The Untouchables

JPSLotus said:

And yet, here you are responding to supposed insignificance.

Typical Kesh, engages in logical fallacies and red herrings.

Instead of wasting time on a forum that you have deemed to be filled with unintelligent people, and those who bring the place down, why don't you depart to somewhere else?

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I thought perhaps I could steer you towards a more satisfying and fulfilling use of your time - but alas - I was mistaken. If you obstinately insist on pecking away at your computer with the goal of getting the attention of someone with whom you are clearly obsessed, who am I to stop you? Obviously I am your raison d'etre. I woudn't want to deprive you of that.

The forum is not "filled" with people who are unintelligent. Those who fall into that category are limited to about 5 people, and they (despite delusions to the contrary) do not form the basis of the forum. They are merely bumps in the road of life that one must endure whilst searching for meaningful dialog. Great people still pop in from time to time with much to say and their good conversation is worth waiting for.

lol

So anyway Kesh, you can hold onto your delusions that you are somehow a philosopher, and continue repeating the thoughts of others as some sign that you possess a superior intelligence to us here. You remind me a lot of the college students who suddenly decide because they were exposed to some ideas they particularly liked, that it makes them a real worldly individual.

Oh yes, I forgot you don't form the basis of the forum per se, you just are the self-appointed nanny here to tell us who makes your cut, and who does not.

There is Kesh high up in the clouds dispensing wisdom and judgment upon us peons, telling us how we are disappointments, and simply don't understand things.

It's almost...as if, Kesh sees himself as a self-appointed god.

Well lads, perhaps we should be honored to be in the presence of such a magnanimous being.

JPSLotus said:

lol

So anyway Kesh, you can hold onto your delusions that you are somehow a philosopher, and continue repeating the thoughts of others as some sign that you possess a superior intelligence to us here. You remind me a lot of the college students who suddenly decide because they were exposed to some ideas they particularly liked, that it makes them a real worldly individual.

Oh yes, I forgot you don't form the basis of the forum per se, you just are the self-appointed nanny here to tell us who makes your cut, and who does not.

There is Kesh high up in the clouds dispensing wisdom and judgment upon us peons, telling us how we are disappointments, and simply don't understand things.

It's almost...as if, Kesh sees himself as a self-appointed god.

Well lads, perhaps we should be honored to be in the presence of such a magnanimous being.

Click to expand...

I was only making a helpful suggestion. Seems it's you and The Goat (Gang of angry trolls) that are always demanding I ignore all the nonsense they dole out and go elsewhere.

I have BTW never thought of you all as "peons". All the so-called "peons" I've encountered were decent hard-working, honest people with realistic expectations. If I had to pick an adjective starting with a P, I suppose I would go with Philistines.

Have you ever asked yourself (given your high opinion of your own intelligence) why it is you expend so much energy on the thankless task of pestering someone who really is immune to your attentions? You remind me of guys who try to pick up women at a bar and when the women says no way in seven hells, even if you were the last man on earth, not even if pigs could fly would she so much as let you buy her a drink; who then replies - so you think I have a chance? Have you ever considered changing your name to Sisyphus?

JPSLotus said:

lol

So anyway Kesh, you can hold onto your delusions that you are somehow a philosopher, and continue repeating the thoughts of others as some sign that you possess a superior intelligence to us here. You remind me a lot of the college students who suddenly decide because they were exposed to some ideas they particularly liked, that it makes them a real worldly individual.

Oh yes, I forgot you don't form the basis of the forum per se, you just are the self-appointed nanny here to tell us who makes your cut, and who does not.

There is Kesh high up in the clouds dispensing wisdom and judgment upon us peons, telling us how we are disappointments, and simply don't understand things.

It's almost...as if, Kesh sees himself as a self-appointed god.

Well lads, perhaps we should be honored to be in the presence of such a magnanimous being.

Click to expand...

Seems to me that a large component in all this is both Kesh and his adversaries like to have the last word, like pretty much everyone who has ever posted on any internet forum, including me obviously. I don't think such an attitude necessarily implies moral turpitude on either side of the debate,

JPSLotus said:

lol

So anyway Kesh, you can hold onto your delusions that you are somehow a philosopher, and continue repeating the thoughts of others as some sign that you possess a superior intelligence to us here. You remind me a lot of the college students who suddenly decide because they were exposed to some ideas they particularly liked, that it makes them a real worldly individual.

Oh yes, I forgot you don't form the basis of the forum per se, you just are the self-appointed nanny here to tell us who makes your cut, and who does not.

There is Kesh high up in the clouds dispensing wisdom and judgment upon us peons, telling us how we are disappointments, and simply don't understand things.

It's almost...as if, Kesh sees himself as a self-appointed god.

Well lads, perhaps we should be honored to be in the presence of such a magnanimous being.

Click to expand...

michaelm said:

Seems to me that a large component in all this is both Kesh and his adversaries like to have the last word, like pretty much everyone who has ever posted on any internet forum, including me obviously. I don't think such an attitude necessarily implies moral turpitude on either side of the debate,

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Mike, I appreciate your input, thanx for calling out Kesh by name, you've been privy to the way this 'racing' thread played out and what led to its demise; i think you do the reality of this situation a disservice by characterizing it in this way and it's precisely why Kesh feels emboldened to flame threads: because of the insistance of stake holders not to be specific in regards who is instigating. What you're saying is, let it go, ignore it, don't get the last word. Which then gives Kesh license to continue to do exactly what you witnessed on this thread, allowing him the license to elicit a response while we hold our tongues. I ask you, for who should we bite our tongues? What you're not pointing out (as does the inevitable stake holder) is how this gets started. What you're doing is casting responsibility (which is indirect blame) on both the bully and the victims as equals in this situation. They are not equal instigators here, and given you have followed this particular thread from start to finish, you should know better as I can point out 3 specific examples where Kesh has solely been the instigator to elicit reaction, with the backdrop of specific truce has been made. Kesh has identified 5 members as unworthy for this community, does it seem odd to you that list keeps growing? Who might be the actual problem? You can review this thread, it was a lively discussion until Kesh started lashing out, which included you, Birdman, and Povol no less. Maybe at some point it will be 5+1+1+1+1 and so forth. I've also heard members say, well if we all just stick to racing opinions, there will be no problems, so then how and why was this thread grenaded? Will you point this out? Seems to be disengenious if stakeholders are going to chime in that they'd do so without specificity. Other than Keshav's Gang of Five (it used to be 2,then 3, then 4, now 5) the only member I've read call Kesh out specifically was Yamaka46. And he's now gone.

As Mdub and others pointed out, this 'racing' thread had gone fairly on topic in the absence of this supposed "adversary" gang of five (which destroy threads), then you observed this thread begin to deteriorate as Keshav became increasingly aggravated with the lack of traction for his position. It's all there for any stakeholder to go back and review. This is the specific point Kesh instigated the demise of the thread, as he has done so often in the past. Keshav began to lash out categorizing all (its his MO) those who dare disagree with him in the debate, but then he did something more, he began to invoke as part of the forum's problem, as he described, the "monolithic groupthink" (which he said to you) of dissenters to HIS position in debate. Yes, it wasn't enough that you, Bird, Povol, etal were presenting your position, he then had to suggest the problem is you guys act like the gang of four (now five apparently). Poor Kesh, nobody agreed with him, so he lashed out, directly at me and JK, by name. But I should hold my tongue, as in fact I had done since the "adversaries" decided to mitigate this flam war (not Kesh, who never intended to keep his word).

If we really do want to keep the threads clear, isn't it fair to point out 'who' is actually instigating flame wars in light of the fact those who have backed away have consistently kept their commitment EXCEPT Kesh?

Mike, you said, it's only rock and roll but you like it. In other words, you weren't going to drop the discussion because some might suggest the futility of it. So then, for whom should I bite my tongue?

michaelm said:

Seems to me that a large component in all this is both Kesh and his adversaries like to have the last word, like pretty much everyone who has ever posted on any internet forum, including me obviously. I don't think such an attitude necessarily implies moral turpitude on either side of the debate,

Click to expand...

My biggest issue is that he can't stop bad mouthing me and others then groups us together. He draws me back in every time. His last two post to jps have to bad mouth people that aren't even involved. I said mention me three times and its back on. Why can't he even go one ....... day without talking ....? I wish people like yourself and others would stand up and say something because this will just keep going round and round ruining this forum until someone gets band and more ........ is said. Stand up against me, thats fine. But I ask all of you to help put and end to this ....... .....

Keshav said:

I thought perhaps I could steer you towards a more satisfying and fulfilling use of your time - but alas - I was mistaken. If you obstinately insist on pecking away at your computer with the goal of getting the attention of someone with whom you are clearly obsessed, who am I to stop you? Obviously I am your raison d'etre. I woudn't want to deprive you of that.

The forum is not "filled" with people who are unintelligent. Those who fall into that category are limited to about 5 people, and they (despite delusions to the contrary) do not form the basis of the forum. They are merely bumps in the road of life that one must endure whilst searching for meaningful dialog. Great people still pop in from time to time with much to say and their good conversation is worth waiting for.

Click to expand...

Keshav said:

I was only making a helpful suggestion. Seems it's you and The Goat (Gang of angry trolls) that are always demanding I ignore all the nonsense they dole out and go elsewhere.

I have BTW never thought of you all as "peons". All the so-called "peons" I've encountered were decent hard-working, honest people with realistic expectations. If I had to pick an adjective starting with a P, I suppose I would go with Philistines.

Have you ever asked yourself (given your high opinion of your own intelligence) why it is you expend so much energy on the thankless task of pestering someone who really is immune to your attentions? You remind me of guys who try to pick up women at a bar and when the women says no way in seven hells, even if you were the last man on earth, not even if pigs could fly would she so much as let you buy her a drink; who then replies - so you think I have a chance? Have you ever considered changing your name to Sisyphus?

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Jumkie said:

Mike, you've been privy to the way this 'racing' thread played out and what led to its demise; i think you do the reality of this situation a disservice by characterizing it in this way and it's precisely why Kesh feels emboldened to flame threads: because of the insistance of stake holders not to be specific in regards to instigation. What you're saying is, let it go, ignore it, don't get the last word. Which then gives Kesh license to continue to do exactly what you witnessed on this thread, allowing him the license to illicit a response while we hold our tongues. I ask you, for who should we bite out tongues? What you're not pointing out (as does the inevitable stake holder) is how this gets started. What you're doing is casting responsibility (which is indirect blame) on both the bully and the victims as equals in this situation. They are not equal instigators here, and given you have followed this particular thread from start to finish, you should know better as I can point out 3 specific examples where Kesh has solely been the instigator to illicited reaction, with the backdrop of specific truce has been made. Kesh has identified 5 members as unworthy for this community, does it seem odd to you that list keeps growing? Who might be the actual problem? You can review this thread, it was a lively discussion until Kesh started lashing out, which included you, Birdman, and Povol no less. Maybe at some point it will be 5+1+1+1+1 and so forth. I've also heard members say, well if we all just stick to racing opinions, there will be no problems, so then how and why was this thread grenaded? Will you point this out? Seems to be disengenious if stakeholders are going to chime in that they'd do so without specificity. Other than Keshav's Gang of Five (it used to be 2,then 3, then 4, now 5) the only member I've read call Kesh out specifically was Yamaka46. And he's now gone.

As Mdub and others pointed out, this 'racing' thread had gone fairly on topic in the absence of this supposed "adversary" gang of five (which destroy threads), then you observed this thread begin to deteriorate as Keshav became increasingly aggravated with the lack of traction for his position. It's all there for any stakeholder to go back and review. This is the specific point Kesh instigated the demise of the thread, as he has done so often in the past. Keshav began to lash out categorizing all (its his MO) those who dare disagree with him in the debate, but then he did something more, he began to invoke as part of the forum's problem, as he described, the "monolithic groupthink" (which he said to you) of dissenters to HIS position in debate. Yes, it wasn't enough that you, Bird, Povol, etal were presenting your position, he then had to suggest the problem is you guys act like the gang of four (now five apparently). Poor Kesh, nobody agreed with him, so he lashed out, directly at me and JK, by name. But I should hold my tongue, as in fact I had done since the "adversaries" decided to mitigate this flam war (not Kesh, who never intended to keep his word).

If we really do want to keep the threads clear, isn't it fair to point out 'who' is actually instigating flame wars in light of the fact those who have backed away have consistently kept their commitment EXCEPT Kesh?

Mike, you said, it's only rock and roll but you like it. In other words, you weren't going to drop the discussion because some might suggest the futility of it. So then, for whom should I bite my tongue?

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Just to be clear I was trying to be polite; I was saying that everyone in these forums always wants the last word, as I very definitely do and demonstrated that I do in regard to the MM not passing Jorge at Valencia issue, but would agree Kesh is the one who mainly gets bent about it without acknowledging that he does it as much or more than anyone.

michaelm said:

Just to be clear I was trying to be polite; I was saying that everyone in these forums always wants the last word, as I very definitely do and demonstrated that I do in regard to the MM not passing Jorge at Valencia issue, but would agree Kesh is the one who mainly gets bent about it without acknowledging that he does it as much or more than anyone.

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Ah yes. Thanks.

MdubSTYLIE said:

My biggest issue is that he can't stop bad mouthing me and others then groups us together. He draws me back in every time. His last two post to jps have to bad mouth people that aren't even involved. I said mention me three times and its back on. Why can't he even go one ....... day without talking ....? I wish people like yourself and others would stand up and say something because this will just keep going round and round ruining this forum until someone gets band and more ........ is said. Stand up against me, thats fine. But I ask all of you to help put and end to this ....... .....

Click to expand...

This is exactly the sentiment I expressed to Duc. Michael M as you can see since I was given my username back I have conducted myself appropriately and try to stay above the fray. I don't want these flame wars. Who is the one who repeatedly has baited me to light the match. Who is the one who constantly throws out barbs and insults others intelligence.
Mike I consider you the most pragmatic and intelligent member on the forum, outside of Arabb. I have never heard either one of you insult another member because you feel they are less intelligent than you. In fact I've never heard you pass any sort of judgment on another member. That's probably because you are both humble and decent people that don't feel the need to make others feel inferior. How many times have I given you .... about stoner. Not one of those times did you lash out at me personally.
Look back on this thread alone and you will see that he insulted numerous people's intelligence and passed countless judgments. I thought the debate on this thread was rousing and interesting until one person cried foul and lashed out at everyone including you. Groupthink, poisonous vibe, the big three. You are mistaken if you think this is your average ... for tat internet ego at play. This is a poisonous, nasty .... talking curmudgeon who only purpose is to so discord amongst those that don't agree with him. It's ironic that he hates Donald Trump so much because I can't think of anyone that talks more .... about those that disagree with them, than those two

Jumkie said:

Ah yes. Thanks.

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I did think Kesh had a defensible viewpoint, although not one I agreed with myself, in regard to whether MM or the bike was the cause of MM's early season woes.

I got angry myself (over it now) in the recent debate, it is annoying to have someone "agree to disagree" yet continue to put forward their argument without rebutting your argument or answering rebuttals of their argument.

michaelm said:

I did think Kesh had a defensible viewpoint, although not one I agreed with myself, in regard to whether MM or the bike was the cause of MM's early season woes.

I got angry myself (over it now) in the recent debate, it is annoying to have someone "agree to disagree" yet continue to put forward their argument without rebutting your argument or answering rebuttals of their argument.

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Michael, this thread went south when Kesh started thinking that the nature of the Circuit Ricardo Tormo was a subjective matter open to debate. He refused to acknowledge any evidence that the circuit was not conducive to overtaking, instead opting to is a mixed weather race, as a primary example.

Since then he has spent time insulting various posters...even when he claims he is not saying anything negative about other posters, he still manages to get a barb or two in.

He's nothing more than an internet troll who gets off on creating dissension.

This topic will die off, then he'll start the same ........ in another topic within time.

People who are incapable of admitting they are wrong are not people that bring anything good to the table whatever the subject may be.

JPSLotus said:

Dude, seriously what the .... is wrong with you?

OXLEY CLEARLY STATES 5 OUT OF THE LAST 9 RACES THERE HAD BEEN NO OVERTAKING AT THE FRONT.

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Everything was civil and no rudeness occurred until this point. After that the thread went to hell and everyone started in with the insults. All those who agreed not to provoke fights started egging JPL on to get ruder and more insulting and while (in their minds) adhering the agreement - began to make oblique references while not being honest enough to address me directly. JPL was the proxy for the hate-clan and little by little they all began chiming in because haters gonna hate.

I never expected any of the clan to be any less hateful, nor did I ever expect that they could tolerate anyone being entitled to having an opinion that didn't fit their narrative.

After all the lies that have been told about me, there was no way any of them were going to apologize. It's a "Thin Blue Line" dynamic where cops, no matter how honest they are only show support for other cops, even after they've broken every vow they ever made. It was only a matter of how long before they would double down on the same old tired distortions and fabricated rationalizations for their pretended sanctimonious umbrage; any excuse, no matter how absurd or transparent, to lash out. Because for some people intolerance is a way of life. I think if it were just one person, it might have died a natural death, but they each supported one another in the delusion that I was the forum devil, and like primitives who worshipped rocks and trees and feared the moon - hating Keshav became a primitive bond, through which reasons to appeal or to make peace could not penetrate. You don't have to be Margaret Meade to to understand that expecting them to change is like expecting dogs stopping howling at the moon.

Keshav said:

Have you ever asked yourself (given your high opinion of your own intelligence) why it is you expend so much energy on the thankless task of pestering someone who really is immune to your attentions? You remind me of guys who try to pick up women at a bar and when the women says no way in seven hells, even if you were the last man on earth, not even if pigs could fly would she so much as let you buy her a drink; who then replies - so you think I have a chance? Have you ever considered changing your name to Sisyphus?

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I'm not an intelligent guy Kesh, so it's difficult to have a high opinion of something that doesn't exist. If it takes me a couple of minutes to type something, is that really expending a lot of energy? Not at all.

But Kesh, what you ask me is what you should be asking yourself, as well as asking why you are incapable of ever admitting to being wrong.

Keshav said:

Everything was civil and no rudeness occurred until this point. After that the thread went to hell and everyone started in with the insults. All those who agreed not to provoke fights started egging JPL on to get ruder and more insulting and while (in their minds) adhering the agreement - began to make oblique references while not being honest enough to address me directly. JPL was the proxy for the hate-clan and little by little they all began chiming in because haters gonna hate.

I never expected any of the clan to be any less hateful, nor did I ever expect that they could tolerate anyone being entitled to having an opinion that didn't fit their narrative.

After all the lies that have been told about me, there was no way any of them were going to apologize. It's a "Thin Blue Line" dynamic where cops, no matter how honest they are only show support for other cops, even after they've broken every vow they ever made. It was only a matter of how long before they would double down on the same old tired distortions and fabricated rationalizations for their pretended sanctimonious umbrage; any excuse, no matter how absurd or transparent, to lash out. Because for some people intolerance is a way of life. I think if it were just one person, it might have died a natural death, but they each supported one another in the delusion that I was the forum devil, and like primitives who worshipped rocks and trees and feared the moon - hating Keshav became a primitive bond, through which reasons to appeal or to make peace could not penetrate. You don't have to be Margaret Meade to to understand that expecting them to change is like expecting dogs stopping howling at the moon.

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Oh for ..... sakes.

Whatever dude. Same .... with you, you go back to the usual spiel. Awesome. Congrats. Fantastic. Superb. Something to be proud of.

What's all this .... about hate , sounds like someone has a complex. I simply said some people don't know their ... from a hole in the ground when it comes to Motogp racing and the tracks it takes place on. If that's hate, I guess I'm a hater. Oh well, like I said, that phrase rolls of me like water on a ducks back.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

This is exactly the sentiment I expressed to Duc. Michael M as you can see since I was given my username back I have conducted myself appropriately and try to stay above the fray. I don't want these flame wars. Who is the one who repeatedly has baited me to light the match. Who is the one who constantly throws out barbs and insults others intelligence.
Mike I consider you the most pragmatic and intelligent member on the forum, outside of Arabb. I have never heard either one of you insult another member because you feel they are less intelligent than you. In fact I've never heard you pass any sort of judgment on another member. That's probably because you are both humble and decent people that don't feel the need to make others feel inferior. How many times have I given you .... about stoner. Not one of those times did you lash out at me personally.
Look back on this thread alone and you will see that he insulted numerous people's intelligence and passed countless judgments. I thought the debate on this thread was rousing and interesting until one person cried foul and lashed out at everyone including you. Groupthink, poisonous vibe, the big three. You are mistaken if you think this is your average ... for tat internet ego at play. This is a poisonous, nasty .... talking curmudgeon who only purpose is to so discord amongst those that don't agree with him. It's ironic that he hates Donald Trump so much because I can't think of anyone that talks more .... about those that disagree with them, than those two

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Glad to see you back and was upset your alter ego was banned. I would never ban anyone, let alone you.

I never took offence with our Casey Stoner discussions, you were disagreeing with my opinion not maligning my character, gave me the opportunity to argue which I obviously like doing, and there was always humor on both sides.

I am a very definite genuine fan of both gp bike racing and Casey Stoner, but hope I do have some sense of humor.

Sense of humor is very important. We are all going to disagree at some point. And as this thread showed it was fun until a certain specific level of frustration set in leading to our resident instigator, then this thread was ultimately grenaded. Humor is an element that can bring levity to a thread when it starts to get ugly (though I think this one was doomed) and it's something I've always appreciated about JK and Mdub. I'll admit, sometimes it was cringe worthy other times sublime; but I also admit I'm a humor ....... Im the argumentative type (yeah i know, understatement). The 5th Anal Award show is going on Mike, you should have a gander. Btw, I'm going to take my comments about Marquez and his racing tactics, suspect integrity, and the possible reinvented #93 (ominous if its any indication for 2016) into the Superprestigo thread, I think this thread has run its course, unfortunately. Not that we still don't have pages and pages to add to the subject. Haha .... our lives.

Its only rock and roll...

michaelm said:

Glad to see you back and was upset your alter ego was banned. I would never ban anyone, let alone you.

I never took offence with our Casey Stoner discussions, you were disagreeing with my opinion not maligning my character, gave me the opportunity to argue which I obviously like doing, and there was always humor on both sides.

I am a very definite genuine fan of both gp bike racing and Casey Stoner, but hope I do have some sense of humor.

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I have a major gripe with you also Eminem. Every time we argue I have to spend a half hour looking up the words you used. Its annoying.

Scan through all the threads where I've posted lo these many years and you will find that I have many many times copped to being wrong.

I only do so with the proviso - that I am in fact wrong. It would be a travesty for me to "admit" being wrong, when I firmly believe that I am not. What you are suggesting is that I pretend to admit being wrong - just to satisfy your need to give the appearance that you are making me bend to your will. It would be the equivalent of Obama "admitting" that he is a secret Muslim just to make the Republicans happy. I don't believe in appeasing people who only see one side of the situation.

I do not see myself as a victim. I just refuse to give into badgering and heckling and will not give up my right to have an opinion just for the sake of conforming to what others think. If I did - you would in the end - only have less respect for me.

I wish you'd been around in 2007 and through the Stoner years. Other than me and Michael and a few "enlightened" others, this place was (other than Jumkie who was hoping for a Kentucky Kid Komeback) this place was Bopper Central. You would be amazed at how much abuse came my way for championing Stoner. Stylie was always in the vanguard of Stoner haters, and constantly concocted insanely implausible reasons why Stoner was undeserving much they way others have confected nonsensical reasons why I should be scorned. Roger was the worst of the bunch... and tho I don't think he would admit it to himself, it was the underlying reason why there was so much tension between us two - long before the fateful days following Laguna Seca. Every time Stoner won another race it was like a dagger in their hearts and the haters lashed out accordingly. So this scenario is nothing new around here. Some folks just need to have someone to hate.

I want very much to put an end to this and would be happy to let you (all of you) have the last word - if it meant we could move on and treat each other with civility. But that's as far as I go.