Tissot Australian Grand Prix 2013

chopperman

3646631382313024

Bottom line for me was that MM was trying to jump JL using a pit stop strategy a la F1.


 


+1, that is my thinking.

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Exactly. 


It's hard to tell how coordinated HRC was this weekend, but pitting Pedrobot a lap early and MarcMurder a lap late could be viewed as a team-level attempt to 'squeeze' Lorenzo.  Not a bad idea in itself.... 

chopperman

3646651382313274

I've not seen the memo sent to the teams with the rules. maybe the CRT rules differed in that regard ?  Im not sure whether the CRT had the tyre safety issue. If not i see no reason why they would have to do any more than a stop outside the garage and go. Prototype had to change bikes for a safety reason.

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I'm more drawing attention to the foolishness of the rules re the 2 bikes scenario.


 


The on-the-run rules prescribed which tyres both the CRT and Factory/Sat bikes had to use - the respective hard compound in both cases. So, as insider wrote above, it's reasonable to assume that both classes had issues.

As predicted, Kroppo has posted the official Motomatters apology for MarcMurder's actions:


http://motomatters.com/analysis/2013/10/20/2013_phillip_island_motogp_sunday_round_.html  


 


Help, JumkieMan, HELP!


Only your Super Powers can save us now! 


 


 


 


 

Dr No

3646701382314154

I'm more drawing attention to the foolishness of the rules re the 2 bikes scenario.


 


The on-the-run rules prescribed which tyres both the CRT and Factory/Sat bikes had to use - the respective hard compound in both cases. So, as insider wrote above, it's reasonable to assume that both classes had issues.

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Quite possibly but nothing in the media about it. I would think though that if it were a 1 bike team they would of had a special dispensation in the bike change rule, or would have been prevented from starting the race due to safety.

chopperman

3646731382314644

Quite possibly but nothing in the media about it. I would think though that if it were a 1 bike team they would of had a special dispensation in the bike change rule, or would have been prevented from starting the race due to safety.

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I think we're crossing wires here. My comment was intended to be a completely flippant comment on the crapness of the rules.

chopperman

3646601382312774

You're not being judged. Marquez is !  I thought you were the prosecutor in this case. lol

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Hey Im a FNG ( ...... new guy) on Powerslide. Im on trial as well.

Geonerd

3646721382314363

As predicted, Kroppo has posted the official Motomatters apology for MarcMurder's actions:


http://motomatters.com/analysis/2013/10/20/2013_phillip_island_motogp_sunday_round_.html  


 


Help, JumkieMan, HELP!


Only your Super Powers can save us now! 

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Oh dear.


My favourite bit:


 


Differences in style were also interesting to note. Both Lorenzo and Pedrosa favored the vault, jumping off the number one bike and landing on both feet, before leaping onto the second bike. Marquez went with the spin, swinging his left leg over the bike and then pivoting on his right foot, turning 360° until he was facing the right way to leap onto his second bike. It was elegant, efficient and imaginative

his take on the contact with Lorenzo left me scratching my head...Kropo CAN'T really think that way can he?

I don't understand the meltdown over this weekend. During the 990 era, the manufacturers were always gambling with compounds, and tire failure was common. Tires chunked. Tires went lap record pace then dropped off rapidly. Before the engine rules, it wasn't uncommon for an engine to go bang during the race   Sunday's race was an extreme example of the tires falling apart, but the pit stop prevented the tires from being more dangerous than during the tire war. As Krop pointed out, the one lamentable miscalculation was extending the pit lane speed limit area, which may have been less safe for the riders.


 


The Marquez DQ doesn't have anything to do with Dorna or the authenticity of the contest. Instead, it shows that HRC is ridiculous. They basically have one hand on the championship, but Marquez' engineers and crew were more interested to see if they could game the impromptu regulations. The work so hard to be clever, they end up doing stupid things, which is a perfect microcosm for their management of MotoGP. Every year they have one hand on the championship, and they spend their time tinkering with the tech regs in the MSMA meetings. This is exactly what Doohan complained about during his career. Bored engineers = danger.


 


The Marquez-Lorenzo scuff up was also no big deal. Lorenzo made a hard pass. The same exact thing could have happened if Marquez rear-wheel came unstuck on a regular lap. Which rider is to blame? Neither. Dorna went nanny-state and unintended consequences reared their ugly head. For future reference: If pit stops: do not extend pit speed limit area

Geonerd

3646721382314363

As predicted, Kroppo has posted the official Motomatters apology for MarcMurder's actions:


http://motomatters.com/analysis/2013/10/20/2013_phillip_island_motogp_sunday_round_.html  


 


Help, JumkieMan, HELP!


Only your Super Powers can save us now! 

Click to expand...

 


What I found interesting in the write-up is the assertion that Honda knew they were pushing the rules by keeping Marc out for an extra lap, but did so anyway, thinking they could game the system. If that's true, it reveals in HRC either incredible arrogance (very likely) or extreme idiocy (not as likely, but still possible). You would think that Honda would cross every T and dot every I this close to winning a championship, but if they intentionally played with safety rules like this, it shows the extent to which they think they control MotoGP. 

mylexicon

3646841382319605

I don't understand the meltdown over this weekend. During the 990 era, the manufacturers were always gambling with compounds, and tire failure was common. Tires chunked. Tires went lap record pace then dropped off rapidly. Before the engine rules, it wasn't uncommon for an engine to go bang during the race   Sunday's race was an extreme example of the tires falling apart, but the pit stop prevented the tires from being more dangerous than during the tire war. As Krop pointed out, the one lamentable miscalculation was extending the pit lane speed limit area, which may have been less safe for the riders.


 


The Marquez DQ doesn't have anything to do with Dorna or the authenticity of the contest. Instead, it shows that HRC is ridiculous. They basically have one hand on the championship, but Marquez' engineers and crew were more interested to see if they could game the impromptu regulations. The work so hard to be clever, they end up doing stupid things, which is a perfect microcosm for their management of MotoGP. Every year they have one hand on the championship, and they spend their time tinkering with the tech regs in the MSMA meetings. This is exactly what Doohan complained about during his career. Bored engineers = danger.


 


The Marquez-Lorenzo scuff up was also no big deal. Lorenzo made a hard pass. The same exact thing could have happened if Marquez rear-wheel came unstuck on a regular lap. Which rider is to blame? Neither. Dorna went nanny-state and unintended consequences reared their ugly head. For future reference: If pit stops: do not extend pit speed limit area

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The 19 lapper was making the best of a ludricrous and embarrassing situation. The Moto2 situation was worse. Australian SuperDuperBikes run Dunlops...they really got caught out.


 


Sorry, Lex, but my belief, regardless of Marquez and HRC's pronouncements, is that Marquez made a stupid mistake. Brain fade. There was no advantage to continue on that tyre, it was already playing up when Lorenzo pitted. He should/could have followed Jorge in, performed an "elegant, efficient and imaginative" pirouette-bike-change and beaten him out of the pits.


BTW I watched that lap from the inside of MG, from which you can see the pit-entry, when we saw Marquez continuing through T12, we just laughed. We picked it there and then. Marquez ...... up.


 


The Marquez scuff up was no big deal? There's not much scope to change lines through T1, you roll in there pretty hot. Sphincter pucker corner (for me...) Lorenzo was on a racing line. Marquez was on a rejoin-the-race line. That could've been very, very messy.  And if it is "50/50", just think of this: Who was in a better position to avoid contact?


 


 


But the main culprit (which kinda contradicts my earlier statement on the 19-lapper) is the foolishness of allowing cold bikes to re-enter the track from the PI pit lane. It's a goat-track of asphalt that puts you into T1. Great idea. 




 

rezonator636

3646861382319970

What I found interesting in the write-up is the assertion that Honda knew they were pushing the rules by keeping Marc out for an extra lap, but did so anyway, thinking they could game the system. If that's true, it reveals in HRC either incredible arrogance (very likely) or extreme idiocy (not as likely, but still possible). You would think that Honda would cross every T and dot every I this close to winning a championship, but if they intentionally played with safety rules like this, it shows the extent to which they think they control MotoGP. 

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What were they gaming? An extra lap on chunking tyres sounds slow.


 


Is there any footage of the Honda pit when Lorenzo came in? If the tyre warmers were still on, then it seems plausible that they intended to keep him out for that extra lap. It'd be telling to see the team reaction as he flashed past down Gardner...

Dr No

3646881382321325

The 19 lapper was making the best of a ludricrous and embarrassing situation. The Moto2 situation was worse. Australian SuperDuperBikes run Dunlops...they really got caught out.


 


Sorry, Lex, but my belief, regardless of Marquez and HRC's pronouncements, is that Marquez made a stupid mistake. Brain fade. There was no advantage to continue on that tyre, it was already playing up when Lorenzo pitted. He should/could have followed Jorge in, performed an "elegant, efficient and imaginative" pirouette-bike-change and beaten him out of the pits.


BTW I watched that lap from the inside of MG, from which you can see the pit-entry, when we saw Marquez continuing through T12, we just laughed. We picked it there and then. Marquez ...... up.


 


The Marquez scuff up was no big deal? There's not much scope to change lines through T1, you roll in there pretty hot. Sphincter pucker corner (for me...) Lorenzo was on a racing line. Marquez was on a rejoin-the-race line. That could've been very, very messy.  And if it is "50/50", just think of this: Who was in a better position to avoid contact?


 


 


But the main culprit (which kinda contradicts my earlier statement on the 19-lapper) is the foolishness of allowing cold bikes to re-enter the track from the PI pit lane. It's a goat-track of asphalt that puts you into T1. Great idea. 




 

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The Moto2/3 TV audience, the Moto2/3 broadcasters, Moto2/3 teams, and the PI patrons should probably be discontent. The MotoGP riders have right to be angry about the cause of the scuff up in Turn 1.


 


However, it seems to me that many casual fans are tailing the paddock and race patrons by expressing outrage about the MotoGP race, which was reasonably well coordinated in the grand scheme. Perhaps my inferences are incorrect, but it seems that people are acting like they've never seen a flag-to-flag race or a close pass in Doohans or a race where the tires fall apart.


 


MotoGP has so many problems that fans often ignore each weekend. When a glitch affects the race itself, though it has little impact on outcome of the premier class race, the forums and blogs are slammed with hyperbolic ranting and rapturous prophecy about GP's demise. I realize it will all blow over, but it seems particularly nuts this time around.

Dr No

3646891382321655

What were they gaming? An extra lap on chunking tyres sounds slow.


 


Is there any footage of the Honda pit when Lorenzo came in? If the tyre warmers were still on, then it seems plausible that they intended to keep him out for that extra lap. It'd be telling to see the team reaction as he flashed past down Gardner...

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It's a stretch (I don't actually believe HRC were trying to game the system, I think MM's team just effed up), but maybe they wanted to keep MM out for that extra lap to build enough of a lead over JL and Pedro that he would come out of the pits in the lead. Even as I write that, though, it sounds ludicrous. 


 


But you're right, an extra lap on chunking tires is definitely slow. Watching Marquez run around on that extra lap, you could see the tire had no life left, and that he was doing everything he could just to keep the machine under control. 

Dr No

3646891382321655

What were they gaming? An extra lap on chunking tyres sounds slow.


 


Is there any footage of the Honda pit when Lorenzo came in? If the tyre warmers were still on, then it seems plausible that they intended to keep him out for that extra lap. It'd be telling to see the team reaction as he flashed past down Gardner...

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Agreed.  You usually gain an 'undercut' by stopping early and blasting around for a lap or three on fresh tires while your competitor is losing time on tired rubber.


 


Good thinking, Doctor!


 


Proof of MM's screwup!  (?)


>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60092457/MotoGP/Warmers.mp4 <<


 


A mechanic is doing something with the front tire blanket.  It's a little hard to tell exactly what, but logically it seems likely that he is putting the front warmer <u>back</u> <u>on</u> after MM failed to stop.  (It seems too early to be removing the blankets for a planned stop next lap, since MM won't be arriving for another ~1.5 minutes.)


 


The rampant confusion shown by the HRC pit crew following Jorge's stop would seem to support the theory that MM flat missed the pit-in signal.  Either that, or Evil Alberto snuck some bogus numbers onto the pit board. 

the-insider

3645121382274768

I have said none of the above, Marquez broke the rules and got disqualified, and I have no issue with that, what I am saying is, none of this would have happened if the rules of the series had not been changed for a complete failure of Bridgestone  to supply a product that is "Fit For Purpose",  Reading your post, what you are saying is, you have a deep seated dislike of Marquez.

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I'll remind you what you said:


 

Very important people are very pissed at Bridgestone, Marquez will obviously cop all the flack as usual, the unpopular Danny will get his usual stick, and Jorge will get his usual praise and support for being the victim, but make no mistake, this is firmly at the feet of the tyre supplier, how on earth can you maintain rider and paddock safety if they all pit on the same lap? you cant, how can you change the race rules during the season? you cant.  A shocking blunder by Bridgestone and an equally big one by race control and Dorna.

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You are blaming Bridgestone for Marc's mistake.  What is there to debate beyond this?  You just said: "make no mistake, this is firmly at the feet of the tyre supplier."  Well, you have indeed made a mistake as Bridestone's solution (other than not running the race itself) was blown by Marc.  Bridgstone was not riding Marc's bike when he ignored/mistook the obligation to swap tires.  Nobody else was riding his bike when he entered the track dangerously.  He did that all on his own.  It doesn't even matter what you believe regarding the pit board communication (though I'm inclined to believe they pressed the issue challenging Race Direction to reaction, which has been soft on the lad, so why not gamble on it happening again?)  And I'll add, the will be right if no further action is taken.  So I await how you will spin away from you blaming Bridgestone for Marc's/his team's blunder.


 


As to your last point, my feelings for the kid are irrelevant.  Argue the point without getting emotional regarding my affection or lack of it for the rider in question.  (For the record, he was the 2nd guy among the contenders that I wanted to lift the title this year.  He seems like he has a bubbly personality, and I actually believe he is unaware of the potential of the consequences for his on track behavior.)  And frankly why should he be, since the majority of people think he hasn't done anything particularly dangerous!  It is up to the authority that governs safe practices to reign him in, and so far they have not made an impression on Marc.  You can assume my feeling for the kid, but I suspect you do it because you prefer to deflect from a reasonable debate.  


 


 


Welcome to the forum btw.

mylexicon

3646841382319605

I don't understand the meltdown over this weekend. During the 990 era, the manufacturers were always gambling with compounds, and tire failure was common. Tires chunked. Tires went lap record pace then dropped off rapidly. Before the engine rules, it wasn't uncommon for an engine to go bang during the race   Sunday's race was an extreme example of the tires falling apart, but the pit stop prevented the tires from being more dangerous than during the tire war. As Krop pointed out, the one lamentable miscalculation was extending the pit lane speed limit area, which may have been less safe for the riders.


 


The Marquez DQ doesn't have anything to do with Dorna or the authenticity of the contest. Instead, it shows that HRC is ridiculous. They basically have one hand on the championship, but Marquez' engineers and crew were more interested to see if they could game the impromptu regulations. The work so hard to be clever, they end up doing stupid things, which is a perfect microcosm for their management of MotoGP. Every year they have one hand on the championship, and they spend their time tinkering with the tech regs in the MSMA meetings. This is exactly what Doohan complained about during his career. Bored engineers = danger.


 


The Marquez-Lorenzo scuff up was also no big deal. Lorenzo made a hard pass. The same exact thing could have happened if Marquez rear-wheel came unstuck on a regular lap. Which rider is to blame? Neither. Dorna went nanny-state and unintended consequences reared their ugly head. For future reference: If pit stops: do not extend pit speed limit area

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Sure, while the DP 1 lap early thing was likely tactical, if only not to be changing 2 bikes at once, MM being 1 lap late may be just a stuff-up, as is common in human endeavour in general and on recent evidence in the HRC pits in  races when a championship is on the line.


 


I don't necessarily absolve Dorna for the tyre debacle though, Bridgestone had been producing tyres for years which had proved rather durable,  and were instructed to make less durable ones to increase the spectacle. It looks like the new carcass design is problematic, as these tyres actually delaminate rather than just losing grip, although the level of grip degradation at PI was perhaps equally potentially catastrophic going on MM's extra lap. As some guy called Valentino said earlier this year, Stoner exhibited some presience when he said (and was criticised for saying) that the new tyres would be questionable in race conditions.

the-insider

3645141382275045

Yes I an fully aware of that, but this was a product problem, happening in a few laps, the race should not have gone ahead because they had no wet bike if it rained as both were set for the dry, and that in itself makes the race void,


 


Did you know that?

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Irrelevant.  They decided to run the race, period.  And when they decided to run the race, they made adjustments so it could be "relatively" safe.  The solution was to execute a particular arrangement during the race format, to be obeyed by  all the riders.  Most everybody understood (and we are not sure Marc & team did NOT understand).  Regardless they failed to comply, NOBODY ELSE'S FAULT!


 


Often there are conditions before a race event that require adjustments, you conceded this point.  I don't think you understand what this means since you insist had they opted for another solution Marc wouldn't have failed to comply.  Not sure how you are not making the connection here, but other potential solution still doesn't excuse Marc for not complying with the solution they instituted for this specific event.

tobalsan

3645901382295400

Huh ? Did I miss something ? Right now Marquez leads with 298pts vs Lorenzo with 280pts. Two remaining races.


If lorenzo wins both, he'll be at 330ts. In this case Marquez HAS to be on the podium twice. 


 


Besides, I wonder what would happen if Lorenzo wins both races and Marquez finishes 3rd twice ? This would mean they'd have exactly 330pts each.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've been over that. I should have just used my fingers instead of trying to model it using excel... typically, I fell down at the most basic - adding 50 to Lorenzo's existing total. Doh!


 


Move along, nothing to see here...

chopperman

3645961382296177

I think its pretty obvious what happened. MM thought he had until the end of lap 10 to pit. He came in at the end of lap 10 as he would not have started lap 11 until he exited pit lane. He did not want to come in at the end of lap 9 because he did not want to pit at the same time as j-lo. He though if he could get some time out of a clear lap he could pit and re-join ahead of lorenzo. A simple ms-understanding of by lap 10 and the end of lap 10.

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If that's the case, why were his crew putting the same lap countdown on his pit board as Lorenzo's crew? They ...... up, end of.