Honda & Yamaha tops riders. Unfortunately, not even their best and "legendary" input by Rossi and Burgess were able to fix this problem.



If they continue to throw everything at the problem as they did this year, I think they will have better results for several reasons: the more power hopefully will mask discrepancies in the design that is now in its infant stage, and having a conventional solution such as a twin spar will allow them more effective input and adjustment from established experience.



Good luck to Ducati, they have two "aliens" on their factory bike, one recognized, one not, but the year end classification numbers don't lie...still.
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Preziosi mentioned the Bridgestone tires and the 6 engine rule as the reasons that brought about this change. It is not yet clear if the angle between the cylinders has been reduced as well. Preziosi added that this bike is only a laboratory bike, not the bike that will race the 2012 season.



Would they have had time to dyno/stress test a new engine with an angle change?

Interested in seeing the bike tomorrow.
 
Jum, I was quoting Preziosi -- not myself
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MCN's translation:



[font=arial, sans-serif]
"We believe that the engine-based chassis is a good idea in general but we believe in MotoGP there are some constraints that suggest doing the choice we did. The tyres are very good for me from a technical point of view and the amount of energy they can put on the front tyre they can still do their best times of the race on the last lap. But to reach that result this kind of tyres are completely different and they require special chassis stiffness.​
[/font]​

[font=arial, sans-serif]
"The other point in pushing us to choose this kind of frame is the number of engines are limited. So when you have an engine-based chassis, if you want to change some dimensions or weight distribution, you have to re-design the tooling to do new parts for a new engine and this is a big effort from an economical point of view but it is quite impossible to do in MotoGP with only six engines. We had to use a seventh engine just because we wanted to change the front frame and this of course is not the way to win the championship. For that reason when you know very well where you want to put everything, the solution of the engine based frame is very good, but when you have to work continuously in developing a bike according to the development of the tyres or the requests of the riders, the only way to do it is with a complete frame and we had to do that."​
[/font]​
 
Jum, I was quoting Preziosi -- not myself
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MCN's translation:




"We believe that the engine-based chassis is a good idea in general but we believe in MotoGP there are some constraints that suggest doing the choice we did. The tyres are very good for me from a technical point of view and the amount of energy they can put on the front tyre they can still do their best times of the race on the last lap. But to reach that result this kind of tyres are completely different and they require special chassis stiffness.








"The other point in pushing us to choose this kind of frame is the number of engines are limited. So when you have an engine-based chassis, if you want to change some dimensions or weight distribution, you have to re-design the tooling to do new parts for a new engine and this is a big effort from an economical point of view but it is quite impossible to do in MotoGP with only six engines. We had to use a seventh engine just because we wanted to change the front frame and this of course is not the way to win the championship. For that reason when you know very well where you want to put everything, the solution of the engine based frame is very good, but when you have to work continuously in developing a bike according to the development of the tyres or the requests of the riders, the only way to do it is with a complete frame and we had to do that."​






Well then...sounds like he's "wisening" up a bit and ready to play the game.​
 
Here I go betting again .... but I bet if the Ducati is competitive then Rossi will once again be completely responsible and will be the greatest developer of all time. His own comments will be forgotten that he is not an engineer and it is not him who develops the bike.



Sort of sounds like "Privatise the Profits and Nationalise the Debts". Rossi and his fans has been happy to throw Ducati under the bus and I have no doubt they will now claim all the accolades. That is if there are any to be had.
 
The bike was never changed that much because of the engine rule. It was a poor design and now it won't limit design work like it did this year.
Here I go betting again .... but I bet if the Ducati is competitive then Rossi will once again be completely responsible and will be the greatest developer of all time. His own comments will be forgotten that he is not an engineer and it is not him who develops the bike.



Sort of sounds like "Privatise the Profits and Nationalise the Debts". Rossi and his fans has been happy to throw Ducati under the bus and I have no doubt they will now claim all the accolades. That is if there are any to be had.
 
Jum, I was quoting Preziosi -- not myself
<




MCN's translation:












"We believe that the engine-based chassis is a good idea in general but we believe in MotoGP there are some constraints that suggest doing the choice we did. The tyres are very good for me from a technical point of view and the amount of energy they can put on the front tyre they can still do their best times of the race on the last lap. But to reach that result this kind of tyres are completely different and they require special chassis stiffness.





















"The other point in pushing us to choose this kind of frame is the number of engines are limited. So when you have an engine-based chassis, if you want to change some dimensions or weight distribution, you have to re-design the tooling to do new parts for a new engine and this is a big effort from an economical point of view but it is quite impossible to do in MotoGP with only six engines. We had to use a seventh engine just because we wanted to change the front frame and this of course is not the way to win the championship. For that reason when you know very well where you want to put everything, the solution of the engine based frame is very good, but when you have to work continuously in developing a bike according to the development of the tyres or the requests of the riders, the only way to do it is with a complete frame and we had to do that."​


Kudos to lex, who basically picked this in 2008. Having co-developed their bike with/for the bridgestone tyre, the ducati was designed for the high tech multi-compound bridgestone tyre on which stoner won the 2007 championship, which may not have been available after early 2008. Ducati themselves also foresaw bigger problems and made an 11th hour bid to switch to michelin, so they could continue to have tyres developed to suit their bike, just before the control tyre was mandated.



If they are rolling out twin spar chassis for everyone just as development mules the costs must be huge, although still probably not as much as honda expends as a matter of course. Is marlboro bankrolling everything or has valentino brought other sources as well?. I guess it is make or break as they might not survive in motogp with a repeat of this year.



 
Here I go betting again .... but I bet if the Ducati is competitive then Rossi will once again be completely responsible and will be the greatest developer of all time. His own comments will be forgotten that he is not an engineer and it is not him who develops the bike.



Sort of sounds like "Privatise the Profits and Nationalise the Debts". Rossi and his fans has been happy to throw Ducati under the bus and I have no doubt they will now claim all the accolades. That is if there are any to be had.



Getting an early start silly season drama?
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If they are rolling out twin spar chassis for everyone just as development mules the costs must be huge,
It does seem an extreme measure, why spend that development cash on producing so many versions of bike by their own admission they are not going to race in 2012? Unless he just meant that the factory team wouldn't be using it.



So is it further proof of a lack of direction & throwing everything they can at the cause? Or a show of confidence?
 
s4tya.jpg


Does that look like an aluminum chassis, it's a little hard to tell. I took this from Nicky's twitter. The picture of his hand looks terrible but he's gonna ride it out.

He said no rest for Duc, they stayed up until the late hours of the night preparing for the test.
 
Would they have had time to dyno/stress test a new engine with an angle change?

Interested in seeing the bike tomorrow.

It depends on when they started development but it took them 8 months for the 800cc engine. If they do develop a new engine it should take less time.



By bringing FDM in-house, Ducati cut 20 months from the development process of the engine designed for its Desmosedici race bike. A flagship success for the design team, the Desmosedici engine was designed and assembled in only 8 months. The company’s previous engine had taken 28 months to design and build, when the majority of prototypes were outsourced to service bureaus.

http://www.stratasys.com/Resources/Case-Studies/Automotive-FDM-Technology-Case-Studies/Ducati-Functional-Prototypes.aspx
 
2 things I am picking up on from the Ducati press release for the test.



1) All Ducati riders are getting the 'zero' bike. Why? Have they been disappointed with the feedback given for their 15million euro outlay? So far the feedback given has only taken them closer to the back of the grid so perhaps they don't trust it. I thought that Hayden was Rossi's only personal test rider now it appears that there are 3 personal testers.



2) How would they have gone down the path of a 'zero' bike this close to the start of the season without unlimited testing? We have already heard that the Honda and Yamaha riders don't want or need extra testing. I find it hard to believe that the testing rule was not a result of Ducati sitting down with Dorna and explaining that they need to start from a 'zero' bike and make many new chassis before we find a competitive GP12 one and if Dorna wants Rossi at the front then they need to change the rules.
 
2 things I am picking up on from the Ducati press release for the test.



1) All Ducati riders are getting the 'zero' bike. Why? Have they been disappointed with the feedback given for their 15million euro outlay? So far the feedback given has only taken them closer to the back of the grid so perhaps they don't trust it. I thought that Hayden was Rossi's only personal test rider now it appears that there are 3 personal testers.



2) How would they have gone down the path of a 'zero' bike this close to the start of the season without unlimited testing? We have already heard that the Honda and Yamaha riders don't want or need extra testing. I find it hard to believe that the testing rule was not a result of Ducati sitting down with Dorna and explaining that they need to start from a 'zero' bike and make many new chassis before we find a competitive GP12 one and if Dorna wants Rossi at the front then they need to change the rules.



Ducati's presence on the grid is valuable. They are supplying 5 bikes on the grid to Yamaha's 4. Dorna doesn't need to see any more factories drop out of the series. If you believe in grand conspiracies, then yes Ducati/Rossi successfully changed the testing rules so that they don't fall further behind.



I don't see it that way. CRT teams stand to benefit the most from unlimited testing with contracted riders.



I am glad that Ducati/Rossi also benefits. It sucks to see a rider who is just as fast a Lorenzo/Pedrosa pushing for a top 7 finish. I hope Ducati gets it together. And since Rossi has proven it is the bike and not the rider.. Bring back Melandri on competitive machinery.



.....What the heck happened to Kalio anyways? he went from threatening Nicky's ride to the second group in Moto2.
 
1) All Ducati riders are getting the 'zero' bike. Why? Have they been disappointed with the feedback given for their 15million euro outlay? So far the feedback given has only taken them closer to the back of the grid so perhaps they don't trust it. I thought that Hayden was Rossi's only personal test rider now it appears that there are 3 personal testers.



I think it's safe to say that the larger the sample size, the easier it is to identify commonalities between individual users. Hence if you give more riders the 'Zero' bike, the easier it it is for Ducati engineers to evaluate an issue a try to rectify it. I think all manufacturers would do this and not just Ducati.