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Track Limits

#22

#22

Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
I happened to stumble across this interview on Youtube this morning, and decided to debate is here as this is the most level headed place I know when it comes to racing rules. For the record, I side with Martin Brundle. Track limits are there for a reason and if we start to let drivers 'decide the best line' through a corner as Christian Horner suggests, where do we end up? As I have said before, these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and they can't stick to track limits? They've already shown they cannot obey yellow flags (as per Jules Bianchi' accident) and now it appears they can't obey track limits:

Here is the interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3qOpI_3yuw

Horner makes a point that some of the issue is tracks being suitable for F1 AND MotoGP. However, below is an example from the 2003 Austrian GP when drivers just invented their new line through turn 1. The regulations state the white line indicates the track limit:



You don't see MotoGP riders running way out into the runoff zone, so why cannot F1 drivers keep within the lines? Also, if drivers are then allowed to use significant areas of the runoff as the 'racing line', then what happens in an accident? There will be no runoff because the cars are closer to the wall, then they'll extend the runoff even further. Again, where does it end?
 
I think there needs to be some sort of penalty for deliberately going outside the track limits. The V8 Supercars in Oz had a problem with drivers cutting corners & chicanes, so their solution was a transponder in the centre of the car & a transponder in the track. When a car cut a corner, the transponder sent a signal to race control registering a strike against that car. Third strike was a drive through penalty. Teams had access to the data & could inform their drivers how many srtikes they had, and there was no one else to blame except the driver. Marshalls had no say, it was purely electronic & it soon solved the corner cutting real quick.
 
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Prior to this year the concept of track limits did not appear in MotoGP rulebook.

Now the requirement is there to give up a position if track limits are exceeded during race or cancel laptime during practice.

But there is no definition of what track limits are. They are certainly not defined by the white line, as riders exceed those in every turn of every lap just by using the kerbs.

Rather its more a common sense thing to counter when a rider blows a braking zone and uses the paved run off to rejoin latter on right where they left off. Somthing that had been occurring regular basis. The interpretation has been that if you lost at least one place in the process then it's penalty already served.

To me the point Horner was after sounded more like if the circuits / organizers want to extend the paved runoff areas to enable the show to go on in the event of a minor mistake then expect them to get used when it suits the drivers too. Basically a you can't have your cake and eat it too kind of rebutle.

He is not talking about cutting chicanes. Cutting chicanes is another matter alltoghether but we've seen that at Laguna Seca in the corkscrew as well without penalty on a couple of occasions.
 
Agreed. Not sure why they bother with a white line round the outside that they call the track limit. They shouldn't be allowed over that white line. Not a bit of a tyre, never mind the whole car plus 20cm - really?! Who thought of that - a line needs drawing somewhere so they draw a line then say but the real line is that line plus a car plus 20cm.

In Monaco the track limits are pretty harsh to say the least. Either have a rule about track limits or don't. As you say, where does it end?

The last F1 but one - some of the corners had track limits (plus car, plus 20cm) that must be obeyed (well, twice for free, three times for a penalty) and some of them didn't...

F1 seem a bit up in the air this year. New qualifying, didn't work, revert to old. New radio rules, rightly shown up to be ridiculous, revert to old. And really? This is the top of the game?
 
It is all BS in so many ways as track limits are the edge of where a rider/driver will go to achieve that advantage that they so seek on the track.

As has been mentioned, Aussie Taxi racing has a good system but it is also quite lenient in some regards but it does take into account situations where a car is forced to 'cut' in the event of an accident or incident that resulted in the 'cut' being due to evasive action.

In effect, it works and actually works very well but I could not see the same system working within a motorcycle race but I would rather see a system whereby if the rider exceeds the defined track limits (and this would to be clearly defined in writing and easily visual), then the rider must rejoin the race track using a specific 'gateway'. If memory serves right, WSBK have used a similar system (that of the gateway) at Monza I think it may have been as a slowdown/punishment for riders who out-braked themselves.

The idea of the gateway would be that the rider must rejoin through the defined area as the idea is that they must slow to get to the area and thus are penalised for their off track excursion. Failure to use the gateway could result in an additional time penalty that is displayed at the start/finish and where the time penalty is sufficient, riders will ride within the track limits as defined.
 
F1 drivers are trying to carry as much speed as they can through a corner, and the wider they can run, the better. Given they are on 4-wheels rather than 2, they don't have to deal with some of the nuances that the GP bikes do when running on the curbs. GP riders still do try and push the track boundaries somewhat, albeit nowhere near as blatantly as F1 has. The larger problem with F1's track limits issue is that it's been enforced rather lackadaisically for a number of years and has seen no real consistency on the issue to date. Race Direction waited far too long to do anything...and when they finally did do something, it lasted all of one race with the sensors. It's a joke. The teams have far too much input into the rules.
 
The track limits in f1 is 20 centimeters. After that u will start to get warnings. I dunno if 3 is the limit, but if u exceed the amount of warnings given to u, u will get penalized in f1. But f1 is ......... Changing rules every god damn year.. Motogp have barely had any changes since it began in 2002..
 
imunderandoverit said:
The track limits in f1 is 20 centimeters. After that u will start to get warnings. I dunno if 3 is the limit, but if u exceed the amount of warnings given to u, u will get penalized in f1. But f1 is ......... Changing rules every god damn year.. Motogp have barely had any changes since it began in 2002..
Click to expand...

20cm?

No it's not.

Hockenheim yesterday saw guys running clear off the tarmac onto the curbs.
 
JPSLotus said:
20cm?

No it's not.

Hockenheim yesterday saw guys running clear off the tarmac onto the curbs.
Click to expand...

In the corners they enforce track limits, it's exceeded if the whole car plus 20cm beyond the white line. It's just that only some corners are designated as those which they will enforce track limits. So if they go very wide on one of the other corners, it's no problem as far as track limits are concerned.
 
JPSLotus said:
20cm?

No it's not.

Hockenheim yesterday saw guys running clear off the tarmac onto the curbs.
Click to expand...


It is 20 cm. But the 1st corner at tracks like hockenheim, a1 ring, melbourne and so on are made for driving wide and fast..
 
imunderandoverit said:
It is 20 cm. But the 1st corner at tracks like hockenheim, a1 ring, melbourne and so on are made for driving wide and fast..
Click to expand...

No they aren't, they have the same track limits as the rest of the corners on tracks across the world. The problem is, as JPS has said, is that the RULES have not been enforced.

Look at the image below. The exit kerb is the outer limits of the track. It is supposed to be a leeway for if you make a mistake you have some room for correction. Outside the kerb is run off designed to slow cars down before they hit the barriers. If drivers start using the 'full width' of the corner as you like to say, so running out to the red section on the right in the picture below you have taken a good 30ft of distance away between the 'corner' and the barrier. Then drivers will complain the barriers are too close and need to be moved away. It's ridiculous.

perez-red-bull-ring-2015.jpg
 
Thats not really the same as running metres over the edge of the track on the exit. There was a god example of Max Verstappen in Germany but the picture seems to have mysteriously disappeared from the internet.

ETA: Found a similar one, but Verstappen was out wider still:

http://www.crash.net/f1/large_picture/1477276.html
 
Keep in mind too, they set the cars up based on the drivers exceeding the track limits. You don't just consistently run off the circuit without it being factored into the suspension set up and engine mapping.
 
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Both were wrong in my opinion, for the overtaking rider went off the track to gain an advantage. Michael Schumacher was penalised for this in 2003:

michael schumacher jarno trulli 2003

You shouldn't be allowed to complete a pass by going off the circuit.
 
In Marquezs case (IIRC) Rossi pushed him out very wide rather than Marquez choosing to go there. He had gotten around the outside of Rossi to overtake and was just in front and Rossi didn't give him room to go anywhere else.
 
I remember rewatching the race after the sepang incident and realised that Rossi was not quite as friendly with Marquez as I thought he was early on.
 

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