Track Limits

JKant · Sep 18, 2016

kenup283 said:
The most aggregious case this past weekend had to be Luthi at the start of Moto2.

Overcooked the first turn by a mile, went from 6th to 3rd in one corner which he did not complete, and there after never gave back a place nor was he penalized.

Eventually he finished back to 6th where he started but there was a total lack of care for cutting corners in comparison to barley running a nats ... wide and getting back on exactly in same postion from where you left off.

Assuming you're talking about last week's race at Misano, there was nothing wrong Luthi's move. He was in third place when Nakagami lost his front and veered in front of him, forcing him to go off-track. He then returned to the race in third place.

https://vimeo.com/183182984

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 18, 2016

p4p1 said:
But couldn't prove it, despite all the evidence that was looked at. It was nothing more than a ploy to keep Rossis championship alive and to try and shift the blame. You think if they looked at the data and it was obvious they wouldn't have said we proved Marquez was ....... with Rossi but he didn't break any rules? Instead Webb just said that he believed didn't believe Marquezs explanation but believed Rossis.

Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.

michaelm · Sep 18, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.

His opinion is similar to mine, and others on this forum, that MM was racing Rossi for position in a legal fashion which is actually not only allowed in GP bike racing but pretty much the essence of that sport, and that RD after specifically finding that he had raced legally had no business making decisions or altering penalties on the basis of his putative motives, particularly when presumably not equipped with mind reading equipment.

#22 · Sep 18, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Maybe because RD stated Marquez' was riding "to cause trouble" or however they stated it, in Sepang.
.

Again when Rosi is involved, it is someone else's fault. I was shocked when Mike Webb stated this, without any evidence and thereby also blaming Marquez for Rossi crashing him out. It is unbelievable.

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.

Marquez rode within the regulations of the sport while racing for position, the ONLY rider in that incident who broke the rules was Rossi and in light of other punishments both before and after, and given that this particular incident was premeditated, the penalty' was extremely light.

If people propose we start punishing riders for 'intent' then there would be more penalties each race than could be counted.

p4p1 · Sep 18, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.

It's simple, if Race Direction had proof that Marquez deliberately ...... with Rossi they would've said he did. They couldn't find any proof, they had access to everything to prove it other than as Michael said mind reading equipment. But still no proof, if all the data they had from the weekend can't prove he did indeed .... with Rossi on purpose then he more than likely didn't. DORNA wanted nothing more than a Rossi vs Lorenzo in a straight up fight in Valencia and their dream would've been for Rossi to win. If RD was able to prove that Marquez ...... with Rossi at Sepang(and again they had available information to do so) they could've given him an even more lenient 'penalty' because of something along the lines of Rossi breaking the rules but we proved that Marquez was maliciously slowing Rossi and trying to end his championship dream because of a personal vendetta. Race Direction wasn't able to and you know as well as I do that they sure looked hard.

Marquez believed he had the pace to get away from Rossi, but stated Everytime he got in front of Rossi Rossi would then get in front and slow him - why is Rossi to be believed about this but not Marquez despite Rossi famously doing this before.
Without Rossis pre-race comments on Marquez do you think that he gets such a lenient penalty?

Mike Webbs public statement was an embarrassment to the sport. He deflected part of the blame to the victim without any proof. He said that he believed that Marquez was lying and trying to end Rossis championship while saying that he believed Rossi was telling the truth and didn't mean to make Marquez crash despite a non racing and malicious move that did so.

When asking yourself who was really trying to slow who think about this, Rossi was pushing so hard that he nearly high-sided 3 or so times but despite how hard he was pushing and how on the limit he was he still out broke Marquez to get in front. Much like he did to Stoner in Laguna, the difference between the two races is that Marquez unlike Stoner will give hard moves in return and will fight like a dog for position. None of this proves that Rossi was trying to slow Marquez however Rossi did have more reason to do so, experience doing so and the ability to play the media so it didn't look like he was the one guilty of ruining someone's race.

kenup283 · Sep 18, 2016

JKant said:
Assuming you're talking about last week's race at Misano, there was nothing wrong Luthi's move. He was in third place when Nakagami lost his front and veered in front of him, forcing him to go off-track. He then returned to the race in third place.

https://vimeo.com/183182984

Yes that is what I was referring. Thanks for adding value to the discussion by bringing in the video.

To understand the advantage Luthi gained by cutting the chicane you first have to recognize the disadvantaged position he put himself in.

He was way out of position for the next turn and right at the moment he was about to pay for the positions gained on entry under braking, and get passed by at least two or three riders, he had the chance to bail on the turn and took it.

I'm not faulting him nor calling for penalties. I would rather this track limits thing be done away with. But you cannot suggest that he was in third place. He would never have held that had he stayed within the track limits.

JKant · Sep 19, 2016

kenup283 said:
To understand the advantage Luthi gained by cutting the chicane you first have to recognize the disadvantaged position he put himself in.

He was way out of position for the next turn and right at the moment he was about to pay for the positions gained on entry under braking, and get passed by at least two or three riders, he had the chance to bail on the turn and took it.

Luthi wasn't disadvantaged at all. Half through the turn he had better drive than Zarco (might even have taken first place were it not for Nakagami) as well as sufficient track to brake for the next turn (though Zarco might have taken him back there). Compare his speed and the line he took there with any of the subsequent laps. It was good enough.

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 23, 2016

#22 said:
Again when Rosi is involved, it is someone else's fault. I was shocked when Mike Webb stated this, without any evidence and thereby also blaming Marquez for Rossi crashing him out. It is unbelievable.

Marquez rode within the regulations of the sport while racing for position, the ONLY rider in that incident who broke the rules was Rossi and in light of other punishments both before and after, and given that this particular incident was premeditated, the penalty' was extremely light.

If people propose we start punishing riders for 'intent' then there would be more penalties each race than could be counted.

Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.

michaelm · Sep 23, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.

So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi in a legal fashion, particularly after being maligned by Rossi, if he so chooses in any case?

michaelm · Sep 23, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.

So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi by racing him legally, particularly after Rossi has maligned him and/or attempted to intimidate him, if he so chooses in any case?

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 23, 2016

p4p1 said:
It's simple, if Race Direction had proof that Marquez deliberately ...... with Rossi they would've said he did. They couldn't find any proof, they had access to everything to prove it other than as Michael said mind reading equipment. But still no proof, if all the data they had from the weekend can't prove he did indeed .... with Rossi on purpose then he more than likely didn't. DORNA wanted nothing more than a Rossi vs Lorenzo in a straight up fight in Valencia and their dream would've been for Rossi to win. If RD was able to prove that Marquez ...... with Rossi at Sepang(and again they had available information to do so) they could've given him an even more lenient 'penalty' because of something along the lines of Rossi breaking the rules but we proved that Marquez was maliciously slowing Rossi and trying to end his championship dream because of a personal vendetta. Race Direction wasn't able to and you know as well as I do that they sure looked hard.

Marquez believed he had the pace to get away from Rossi, but stated Everytime he got in front of Rossi Rossi would then get in front and slow him - why is Rossi to be believed about this but not Marquez despite Rossi famously doing this before.
Without Rossis pre-race comments on Marquez do you think that he gets such a lenient penalty?

Mike Webbs public statement was an embarrassment to the sport. He deflected part of the blame to the victim without any proof. He said that he believed that Marquez was lying and trying to end Rossis championship while saying that he believed Rossi was telling the truth and didn't mean to make Marquez crash despite a non racing and malicious move that did so.

When asking yourself who was really trying to slow who think about this, Rossi was pushing so hard that he nearly high-sided 3 or so times but despite how hard he was pushing and how on the limit he was he still out broke Marquez to get in front. Much like he did to Stoner in Laguna, the difference between the two races is that Marquez unlike Stoner will give hard moves in return and will fight like a dog for position. None of this proves that Rossi was trying to slow Marquez however Rossi did have more reason to do so, experience doing so and the ability to play the media so it didn't look like he was the one guilty of ruining someone's race.

What was this available information that RD in your mind?

But Marquez was in front of Rossi from the start, before suddenly losing a lot of pace and dropping behind him. After the battle started, the pace naturally dropped massively so trying to determine who had more pace at that point seems difficult to determine. I'd be happy to see your detailed analysis of those laps to see how you came to the conclusion it was Rossi who was trying to slow Marquez down.

What was Rossis motivation in trying to slow Marquez down though? He sees his only title rival at 2nd, passes Marquez and starts to catch Lorenzo a bit. Why does he at this point think he better make sure he denies Marquez instead of trying to catch and pass Lorenzo, for his championship aspirations.

I'll give you another chance to look at LS 08 and see the context between that, and compare it with this, to see if you find anything interesting.

Again, what makes you think RD is required to analyse or make decisions based on only the telemetry?

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 23, 2016

michaelm said:
So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi in a legal fashion, particularly after being maligned by Rossi, if he so chooses in any case?

I don't contend it's a proven fact Marquez was messing with Rossi, I contend that's what I believe in?

So you are saying this is okay in your book, if a rider is called out beforehand? Well that's a whole other topic in itself then.

michaelm · Sep 23, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
What was this available information that RD in your mind?

But Marquez was in front of Rossi from the start, before suddenly losing a lot of pace and dropping behind him. After the battle started, the pace naturally dropped massively so trying to determine who had more pace at that point seems difficult to determine. I'd be happy to see your detailed analysis of those laps to see how you came to the conclusion it was Rossi who was trying to slow Marquez down.

What was Rossis motivation in trying to slow Marquez down though? He sees his only title rival at 2nd, passes Marquez and starts to catch Lorenzo a bit. Why does he at this point think he better make sure he denies Marquez instead of trying to catch and pass Lorenzo, for his championship aspirations.

I'll give you another chance to look at LS 08 and see the context between that, and compare it with this, to see if you find anything interesting.

Again, what makes you think RD is required to analyse or make decisions based on only the telemetry?

What has been required of RD previously is the determination of whether riders have raced legally. Motivations of particular riders have been hitherto beyond their purview, presumably reflecting the lack of mind reading equipment in their armamentarium.

michaelm · Sep 23, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
I don't contend it's a proven fact Marquez was messing with Rossi, I contend that's what I believe in?

So you are saying this is okay in your book, if a rider is called out beforehand? Well that's a whole other topic in itself then.

I am saying that your belief, just like Rossi's, is a belief, and to proceed on the basis of mere belief, and in particular to contend that your belief is equivalent to proven fact as Rossi pretty much did, in the absence of being able to offer anything in the way of proof, is fallacious and dangerous, as centuries/millenia of wars fought on the basis of religious belief rather prove imo.

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 24, 2016

michaelm said:
I am saying that your belief, just like Rossi's, is a belief, and to proceed on the basis of mere belief, and in particular to contend that your belief is equivalent to proven fact as Rossi pretty much did, in the absence of being able to offer anything in the way of proof, is fallacious and dangerous, as centuries/millenia of wars fought on the basis of religious belief rather prove imo.

Can you point out where I did this? Or is this one of your endless assumptions?

michaelm · Sep 24, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Can you point out where I did this? Or is this one of your endless assumptions?

Can you read? I "believe" I said rather specifically that it was Rossi who proceeded on the basis of his belief being fact. I have no idea on what basis you proceed, other than it not involving much in the way of logical argument.

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