Track Limits

michaelm · Sep 12, 2016

Jumkie said:
Race Direction immediately took action on Zarco despite it being a racing incident of a common variety. Since it was near the end of the race they issued a time penalty equivalent to a ride through because there wasn't enough time for the rider to serve the penalty in real time (the rider gets several laps before they must serve a penalty notice). Contrast this to Rossi who caused a crash in a rare if ever seen deliberate maneuver to eliminate a fellow competitor. Looking over several times to gage and adjust his position to facilitate the victim's balance and eventual crash. It was early in the race (as Rossi's supporters have pointed out) and there was ample time to issue a ride through penalty. Race Direction refused to take action in real time (and admitted the decision was based on Rossi being the points leader, interestingly so was Zarco). Rossi was allowed to feature on the podium, celebrating with a trophy to mark the occasion, and keep his points. Contrast this with Zarco, a far less egregious maneuver that was not antithetical to good faith competition, yet he was issued a penalty that resulted in zero points with immediate effect.

The double standard of how Race Direction treated these two incidents is a scandalous reminder of how Rossi's treatment is astonishingly exceptional!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I have to say Jumkie I believe Dorna probably encourages (at least) decisions such as this which keep championships alive independently of whether Rossi is involved. I wonder whether Lorenzo would have got the same penalty for the same offence as MM did at PI 2013 for instance, since this would have ended the championship, while they penalised MM who was their golden boy at the time with some alacrity, which meant the championship stayed alive for the last race. Even though I was going for Lorenzo then I thought MM's penalty was ridiculous.

I also think Ezy is very happy with this year's Michelins regardless of whether they particularly suit Rossi, because the introduction of the Michelins appears to have resulted in more competitiveness across the field and obviously a wider variety of winners. As something of a traditionalist the institution of what has basically been a tyre lottery at times based on substandard tyres is not the way to achieve this, but I am sure F1 and NASCAR rather than golden age 500 GP bike racing are what Ezy seeks to emulate.

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2016

Question for the forum. In light of Zarco's penalty, if Lorenzo doesn't take evasive action and continued his trajectory (like Lowes who refused to concede) and Lorenzo crashes, would Race Direction have issued a ride through penalty to Rossi at Misano?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

danski · Sep 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Question for the forum. In light of Zarco's penalty, if Lorenzo doesn't take evasive action and continued his trajectory (like Lowes who refused to concede) and Lorenzo crashes, would Race Direction have issued a ride through penalty to Rossi at Misano?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

No, Rossi was clearly ahead and the corner was his.

Richy56 · Sep 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Question for the forum. In light of Zarco's penalty, if Lorenzo doesn't take evasive action and continued his trajectory (like Lowes who refused to concede) and Lorenzo crashes, would Race Direction have issued a ride through penalty to Rossi at Misano?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Would they ....., cos its Rossi. The guy got away "lightly" from the most disgraceful incident in bike racing history last yr, he is untouchable from RD.

What would be interesting is the consequence of zarcos penalty and the example it gives, now RD have set a precedent. Lorenzos natural reaction is to stand the bike up. Other riders knowing that if they go down a penalty might occur to the other rider if they fall off (take Marquez overtaking Rossi for example) may choose to turn in from now on .........

Jumkie · Sep 13, 2016

Richy56 said:
Other riders knowing that if they go down a penalty might occur to the other rider if they fall off (take Marquez overtaking Rossi for example) may choose to turn in from now on .........

Lorenzo should have gone straight through the run off making zero attempt to make the turn and emerged in front of Rossi...after all, isn't what Race Direction decided was ok at Assen last year?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Richy56 · Sep 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Lorenzo should have gone straight through the run off making zero attempt to make the turn and emerged in front of Rossi...after all, isn't what Race Direction decided was ok at Assen last year?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I was going to make that point, but I have already expressed my views on that incident at assen several times

It will happen if not this year another. I can see Marquez making a move on Rossi and Rossi turning in hitting him and going down and then winging to the world, Marquez gets penalised, when in reality it could have been avoided.

Imagine the up roar last yr if the final chicane at assen was not such a favourable layout. I.e like Jerez

danski · Sep 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Lorenzo should have gone straight through the run off making zero attempt to make the turn and emerged in front of Rossi...after all, isn't what Race Direction decided was ok at Assen last year?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Different corner, not the same point in the race and rider in front has preference always, no case.

Richy56 · Sep 13, 2016

Daniboy said:
Different corner, not the same point in the race and rider in front has preference always, no case.

so what your saying if Lorenzo had let the brake off to keep his front wheel in front, collided with Rossi and either went down or gone straight on and gained an advantage that's ok. Mm sounds very similar to assen to me

danski · Sep 13, 2016

Richy56 said:
so what your saying if Lorenzo had let the brake off to keep his front wheel in front, collided with Rossi and either went down or gone straight on and gained an advantage that's ok. Mm sounds very similar to assen to me

If Lorenzo had kept his brake off he would be in the next stand , he was never in front at any point in that corner.

povol · Sep 13, 2016

I normally dont dont respond like this, but you are full of ..... You can square off any corner and claim i was ahead, its was my corner. To say his entry to that corner was unconventional is an understatement.

Gaz · Sep 13, 2016

Daniboy said:
If Lorenzo had kept his brake off he would be in the next stand , he was never in front at any point in that corner.

So why did Rossi have to overtake if Lorenzo was never in front in the corner?

Further, why then does Rossi call it an overtake or pass if he was always in front?

#22 · Sep 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Question for the forum. In light of Zarco's penalty, if Lorenzo doesn't take evasive action and continued his trajectory (like Lowes who refused to concede) and Lorenzo crashes, would Race Direction have issued a ride through penalty to Rossi at Misano?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I'd say no. He didn't get a ride through last yr so wouldn't now.

Daniboy said:
Different corner, not the same point in the race and rider in front has preference always, no case.

No, As Povol has already pointed out. I personally have no issue with the move but your assertion that Rossi was well in front before even turning in is wrong.

danski · Sep 14, 2016

#22 said:
I'd say no. He didn't get a ride through last yr so wouldn't now.

No, As Povol has already pointed out. I personally have no issue with the move but your assertion that Rossi was well in front before even turning in is wrong.

Didn't say he was well in front and in the video you can see that in the very first part of the corner he is behind but closing fast and ahead well before Lorenzo has to adjust his line.

kenup283 · Sep 16, 2016

Richy56 said:
Define a few times if you know the rules

Rules make no mention of any allowance for multiple vs one time nor do they even discuss any relevance to whether an advantage was gained or not. Below is the exact wording.

"a change of position, resulting from a yellow flag or track limits violation."

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/59353/no_cache/1/
Scroll down to page 215.

The situation with Vinales was rubbish. He was trailing Dovi and although applying pressure to him, he did not pass him until a completely differnt part of the track. The comentators words on the motogp feed ended in "fair enough" regarding his bieng directed to drop back a position. A ruling which wasn't given until at least 8 laps after.

Rossi was leading Pedrosa, and after bieng caught up for each lap that Pedrosa was immediately behind him applying the pressure, Rossi ran onto the red paint passed the same kerb as Vinales.

In one of those times he clipped the grass. Commentators remark in response to what could undeniably be seen as going over the kerb and to the grass past edge of the track was "that could've been borderline whether Rossi exceeded the track limits"

Both cases the riders went over the track limits and rejoined in the same positions they left.

This is not really that big of a deal in comparison to riders who completely blow the corner and use the runoff to rejoin later.

However in those cases the rider, by example of what has and has not been penalized, seem to be treated differently and they are allowed to come back in at the same position they left the track without penalty.

The most aggregious case this past weekend had to be Luthi at the start of Moto2.

Overcooked the first turn by a mile, went from 6th to 3rd in one corner which he did not complete, and there after never gave back a place nor was he penalized.

Eventually he finished back to 6th where he started but there was a total lack of care for cutting corners in comparison to barley running a nats ... wide and getting back on exactly in same postion from where you left off.

So in practice riders are not discouraged from using the runoff to cut corners but they are discouraged from marginally going past the kerbs. Even though both fit the same rule book definition of exceeding track limits for which a singular violation would result in a change in position same as passing under a yellow flag.

kenup283 · Sep 16, 2016

#22 said:
I'd say no. He didn't get a ride through last yr so wouldn't now.

Important here is to recognize that this year things are very differnt to recent years before regarding penalizing of riders.

First and foremost the Race Director who previously assigned penalties for irresponsible ridding has now for 2016 only been declared competent to rule on matters of fact.

To handle such issues of judgement only the panel of Stewards Introduced for this year can to make such calls and apply penalty for aggressive or irresponsible ridding.

In practice the major diffence is that spot penalties have begun to be applied again rather than an accumulation of points that then leads to a penalty.

So we cannot compare what was and what is now.

Note the points system still exists but I am glad that it is in the form of plurality of penalties, meaning in addition to the spot action.

For example we all know Iannone had to start at back of grid for running into Lorenzo the race before, however you may not know that he was also given 3 points in addition to that penalty.

So not only did Iannone start from back he still carries the 3 points and if 10 is reached then he's DQ'd for the next race. If we were to make comparisons then you'd immediatly see who he did double time to what Rossi got for Malasia. But as I said two diffent systems of enforcement now.

We do not know if Zarco will also be given points as the latest published penalty point summary is still lagging a bit but you can see more or less where they are.

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/59354/no_cache/1/

GeniusAtTwerk · Sep 17, 2016

#22 said:
Yes, technically. However the point is why did Zarco get a ridethrough almost immediately when Rossi did not. Both actions resulted in a rider crashing and Rossi's was worse as it was premeditated.

Maybe because RD stated Marquez' was riding "to cause trouble" or however they stated it, in Sepang.

Not that I strongly agree with Zarcos penalty either, these things are always difficult to judge. IMO the points system would be good if used consistently.

Gaz · Sep 17, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Not that I strongly agree with Zarcos penalty either, these things are always difficult to judge. IMO the points system would be good if used consistently.

Having been in towers and race control (not MGP) it is an extremely difficult job to respond to calls of infractions, be they an overtake under yellow or a more severe case of dangerous/negligence on the track or off as bias and preconceptions can come into it, even though one in the decision making role should be unbiased.

IMO with regards to the points system, I am not a major fan but do struggle to see or offer a better solution.

I have no issue with points for minor infractions but for major infractions there needs to be a more punitive system but all systems need consistency and it is here where, like all 'referee' style of systems that an issue will occur as many incidents that look the same, are not when investigated. Not going into the Rossi or Zarco incidents but I have seen incidents that should be punished far more harshly than they were, and then seen further incidents and wonder what the punishment would have been were different riders involved.

To me, all fans want and riders deserve is consistent application of rules and punishment but one of the larger issues is that each year DORNA change the systems in some way so you cannot use prior year as precedents when systems change and thus year on year the punishments seem inequitable.

No system is perfect except in our own minds.

Richy56 · Sep 17, 2016

kenup283 said:
Rules make no mention of any allowance for multiple vs one time nor do they even discuss any relevance to whether an advantage was gained or not. Below is the exact wording.

"a change of position, resulting from a yellow flag or track limits violation."

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/59353/no_cache/1/
Scroll down to page 215.

The situation with Vinales was rubbish. He was trailing Dovi and although applying pressure to him, he did not pass him until a completely differnt part of the track. The comentators words on the motogp feed ended in "fair enough" regarding his bieng directed to drop back a position. A ruling which wasn't given until at least 8 laps after.

Rossi was leading Pedrosa, and after bieng caught up for each lap that Pedrosa was immediately behind him applying the pressure, Rossi ran onto the red paint passed the same kerb as Vinales.

In one of those times he clipped the grass. Commentators remark in response to what could undeniably be seen as going over the kerb and to the grass past edge of the track was "that could've been borderline whether Rossi exceeded the track limits"

Both cases the riders went over the track limits and rejoined in the same positions they left.

This is not really that big of a deal in comparison to riders who completely blow the corner and use the runoff to rejoin later.

However in those cases the rider, by example of what has and has not been penalized, seem to be treated differently and they are allowed to come back in at the same position they left the track without penalty.

The most aggregious case this past weekend had to be Luthi at the start of Moto2.

Overcooked the first turn by a mile, went from 6th to 3rd in one corner which he did not complete, and there after never gave back a place nor was he penalized.

Eventually he finished back to 6th where he started but there was a total lack of care for cutting corners in comparison to barley running a nats ... wide and getting back on exactly in same postion from where you left off.

So in practice riders are not discouraged from using the runoff to cut corners but they are discouraged from marginally going past the kerbs. Even though both fit the same rule book definition of exceeding track limits for which a singular violation would result in a change in position same as passing under a yellow flag.

Brill post, thanks. Just shows rules not clear cut and therefore up to RD for the incident in question during a race. Vinales was penalised, Rossi was not..........Rossi s hypocricity spreads again into RD.

Commentators full of .... also.

p4p1 · Sep 17, 2016

GeniusAtTwerk said:
Maybe because RD stated Marquez' was riding "to cause trouble" or however they stated it, in Sepang.

Not that I strongly agree with Zarcos penalty either, these things are always difficult to judge. IMO the points system would be good if used consistently.

But couldn't prove it, despite all the evidence that was looked at. It was nothing more than a ploy to keep Rossis championship alive and to try and shift the blame. You think if they looked at the data and it was obvious they wouldn't have said we proved Marquez was ....... with Rossi but he didn't break any rules? Instead Webb just said that he believed didn't believe Marquezs explanation but believed Rossis.

AJV80 · Sep 17, 2016

I'm still undecided whether track limits are a good thing or not. I believe they must be clearly defined and easily identified for all riders.

It would ruin the racing if riders where being penalised for accidentally encroaching these boundaries if only to avoid crashing from a genuine mistake.

They could lay additional gravel traps to boundary these track limits to ensure riders don't use them but all that would do is create more injuries. Not a good idea.

I find MotoGP much more exciting and raw racing compared to F1, which I find far to technical in terms of rules and penalties imposed. I would hate for rules to be introduced that are not clear cut and have riders results disqualified based on ambiguous technicalities.

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Track Limits

michaelm

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danski

Richy56

Jumkie

Richy56

danski

Richy56

danski

povol

Gaz

#22

danski

kenup283

kenup283

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Gaz

Richy56

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