Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
here are a couple more moves... Do these exceed track limits?
No neither of them, In the first pic they both went wide on the exit resulting in time loss not a time advantage so there was no gain.
In the second pic they are actually on the painted area between the track and pit lane exit so the white line furthest away is track limits however I do believe if they strayed over the painted area onto pit lane exit then that should be deemed as a dangerous move and punished accordingly.
Imo the white lines mean .... in bike racing UNLESS an advantage is made. The kerbs are the track so cutting the corner using the kerb is ok.
Assen 2015 is the prime example. Rossi should have been penalised, Marquez made the corner, so could he.
Assen 2015 is the prime example. Rossi should have been penalised, Marquez made the corner, so could he.
Joined Oct 2015
2K Posts | 827+
Texas
Rossi should have been penalized for getting hit by Marc and having to stand the bike up into the gravel? Maybe you should rewatch the incident if you think Marquez made the corner... he also crossed the white line even after he used Rossi's bike as a berm.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Acceptable kerbs:
If the kerbs were still raised the way they were 40 years ago, that would be more than acceptable. Track limits are defined properly. Outside is either grass, gravel, or armco. It's insane that drivers and riders should be able to redefine where the proper boundaries are, or that circuits should be designed with what amounts to improper boundaries.
Rossi turned in on Marc and gained an advantage as a result due to the track layout.
He will do that .... everyday at his ranch.
Joined Oct 2015
2K Posts | 827+
Texas
The rider in front (Rossi) has preference to choose his line. Rossi turned in at his normal point to properly execute the chicane. You're suggesting Rossi should have not attempted to properly execute the chicane in order to leave the door open for the rider behind him (Marc) to attempt a dive bomb pass.
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
here are a couple more moves... Do these exceed track limits?
As Lil Red has said they lost time so yes. Yes they exceed the track limits but in the case of the Ducati's it was a one off incident and they needed the extra room to avoid crashing after touching. That's what the run off areas are for, not to consistently use as a racing line. If you look at the image below, the black rubber lines show that the McLaren isn't running wide as a one off, but that is the consistent racing line.
Acceptable kerbs:
If the kerbs were still raised the way they were 40 years ago, that would be more than acceptable. Track limits are defined properly. Outside is either grass, gravel, or armco. It's insane that drivers and riders should be able to redefine where the proper boundaries are, or that circuits should be designed with what amounts to improper boundaries.
Agreed. The kerbs were originally to allow a driver a small margin of error if a mistake was made, now it seems like they are just used to ramp over to go outside of the track for more speed.
kerbs are there to preserve the pavement at the track edge. Without them your surface will begin to deteriorate over time.
Tall kerbs are a safety risk for motorcycle racing and the FIM Standards for Circuits has very precise details for low profile kerbs for motorcycle racing.
The FIM also goes further to define and require paved space free from gravel beyond the kerbs called verges. The purpose to allow the riders to use the entire width of the circuit safely. In other words an endorsement that kerbs are part of the track.
In Formula 1 kerbs are not prescribed and the edge is the white line. So the issue is circuits that want an FIM sanctioned bike race will have motorcycle kerbs. This then leaves them open for the taking by the car guys. Honestly so what.
My purpose with the examples of passing is that these situations will now be called into question as MotoGP rules which now have provison for giving back position for exceeding track limits. Something that was not the befire in those cases above and we have managed to do without for decades.
Many of these pases are highlight real stuff and now we will have a panel of stewards, something motorcycle racing also never needed before, debating and who can invalidate them at their discretion.
There are a couple examples for bikes where running past the kerbs lap after lap would be benefial but not very many.
Tall kerbs are a safety risk for motorcycle racing and the FIM Standards for Circuits has very precise details for low profile kerbs for motorcycle racing.
The FIM also goes further to define and require paved space free from gravel beyond the kerbs called verges. The purpose to allow the riders to use the entire width of the circuit safely. In other words an endorsement that kerbs are part of the track.
In Formula 1 kerbs are not prescribed and the edge is the white line. So the issue is circuits that want an FIM sanctioned bike race will have motorcycle kerbs. This then leaves them open for the taking by the car guys. Honestly so what.
My purpose with the examples of passing is that these situations will now be called into question as MotoGP rules which now have provison for giving back position for exceeding track limits. Something that was not the befire in those cases above and we have managed to do without for decades.
Many of these pases are highlight real stuff and now we will have a panel of stewards, something motorcycle racing also never needed before, debating and who can invalidate them at their discretion.
There are a couple examples for bikes where running past the kerbs lap after lap would be benefial but not very many.
Joined Nov 2015
242 Posts | 144+
Australia
It will be interesting to see what happens if someone at the front exceeds the track limits in the race and whether they do anything.
There were several times at Austria on the exit of the last corner in moto 3 where bikes were exceeding the track limits and they did jack .....
There were several times at Austria on the exit of the last corner in moto 3 where bikes were exceeding the track limits and they did jack .....
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
How prescient was this thread #22 - kudos to you sir.
I recall only paying full attention to Valentino when he secured his first win twenty years ago at this circuit. Not simply because because he was victor, but given the width of the track, his wide sweeping lines struck me as so unorthodox and something that I'd never really noticed before in the class to that extent. Being Brno, the effect was greatly emphasised and exaggerated. Several riders evoked this since and I remember citing Brno 1996 when I first saw Scotty ride his 125 debut at Qatar. Marquez was the same.
Interesting to see then that Fabio Quartararo who I think employs a very similar style is constantly violating track limits now that they are enforcing them. Last year at Misano in particular and Valencia from memory, and this year at COTA, Red Bull Ring and at Brno, which as I say, is really conducive to the style in spite of the width of the circuit, where his transgressions this weekend were something ridiculous like the high teens.
He really needs to adapt his style because it's costing him and his team who are no longer concealing their frustration with their rider. Still, there are worse career moves to be made this weekend. After all, could have twatted your team boss and best mate of arguably the most famous influential racer of all time.
EDIT: Ironic that RD have been so draconian over enforcing track limits of late when Crutchlow and Luthi both had their machines hurled over the catch fence onto the perimeter road in exactly the same spot (Turn 11) that Vale deposited his M1 on the car roof of a photographer last year.
I recall only paying full attention to Valentino when he secured his first win twenty years ago at this circuit. Not simply because because he was victor, but given the width of the track, his wide sweeping lines struck me as so unorthodox and something that I'd never really noticed before in the class to that extent. Being Brno, the effect was greatly emphasised and exaggerated. Several riders evoked this since and I remember citing Brno 1996 when I first saw Scotty ride his 125 debut at Qatar. Marquez was the same.
Interesting to see then that Fabio Quartararo who I think employs a very similar style is constantly violating track limits now that they are enforcing them. Last year at Misano in particular and Valencia from memory, and this year at COTA, Red Bull Ring and at Brno, which as I say, is really conducive to the style in spite of the width of the circuit, where his transgressions this weekend were something ridiculous like the high teens.
He really needs to adapt his style because it's costing him and his team who are no longer concealing their frustration with their rider. Still, there are worse career moves to be made this weekend. After all, could have twatted your team boss and best mate of arguably the most famous influential racer of all time.
EDIT: Ironic that RD have been so draconian over enforcing track limits of late when Crutchlow and Luthi both had their machines hurled over the catch fence onto the perimeter road in exactly the same spot (Turn 11) that Vale deposited his M1 on the car roof of a photographer last year.
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Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Speaking of exceeding track limits, so it's been decided the white line means .... all, and the rumble strip is effectively part of the racing surface; how then did Race Direction decide Zarco had made a mistake going inside of Lowes? If we've decided the rumble strip is part of the racing surface, then Zarco was simply in his right going for the "gap" left open by Lowes. My point being, if the outside of a turn can be used to the edge of the rumble strip past the white line, why isn't the inside margin equally fair game?
If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
Surely the penalty was because Zarco completely botched the passing attempt and proceeded to push Lowes completely outside the track resulting in him crashing, not because he went over the rumble strip. He would've gotten the penalty even had he taken a more normal line, with the same end result.
But crashing someone out doesn't get you a ride through or dq as the precedent has been set.
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