The Untouchables

RCV600RR said:

It's like banging your head against a wall, mate. No matter what you say, they will misconstrue it because they find it so difficult to fathom anything other than an 'all or nothing' argument.

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You agree with insanity, and we are supposed to decipher your logic? You and J4rn0 et al bang on about tooth fairy and santa clause and we are supposed to argue 'logically' against that and convince you? How is that supposed to work exactly?

Jumkie said:

Where did Juan Derribar go? Why is it when I click on the post you quoted him it doesn't link me to his posts?

Powerslide mods, is there an explination?

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Ahh man, sorry Juanito.

I guess the other you pissed someone off. See you when your back.

RCV600RR said:

It's like banging your head against a wall, mate. No matter what you say, it gets consistently misconstrued. It seems that too many posters find it difficult to fathom anything other than an 'all or nothing' argument ["Rossi must be hung!" or "Marquez must be hung!"]. Nuance is lacking.

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Same question as what was asked of J4rn0. Of what was Marquez guilty, and how should he have been punished?

RCV600RR said:

It's like banging your head against a wall, mate. No matter what you say, it gets consistently misconstrued.

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I said it immediately after the facts, but even after two weeks I feel the same: both Rossi and Marquez should have been punished at Sepang.

Its virtually impossible to misinterpret or misconstrue that statement.

Gaz said:

No, it is you that does not understand the onus of proof and the difference between opinion and factual guilt.

The comment passed by Webb (and quoted by J4) uses the term 'we believe' and thus, my analogy of 'I believe that pigs can fly'.

However, had Webb have stated 'we found', that is a finding just as the second component of my analogy.

You mention circumstantial evidence, all good, but what circumstantial evidence as circumstantial evidence is not he said/she said which seems by many to be acceptable within the context of Sepang?

Circumstantial evidence certainly can be used to convict an offender, but you need multiple and varied levels of circumstantial evidence that accrued lead one to make an 'informed judgement'.

As an example, circumstantial evidence in the case at hand would have been that Rossi was able to lap faster after Marquez fell than he was able to lap whilst in the duel with Marquez. Factual evidence is that Rossi did not lap faster after the incident than he was before and thus, circumstantial evidence could then be seen as not supporting that MM was slowing down VR at all.

I certainly do not expect you to understand as your side is well known, but it has nothing to do with hate as you and many like you wish to espouse, it has to do with a request for cold, hard, factual and supportive evidence of the claims

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i'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
the circumstances are that that many passes that early in a race is very rare. along with that mm was on jlo's wheel 25+ laps and never tried to late brake or show him a wheel. Then fought when DP came thru. but this has been discussed. And all of this is okay according to the RULES. AND THAT'S OKAY.
but here is what it comes down to.
Rossi lost no fans.
Jlo lost no fans.
MM might have lost fans, might not have. But he did lose millions of potential fans. And will get tons of .... for years to come.
Booing a rider incessantly is not against the RULES, so I expect you not to complain one bit when it happens since booing is NOT against the RULES.
It's all good.

steeeeeve said:

i'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
the circumstances are that that many passes that early in a race is very rare. along with that mm was on jlo's wheel 25+ laps and never tried to late brake or show him a wheel. Then fought when DP came thru. but this has been discussed. And all of this is okay according to the RULES. AND THAT'S OKAY.
but here is what it comes down to.
Rossi lost no fans.
Jlo lost no fans.
MM might have lost fans, might not have. But he did lose millions of potential fans. And will get tons of .... for years to come.
Booing a rider incessantly is not against the RULES, so I expect you not to complain one bit when it happens since booing is NOT against the RULES.
It's all good.

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The only fact is that Mike Webb, from his relatively enlightened perspective, decided that MM's actions required a public sanction from RD.

All of the emotional crap about who lost fans or who didn't and confected aphorisms about who "did loose" this or "will get" that is pure fantasy: wishful thinking to justify personal prejudice.

steeeeeve said:

i'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

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By all means, disagree and remain as the incorrect one ............. all good on my side

And have no fear, I will sleep well at night

steeeeeve said:

the circumstances are that that many passes that early in a race is very rare.

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Nope, suggest that you watch Moto3 or Moto2.

There are often many more overtakes in the first few laps than there was between MM and your god, VR.

steeeeeve said:

along with that mm was on jlo's wheel 25+ laps and never tried to late brake or show him a wheel. Then fought when DP came thru. but this has been discussed.

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All explained by those involved numerous times and (to quote J4), many a respected journalist and/or ex-rider has placed an opinion supportive of MM's action (sure, some have not, but hey, if we they all agreed it would be boring)

steeeeeve said:

but here is what it comes down to.
Rossi lost no fans.
Jlo lost no fans.
MM might have lost fans, might not have. But he did lose millions of potential fans. And will get tons of .... for years to come.

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Rossi - likely lost some fans but gained more due to the publicity that the dummy spit and subsequent actions bought as the media made him out to be the victim and/or underdog, and people like underdogs
JL- kidding right? There has been a large and concerted effort to diminish his standing by many of the yellow army (fans and some media) and it has been said that his general fan base has dropped slightly as a result and yet (IMO) he is the innocent one in all of this.
MM - at present more affected with a drop in fans but I suspect by the first race he will have many more fans than he finished 2015 as people forget, move on or simply get sick of the others poor me.

The real winner will be Pedrosa who has been impeccable in his actions throughout the shenanigans

steeeeeve said:

Booing a rider incessantly is not against the RULES, so I expect you not to complain one bit when it happens since booing is NOT against the RULES.
It's all good.

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Booing is not against the rules .............. but then, dickheaded brainless bogans would not follow any rules anyway and would continue to boo.

Booing is the realm or domain of people who checked their brain in when they left the house and subsequently are unable to think for themselves and instead are mindless sheep

And that does not matter who is booed.

Cool Blue said:

The only fact is that Mike Webb, from his relatively enlightened perspective, decided that MM's actions required a public sanction from RD.

All of the emotional crap about who lost fans or who didn't and confected aphorisms about who "did loose" this or "will get" that is pure fantasy: wishful thinking to justify personal prejudice.

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Except he wasn't actually sanctioned, he received no penalty as far as I know, Webb basically merely used MM's supposedly questionable "motives" as justification for Rossi's penalty being lighter than it might have been, whilst acknowledging MM had not raced illegally.

steeeeeve said:

i'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
the circumstances are that that many passes that early in a race is very rare. along with that mm was on jlo's wheel 25+ laps and never tried to late brake or show him a wheel. Then fought when DP came thru. but this has been discussed. And all of this is okay according to the RULES. AND THAT'S OKAY.
but here is what it comes down to.
Rossi lost no fans.
Jlo lost no fans.
MM might have lost fans, might not have. But he did lose millions of potential fans. And will get tons of .... for years to come.
Booing a rider incessantly is not against the RULES, so I expect you not to complain one bit when it happens since booing is NOT against the RULES.
It's all good.

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My assessment of MM is that he will fairly definitely not be worried about being booed, this rather will likely embolden him, if he raced as you claim in the last 2 races after being slated by your boy.

So his punishment will be to not have that certain element among Rossi fandom transfer to him on Valentino's retirement?. There are those who would not see this as a punishment. Perhaps it will cost him some money, but he is going to make plenty of that anyway, particularly since Honda who would appear to care little about the popularity of their riders are his employers who pay his salary and he likely has more than sufficient sponsorship from Spanish companies.

michaelm said:

Except he wasn't actually sanctioned, he received no penalty as far as I know, Webb basically merely used MM's supposedly questionable "motives" as justification for Rossi's penalty being lighter than it might have been, whilst acknowledging MM had not raced illegally.

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It depends what you mean by sanctioned. Probably just me but I differentiate between sanctioned and penalised. Maybe you can suggest a more appropriate word: admonished maybe? Anyway, my point is that he chose to make a public, negative remark that could be interpreted as some kind of deterrent or warning.

It's like I mentioned in a previous post: because the boundaries of the rules in this area are so subjective, perhaps Webb is defending the boundaries from the inside as well as the outside.

The smart way for him to do his job IMHO is to develop culture and that requires conversations (open and closed) that are not just black and white and not "thunderbolts" delivered from on high: particularly since the rules are grey (probably for good reason).

It's fascinating that Rossi lost no fans over this, that is quite typical of religious extremism. In normal circumstances the doping, cheating, juicing, lipsinging, mental breakdown, plagiarist, soar losing celebrity athlete author gets jerseys, CDs, DVDs, book burning parties. Even when the cult leader does something extraordinarily unsavory the followers rally even more staunchly. Circle the wagons. That's why I said, even had Rossi gone into the garage and brandished a firearm and shot Marquez down after all those awful clean passes, too many apparently, the Rossi fans would have rationalies, well the mothafucker had it coming. Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Scientology, got nothing on Bopperislamtians.

Rossi goes Val - Qaeda and the faithful line up to put on the Yellow vest. 46 virgins await.

Was there not a story (or rumour) that alluded to MM having been spoken with prior to Valencia by RD where it was made clear that they were 'keeping an eye on him'?

Gaz said:

Was there not a story (or rumour) that alluded to MM having been spoken with prior to Valencia by RD where it was made clear that they were 'keeping an eye on him'?

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If so, this ironically probably worked against Valentino. I can well believe he was told not to take out a contender with a rash move. If he or his camp possibly foresaw this, he really did win the "mind games".

Jumkie said:

It's fascinating that Rossi lost no fans over this, that is quite typical of religious extremism. In normal circumstances the doping, cheating, juicing, lipsinging, mental breakdown, plagiarist, soar losing celebrity athlete author gets jerseys, CDs, DVDs, book burning parties. Even when the cult leader does something extraordinarily unsavory the followers rally even more staunchly. Circle the wagons. That's why I said, even had Rossi gone into the garage and brandished a firearm and shot Marquez down after all those awful clean passes, too many apparently, the Rossi fans would have rationalies, well the mothafucker had it coming. Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Scientology, got nothing on Bopperislamtians.

Rossi goes Val - Qaeda and the faithful line up to put on the Yellow vest. 46 virgins await.

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What's on tap?

Dr No said:

What's on tap?

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.

Jumkie said:

You agree with insanity, and we are supposed to decipher your logic? You and J4rn0 et al bang on about tooth fairy and santa clause and we are supposed to argue 'logically' against that and convince you? How is that supposed to work exactly?

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Hey, Jums, are you talking to yourself as usual? RCV600 here (who was replying to me btw) said nothing about "logic".

He said: "Nuance is lacking." Nuance as opposed to the black/white fundamentalist views, of which you are the most typical example here.

It's silly that (in another post, let me reply here) you are trying to depict anybody who is not proposing to hang Rossi as a "cult follower". You know who is the person who's mentioning Rossi the most here, even out of context? YOU.

Someone speaks of tires, or of regulations or anything, and out of the blue comes a Jumkie post saying "they'll certainly find a way to favor Rossi". Hahaha, c'mon. You are obsessed man... As I happened to say before, you certainly have an emotionsl (negative) attachment for Rossi that equals and surpasses that of his most captive fans!

There are many other things happening in MotoGP, that aren't Rossi related. See if you can focus on these other things. It will be good for you (and for most of us as well).

You sound too much like a man on a mission, or even a preacher. Relax.
I know you won't, too bad for you.

Jumkie said:

It's fascinating that Rossi lost no fans over this, that is quite typical of religious extremism. In normal circumstances the doping, cheating, juicing, lipsinging, mental breakdown, plagiarist, soar losing celebrity athlete author gets jerseys, CDs, DVDs, book burning parties. Even when the cult leader does something extraordinarily unsavory the followers rally even more staunchly. Circle the wagons. That's why I said, even had Rossi gone into the garage and brandished a firearm and shot Marquez down after all those awful clean passes, too many apparently, the Rossi fans would have rationalies, well the mothafucker had it coming. Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Scientology, got nothing on Bopperislamtians.

Rossi goes Val - Qaeda and the faithful line up to put on the Yellow vest. 46 virgins await.

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I think you nearly nailed it here Jum. Except you got it backwards. You see, he didn't dope, brandish a firearm, or anything so unsavory. He slowed down and went a bit wide. Nope, I'm not going to completely condemn him for that. And you lot want to bury him for it. Who is overreacting?
By reading what you fellas write, if i didn't know better, I'd think he'd ghost ridden his M1 into a pack of orphans.
But I hear MM is desperate for his relationship with VR to be repaired. He's feeling the pain already. Haven't heard to much from VR. Hilarious. MM probably should have braked late at least once against JLO. Shown him a wheel at least once. But Hey! Maybe MM will thrive on the adversity. Ya never know.

steeeeeve said:

I think you nearly nailed it here Jum. Except you got it backwards. You see, he didn't dope, brandish a firearm, or anything so unsavory. He slowed down and went a bit wide. Nope, I'm not going to completely condemn him for that. And you lot want to bury him for it. Who is overreacting?
By reading what you fellas write, if i didn't know better, I'd think he'd ghost ridden his M1 into a pack of orphans.
But I hear MM is desperate for his relationship with VR to be repaired. He's feeling the pain already. Haven't heard to much from VR. Hilarious. MM probably should have braked late at least once against JLO. Shown him a wheel at least once. But Hey! Maybe MM will thrive on the adversity. Ya never know.

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In motorcycle racing my friend, when you deliberately try to eliminate a fellow competitor by crashing him out--or as you call it "went a bit wide" it's considered the worst thing you can do, hence why it's never done. I'm laughing just on your description of what he did actually buddy. That's awesome.

If MM is trying to repair the relationship as you say, it says a lot about VR.

I can't honestly think of anyone in any sport that has violated the sacred principle of competition and come out the victim. Maybe Tanya Harding is the hero after all.

Jumkie said:

In motorcycle racing my friend, when you deliberately try to eliminate a fellow competitor by crashing him out--or as you call it "went a bit wide" it's considered the worst thing you can do, hence why it's never done. I'm laughing just on your description of what he did actually buddy. That's awesome.

If MM is trying to repair the relationship as you say, it says a lot about VR.

I can't honestly think of anyone in any sport that has violated the sacred principle of competition and come out the victim. Maybe Tanya Harding is the hero after all.

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I don't believe he was deliberately trying to eliminate a fellow competitor. I do believe he was in a bit of panic mode because he was being relentlessly attacked on the track. The passes were clean because VR took evasive maneuvers. Had he not, there would have been contact. He was the one who was desperate to not make contact, crash, and lose the championship. Had MM made an evasive maneuver, they wouldn't have made contact. He did the opposite. It's not rocket science.
Unless you already hate VR that slow wide move isn't a deal breaker. It's not uncommon to have disdain for someone with this much success. People often want to tear people down when they are on that high of level.
Yeah. Says a lot about MM too. "Hey! Now i'm done ....... with your Championship, turns out i'm not so popular and losing .... tons of cash. Can we be best pals now?" Gotta love it!

steeeeeve said:

I don't believe he was deliberately trying to eliminate a fellow competitor. I do believe he was in a bit of panic mode because he was being relentlessly attacked on the track. The passes were clean because VR took evasive maneuvers. Had he not, there would have been contact. He was the one who was desperate to not make contact, crash, and lose the championship. Had MM made an evasive maneuver, they wouldn't have made contact. He did the opposite. It's not rocket science.
Unless you already hate VR that slow wide move isn't a deal breaker. It's not uncommon to have disdain for someone with this much success. People often want to tear people down when they are on that high of level.
Yeah. Says a lot about MM too. "Hey! Now i'm done ....... with your Championship, turns out i'm not so popular and losing .... tons of cash. Can we be best pals now?" Gotta love it!

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I'm sure you don't "believe" Rossi did anything wrong.

Well, Rossi said it was deliberate, despite what you believe buddy. He admitted to putting into action a maneuver antithetical to racing which ultimately led to a fellow competitor crashing. For him to later defend his action by saying he didn't mean for the fellow competitor the crash is irrelevant. Especially considering that he was well aware his actions could lead to further sanctions if the organisers had any integrity. He was in the position to have to lie to weasel out of what he did, not an uncommon predicament for perpetrators. If I shoot a gun into the crowd and then say well I didn't mean to hurt anybody it's an absurd disconnect. Even more of a disconnect for the audience to believe it. But then again this is Rossi talking and his particular audience believing.

Rossi was in danger from clean racing? Then what must you thought of Iannone's racing at Phillip Island? Damn criminal behavior! So Kung Fu Rossi was in fear for his life so he executed similar overtaking? Wait wait, this is the guy that famously said "this is racing"?